Buying and selling rules. Has to be said.

[Fish]

Hello all,
I hope that I am the only one that has had this problem but I have had a bad experience with not one but two different people in the buy/sell forums.
As many of you know, I recently got out of the hobby and thought it would be easiest to sell my equipment here because I wouldn't have to worry about shipping etc.

First it was a buyer who agreed to purchase my tank and canister filter. Because we had a contract, I turned down the second person who offered to buy them. A while later, I received this message from the buyer: "um sorry i am no longer interested , but good luck with the sale thanks". Of course I was frustrated but thankfully, coffeebeans stepped up and bought the items and had them shipped all the way to Toronto (thanks again).
Then I was contacted by another buyer who agreed to buy my external pump and even set up an appointment to pick it up. The day went past and I sent pm after pm with no response. Finally, I found the buyer was actively posting in a thread where he was TRYING TO DECIDE IF HE SHOULD GET A SUBMERSIBLE OR EXTERNAL PUMP ???? I asked him if he was still interested and if I needed to continue holding the pump for him. He again assured me he was. More time went by and today I got a message from him stating: "Sorry man I have come across a pump that better suits my purpose. I will not requirte the one you have. I apologise."
This whole thing has just about driven me around the bend!

For anyone who isn't clear on how it works. A contract is binding the moment that there is an acceptance to a live offer to exchange something of value. Of course I am not interested in small claims court or wasting any more time on the matter - but it is feffing rude.

When you commit to buy something at an agreed upon price, the time for shopping around is over. The time for haggleing is over. The time for changing you mind is over.
For those situations where you are not sure what you want, or you don't want to pay the set price, the solution is simple: don't agree to buy it.
It's unfortunate that I have run into problems like this in a community like Canreef. I'm just giving up and selling the pump on ebay to a complete stranger in another country - it'll probably be less hassle.

There. That feels better. ( :

- Chad

[Nate]

I agree, but on a more light hearted note...I am not the best seller in the world either...but lots of commitments and a little number of people actually come through...

happens in a couple of the "hobbyist" forums I visit, and will probably never get better.

Nate

[Skimmerking]

Hello all,
I hope that I am the only one that has had this problem but I have had a bad experience with not one but two different people in the buy/sell forums.
As many of you know, I recently got out of the hobby and thought it would be easiest to sell my equipment here because I wouldn't have to worry about shipping etc.

First it was a buyer who agreed to purchase my tank and canister filter. Because we had a contract, I turned down the second person who offered to buy them. A while later, I received this message from the buyer: "um sorry i am no longer interested , but good luck with the sale thanks". Of course I was frustrated but thankfully, coffeebeans stepped up and bought the items and had them shipped all the way to Toronto (thanks again).
Then I was contacted by another buyer who agreed to buy my external pump and even set up an appointment to pick it up. The day went past and I sent pm after pm with no response. Finally, I found the buyer was actively posting in a thread where he was TRYING TO DECIDE IF HE SHOULD GET A SUBMERSIBLE OR EXTERNAL PUMP ???? I asked him if he was still interested and if I needed to continue holding the pump for him. He again assured me he was. More time went by and today I got a message from him stating: "Sorry man I have come across a pump that better suits my purpose. I will not requirte the one you have. I apologise."
This whole thing has just about driven me around the bend!

For anyone who isn't clear on how it works. A contract is binding the moment that there is an acceptance to a live offer to exchange something of value. Of course I am not interested in small claims court or wasting any more time on the matter - but it is feffing rude.

When you commit to buy something at an agreed upon price, the time for shopping around is over. The time for haggleing is over. The time for changing you mind is over.
For those situations where you are not sure what you want, or you don't want to pay the set price, the solution is simple: don't agree to buy it.
It's unfortunate that I have run into problems like this in a community like Canreef. I'm just giving up and selling the pump on ebay to a complete stranger in another country - it'll probably be less hassle.

There. That feels better. ( :

- Chad

Chad I agree all we have is the words from other people on the board that "YES" famous words i will get it. But you have to look at it in this way
it's not a a actual contract :idea: Its a word of mouth not trying to spark fire here between us.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/contract

the real deal on the word contract

and yes I hate when people go back on there word. SO this is for the persons out there that don't follow the right steps

[AJ_77]

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract :

Contrary to common wisdom, an informal exchange of promises can still be binding and legally as valid as a written contract. A spoken contract is often called an "oral contract", not a "verbal contract." Any contract that uses words, spoken or written, is a verbal contract. Thus, all oral contracts and written contracts are verbal contracts. This is in contrast to a "non-verbal, non-oral contract," also known as "a contract implied by the acts of the parties."



and, from Samuel Goldwyn:
"A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on."



fwiw, I've had sellers back out of deals, too. - not that I'm an angel... :neutral:

[Fish]

Asmodeus,
Haha, actually though it is an "actual contract". I guess it is good that I posted here because it appears that a lot of people have misconceptions. Word of mouth isn't the opposite of contract, in fact - it is most common type of contract. There are very few types of contracts that MUST be in writing in order to be binding, and they are listed in the Sale of Goods act and Statute of Frauds. The most common example is that any sale of real estate MUST be in writing to be binding. This is a text book example of a legally binding agreement (because I got it from a textbook):

Ned: I will wash your car for $20
Jan: Ok

Interestingly, I do have both the offers and acceptances in "writing" (in my pm box). This is more of a kettle of fish than I had hoped to get into but offers and acceptances made via electronic means (such as emails or our pms) are subject to a rule called the "postal rule" or "mail box rule". Usually, acceptance is effective in creating a contract where and when the offerer has received notice that their offer has been accepted. With non-instantanious methouds like email though, acceptance is effective where and when the offeree sends it. A textbook example to illustrate:

"a contract is formed in Saskatoon as soon as I drop my acceptance letter into the mailbox, even though you will not receive that letter in Charlottetown for several days."
and
"a contract is formed as soon as I send you an acceptance email, even if you were away from your computer and did not recieve notice until you returned to work two days later."

Lastly, because you were a little confused about what you called 'word of mouth' contracts, I should clarify that oral promises are not contracts unless there is an exchange of value.
eg,

Ned: I will wash your car
------------------
Not a contract


Ned: I will wash your car
Jan: I will give you $20
------------------
Contract

There, that is the "real deal on contracts". Hope it was easy to understand.
I should add that I am just trying to educate people on how business should be properly conducted. I am not an angel myself and I have backed out of a contract that I had with a good friend to buy riccordia because I ended up selling my aquarium and wasn't going to have any place to put it. Despite how inconveniant it would have been for me to honor that contract, I was still wrong for breaking it. Fortunately the opportunity came up that I was able to offer him a container of 'reef cilli' as compensation for his trouble.


- Chad

[Buccaneer]

Maybe in the future a deposit would make the " contract " more binding to the buyer and thus less likely to try and " back-out " of the deal. Most people now have paypal so it is a easy thing IMO.

If no deposit is made then technically the item is still for sale and no frustration on the sellers part :wink:

[Fish]

Steve,
Huh???? Again, if we were speaking "technically", a deposit has nothing to do with whether an item is still for sale or not. As explained earlier, a contract is binding the moment that a live offer to exchange items of value is accepted. (but you can chose to word your offer so that acceptance must be indicated by way of deposit. heck, you can even specify in the offer that acceptance must be made by carrier pidgeon).
But your post does raise a good point. Just as a buyer is responsible to provide the agreed upon payment, a seller is responsible to provide the agreed upon item. If I had asked for a deposit in my offer, then yes, I would have a contract with the first person to pay that deposit. If I just offered my pump for sale (like I did) and agreed to sell it to a buyer... and then agreed to sell it to another buyer, because the first hadn't payed me a deposit and "technically the item is still for sale", I would be on the hook to provide a pump to both buyers who accepted my offer. Because I only have one pump, my options would be: buy a second pump to resell and fulfill my contractual obligations, or break my contract with one of the buyers and just hope he wasn't a miserable SOB like I am ( :
A good strategy to avoid being caught in an ugly situation like that, you could offer it to only one person at a time and close that offer before moving on to the next; or you could word the offer so that it was clear that the first person to accept, or the first person to place a deposit will get the pump. Again, a deposit has nothing to do with whether an item is still for sale or not, but you are absolutley right, my situation probably would have gone better if I had insisted on one... live and learn.

Cheers,

- Chad

[psuedo]

sounds like we need a lawyer to chime in here...however after he takes his fees on any of these matters you will end up owing all the money to the lawyer and not the seller

[Fish]

LOL. What I've been talking about is just the bare basics of business law.
But I'm not a lawyer either... and besides, my professional expertise is criminal law ( :

Thanks for the chance to vent. I'm probably going to just keep the damn pump. It won't be long until I get the itch to set up another tank anyways.

Cheers,

- Chad

ps - all offers are now closed ( :

[StirCrazy]

LOL. What I've been talking about is just the bare basics of business law.
But I'm not a lawyer either... and besides, my professional expertise is criminal law ( :



lets see anyone enforce a verbal contract.. that is the problem.. it cost more to pursue it than the contract is worth in most cases. and depending on what the value is a verbal contract is nothing more than an intent and doesn't hold any water.

I have had a few problems, people offering to trade me stolen goods, intentional low balls after price has been agreed on, calling back two months later asking if I still have it and stating they will be out at 3pm and never showing up after I make a point of staying home.. just as well probably wouldn't have brought all the money again anyways. :neutral:

anyways it is to bad we don't have some sort of system to warn other about the worst offenders but it opens a whole new door for liable.

Steve

[Veng68]

BC Aquaria Forum has a "Member Feedback Section" http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=12&sid=ddbcfac968009f5d01b2dc88c3c0f4a8

It seems to work quite well.

Cheers,
Vic [veng68]

[EmilyB]

Hmm, I had a thread about that, but can't find it now. This round turned out okay for me, cause Nate actually showed up.....:razz: :lol:

[trilinearmipmap]

I think we need the buyer/seller feedback system like BCAquaria has.

I had a deal with someone to buy something from me, I brought it down to Vancouver to sell it, the buyer jammed out.

But mostly I have had good dealings with people on this board.

If you buy and sell from people who are well-known on the board there should be less problems.

[Samw]

There's a Trader Ratings plugin for Vbulletin

http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=65730


ITrader

http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=102965