Return Bulkhead so deep?

[Squiddy]

I just got a new SeaStar tank from Mike at Hidden Reef and have now got it all set up but was wondering why the bulkhead in the overflow box is so low down. If I turn the pump off, 4+ inches of water (90 gallon tank) will drain into the sump, overflowing it.

http://members.shaw.ca/jeremywarren/1.jpg
Showing return bulkhead drilled into overflow box

I know I will need to get some locline or something to aim the returned water but I guess I am going to have to bring whatever line I have coming out of there, up to the surface so that only a small amount siphons back into the sump. Any suggestions?

Also, the drain standpipe seems to be sitting quite high in the overflow box. I screwed it down as far as I could into the bulkhead in the bottom and the rest of it was already pre-glued but right now if I open the return line up fully, the level in the tank goes too high and looks like it might overflow. The pump I am using for now will do about 500gph at 5ft.

http://members.shaw.ca/jeremywarren/2.jpg
Showing temporary sump and flow restricted with ball valve

http://members.shaw.ca/jeremywarren/3.jpg
Showing where return and drain lines come through bottom of tank inside overflow box

http://members.shaw.ca/jeremywarren/4.jpg
Showing view from inside overflow box of return line (reflection) and top of standpipe (right)

I assumed that these kinds of things should have been already set from the factory. I will obviously have to lower the height of the stand pipe which will unfortunately require cutting and rejoining the pipe because everything is already glued together.

Am I doing something wrong here or is this pretty normal? My previous 90gal wasn't drilled so I haven't had to deal with this kind of thing before. Please help. Thanks

[Jason McK]

Usually Mike does everything custom. You didn't ask him to do that?

J

[GrimReefer]

Looks like you could easily put a check valve on the return to solve your sump overflow issue.

[Farrmanchu]

The water level in the overflow box looks too high, a lower standpipe might help. It's hard to troubleshoot these type of problems from pics. Maybe wider slots in the overflow. Anyways, you want to bring the tank water level down somehow, and have as much room as possible in the sump. Check valves can fail, then you still have the worry of an overflow. Lockline going from the bulkhead to within an inch of the surface would do the trick too.

[Squiddy]

I had no idea Mike customizes the tanks.. I assumed it came from the factory like this. I will definitely need to take the standpipe out and cut it down I guess. I supposed I wouldn't have to glue the coupler on when I join it back together would I? If I left it unglued, then I have the ability to adjust the length at any time.

I had thought about putting a check valve inline with the return but have heard that they do fail and so I'd rather fix it at the output. Would locline seal enough to prevent water from seeping back down the return line? Or would I have to put solid PVC up to the surface and then run locline from there?

I have been only turning on the return pump when I get home from work in the evenings because I'm scared something is going to go wrong. I'm glad I put that ball valve in there.

[Jason McK]

I would give Mike a call. The overflow teeth do not look like what usually comes out of Mike store. Maybe he could redo the overflow box and bring the return up over the overflow


J

[hawk]

Put a tee on your return with a ball valve. The straight part of the tee goes to the tank the other part of the tee goes back to the sump. Put the valve on the pipe going to the sump. This way you can control the volume of water going to the display tank without restricting your pump.

[BMW Rider]

You could raise the level of the return by adding a couple of elbows after the bulkhead. I concur with Hawks suggestion for reducing the flow to the tank. Lowering the standpipe will likely not solve anything as the flow is simply exceding its capacity. You would have to have a larger standpipe if you want to open up the flow more.

[Squiddy]

Thanks again for the replies. I don't think I am going to go and redo the overflow box now... I went through enough hell getting the tank set up at our current house (floor was very uneven, rubbermaid containing livestock while tank was being leveled started leaking all over the carpet etc).

I am going go try lowering the standpipe first to see what that does. When I had the pump opened right up, I could look down the top of the standpipe and it sure looked like there was plenty of room for that much water going down there. I think the problem is that more room is needed above the opening to the standpipe in order for that much water to drain due to surface tension probably?

I will also take your suggestions and put a couple of 45's or 90's on the output of that bulkhead to bring the line up to the surface before attaching any locline.

We'll see how that goes I guess. Thanks again guys.

[hawk]

I am going go try lowering the standpipe first to see what that does. When I had the pump opened right up, I could look down the top of the standpipe and it sure looked like there was plenty of room for that much water going down there. I think the problem is that more room is needed above the opening to the standpipe in order for that much water to drain due to surface tension probably?


But is the flow through the overflow teeth large enough to keep up with the pump? Does the level drop when the the stand pipe is removed and the pump is fully opened up?

[Squiddy]

I will have to give that a try. I know that the level in the overflow box and the level in the tank always stay the same. The pump I have should be putting out about 500gph at 5ft which doesn't seem like that much to me. What is the ratio for tank size to amount of water turned over in an hour again? I guess I need to do some more research... just haven't had time.

[hawk]

500gph doesn't seem like much to me either. How high is the stand pipe?, can you post a pic of the top of the stand pipe?

[SuperFudge]

That one is not custom, it is what Sea star supplies.

It is also standard sea star overflows, and drain pipes.

The 2" extention on the pipe is not glued so you can cut it to your needs.

Cut at about 3/4" below the bottom of the overflow fingers, for a pump that runs about 500 gph, the bigger the pump the more you cut it down.

If you are unsure, leave as a dry fit, there is no need to glue that joint.

I like to leave them high enouph to leave a definate drop in water,making sure you are surface skimming well, but not enouph to make noise.

On sea star or any euro braced tanks, it is also nice to run the water line in the tank high enouph to just touch the bottom of the bracing.
If not, it will develop salt creep and block light.

The hole through the overflow is meant to have a threaded street 90 fit into int with another 90 off of that...Or some locline.
This is done because the overflows are glass inside and cannot be drilled that close to the edge.
This will prevent backsiphon down to that hieght.


Marc.

[Jason McK]

there you go, I thought there would be a logical explanation.

J

[smellsfishy]

some solutions i came up with for my SeaStar.
it's a terrible picture but i made this 45degree T goes into the threaded 90 which threads into the bulkhead. It's hard to tell but it slopes upward to about 2" below the water surface . it sucks back less water this way. as i have a hammerhead for a return i had to keep it this low or the air syphons from the surface but with your flow amount you could have it higher, you may want to consider lockline, instead, note the 45degree split directs the current into the corners as well.
you will also want to put some kind of silencing on the standpipes, i designed a stockmen style cap for these standpipes, if your interested i can send you a pic.
as for the overflows i found the teeth slots to be no where near capable to handle the flow i wanted but i had already stocked the tank so i had to break them off and replace with leaf gaurd mesh (guttergaurd) from Rona, it doesn't look great pro but it works really well, if you leave some teeth in to support the mesh.
hope this helps

[Squiddy]

Thanks for the reply Marc. You got me all excited and then when I went and took the standpipe off, I found that it has all been glued together so I think I will stick with my original plan. Lots of good points though regarding water level and plumbing the return line.

http://members.shaw.ca/jeremywarren/5.jpg
Whole standpipe

http://members.shaw.ca/jeremywarren/6.jpg
Profile shot of top of standpipe

http://members.shaw.ca/jeremywarren/7.jpg
End on shot of top of standpipe

http://members.shaw.ca/jeremywarren/8.jpg
Bottom of standpipe

I'd love to see a picture of the standpipe cap you made for your SeaStar, smellsfishy. I knew I was going to have to do something with it. I will have to see how the water flows through the teeth. I don't really want to have to start breaking them off... yet. However, I think I will follow something similar to what you have done with your return line. I couldn't make it out at all in the picture but I get the idea, thanks.

[smellsfishy]

you should have got a 2" diameter thin wall pipe to go into the top, this is what you adjust in length/height (don't glue it), remember you can't cut it back on, haha. take off a little at a time until you got it right.
btw it looks like you got way to much teflon tape on those threads, you only need 5-8 turns max imo, maybe it's just the pic??

[Squiddy]

you should have got a 2" diameter thin wall pipe to go into the top, this is what you adjust in length/height (don't glue it)

What you see is what I've got. Northing more. Anything more on top of the top piece would have made it even higher anyways. I dunno!? Maybe something got glued that shouldn't have been? That standpipe came exactly as it's shown in the picture above...

btw it looks like you got way to much teflon tape on those threads, you only need 5-8 turns max imo, maybe it's just the pic??
I'm going to rewrap that piece anyways because the tape got chewed when I screwed it in the first time. I don't think I put too much on the first time but I will make sure I don't this time.

Hey can you post the pictures of your standpipe and how you modified it to be quieter? Did you just use two 90 degree elbows? I went out and got the pieces I need to complete the return line. I will still need some Locline but I'll get that later. I don't think anyone over here stocks Locline... I think Scott at IPZ has a few pieces... but not everything I need. Guess I'll go back to Mike for that stuff.

[Squiddy]

Ok so I cut a bunch off the drain line and put a coupler in. I just guessed at the length and I think it's perfect the way it is now. The water is just barely touching the bottom of the Euro braces. Is the water supposed to pour over the edges of the overflow box (through the teeth) or are the teeth just supposed to stop fish etc?

I'm going to go figure something out for the return line now. Will post more pictures when I'm done.

http://members.shaw.ca/jeremywarren/drain_top.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/jeremywarren/surface_tension.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/jeremywarren/standpipe_side.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/jeremywarren/water_height.jpg

[smellsfishy]

oops guess i should have sent some pics sooner it would have saved you some hassle. I'll pm ya to many pics