Suggestions for a FW setup?

[Delphinus]

I'm tired of looking at my FW tank, which I think I've seen cleaner sewage treatment plants ... so I'm thinking I'd like to tear it down and start a new setup, one where I don't concern with trying to grow plants because that's where it seems some magic threshold got crossed, before I tried growing plants it was "so-so" but now that I have plants in there it's more in the category of "utter abomination".

So I'd like to keep my current fish, and design a setup around them (minus real plants, fake plants may be OK though), and maybe have some schooling fish of some sort (tetras?) or at least, fish that occupy the middle part of the water column because all I have right now are ever-invisible bottom dwellers.

Fish are:
- 2 clown loaches (which at the 6 or 7 year old mark, are in the size category of "miniature trout" - seriously, about 5" in size)
- 1 bristlenose plec (I had a pair, but I recently lost my female)
- 1 butterfly loach (sometimes called "UFO plec")

For free swimming fish I was thinking some tetras of some kind, or some other kind of reasonably peaceful open water swimmers.

I was thinking maybe a 50g, 48" wide. Currently the tank is a 30" 30g. I can't go too large as the spot it sits on is above the garage in a bonus room so shoring up the floor is not an option. But I figure something like a 50 would work because it gives the fish some swimming room without stepping up the volume too drastically. (I think I once heard you can go up to 75g usually without needing to reinforce the flooring underneath..)

I'm not 100% sure what my question is.. I guess. ... do you think this could work? If not, what are some good ideas for a setup for some larger clown loaches that I could consider?

I was also maybe thinking of going with a small sump, since then I could access filters a little better (maybe even {gasp!} make use of bioballs), hide things like the heater, not worry about water fluctuation because I could use a float valve, etc. etc.

Maybe even a sort of closed loop with the input and outputs on opposite sides to get some sideways unidirectional flow, to kinda/sorta mimic a river setup (although now I'm just dreaming, but I still think it's a neat idea).

Any thoughts?

[midgetwaiter]

The combo of the clown loaches and the butterfly loach is interesting. The butterfly loaches prefer cooler (higher oxygen content) water and the clowns usually much warmer. What temp do you keep your tank at?

A sump sure makes life easier with FW too, worth looking at if you don't mind spending a bit more money on the setup. A river tank is a neat idea but if you crank up the flow rate mid water swimmers will be tricky, most of the little schooling tetras are from pretty slow moving streams and pools. I'm actually having a pretty tough time thinking of something to suggest.

Your loaches are still babies, just wait until they get over a foot. Your ideas are all solid though, should work out fine.

[trilinearmipmap]

I have always wanted a dedicated clown loach tank, they are IMO about the nicest FW fish. I got rid of the clown loaches in my plant tank because they eat snails, and snails IMO are essential for a plant tank.

Anyway one of the nicer FW tanks I ever remember seeing was about 15 years ago in a restaurant, there were three things: a school of clown loaches, a school of silver dollars, and high current. The clown loaches love to play in the current and appreciate the high oxygen content.

I suggest some streams or seios to set up a good current, a large driftwood piece, and maybe some Java Fern on the driftwood. I would go for as big a tank as possible, full-grown clown loaches probably want the same size tank as a full-grown Tang would.

[doublette]

Have you thought about Rainbowfish? They swim at all levels of the tank, are active, not shy and most of all - beautiful fish! We have some Banded Rainbows (Melanotaenia trifasciata), Boesemani (Melanotaenia boesemani) and New Guinea Reds (Glossolepis incisus) in our 135G with a pleco, clown loaches and balas.
As for decorating...very interesting things can also be done with driftwood and maybe a fake plant or two.
Debbie

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

Yes, I love my Rainbowfish too. I have Red Irians, Bosemannis, Turquoise & Neon Dwarfs. I also have a small school of Long fin Rosy Barbs & Congo Tetras. These are all nice, colourful fish that should go well with what you already have.

Anthony

[Cap'n]

The large clown loaches are going to make it difficult to keep smaller schooling fish. I like the ideas of rainbowfish and especially the silver dollars. Add in a pair of severums and you have a similar setup to the one I am planning to change my tanganyikan tank to.

What about a pair of firemouth cichlids? Not the school you were thinking of but they would go great with the loaches and would be very visible.

[Delphinus]

Cool, thanks for the suggestions. yeah, maybe "schooling" isn't quite what I meant, I meant something that "doesn't sit on the bottom and hide all day long".

Midgetwaiter, I keep my temp around 23. I didn't realize that the two loaches were incompatible (at least in the water temps they prefer). You can tell that the butterfly loach likes fast flow. I dunno, I've had this guy at least 5 years or so now. I haven't a clue what he eats, never comes out for food, but I see him at night darting about. I kind of wonder if I did go to a cleaner setup whether he'd have a harder time, maybe he's subsisting on the cyanoslime I get growing on my plants all the time.

Yeah, I know my loaches are pretty wee all things considered. They are pretty comical fish, it's too bad they make keeping any kind of snail impossible. Every now and again I'll throw some excess snails out of my outdoor pond barrell into the tank for them to go nuts on. Kinda mean to the snails I guess but there are hundreds of them in that barrell anyhow, they hitchhiked in on some cattails, the cattails never lived through the winter but the snails sure did.

[midgetwaiter]

That's a comfortable temp for the butterfly but lower than most people keep clown loaches. A big part of that is that the clowns seem to resist ich better at those temps and being scale less and wild caught that's always a bonus. If you aren't having trouble though don't mess with it.

[StirCrazy]

First, you should find the clown loaches a new home as that tank is way to small for them.. at that age they should be 12 to 14" long, but all that aside why not fix the problem for the live plants instead of scrapping them? got to be some reason why they don't do well.

Steve

[Delphinus]

If someone could tell me what I was doing wrong for the plants, I'd be all over it. Seriously, I've given this a go for a few years now, it's just degrades way too fast. I've tried CO2, no CO2, more light, less light, more flow, less flow, more fertilizer, no fertilizer, etc. etc. etc. etc. When I ask people for advice on how they keep their FW setups top-notch, usually I get vague answers like "oh I don't really do much."

All things considered, I'd rather have the loaches than the plants anyhow.

12" to 14" long at 5-6 years? Ok they're not that big yet but they're big .. and growing still ... agreed they need a bigger tank, but that's sort of why I was wondering if say a 48" 50g would be a better choice than say a 36" 65g (Ok maybe I didn't come out and ask that specifically yet, but I am now, wouldn't a 50g but 48" tank be better than a 65g but 36" tank? Given that I don't want to go heavier than say 70g total water volume in the spot the tank occupies.)

[midgetwaiter]

First, you should find the clown loaches a new home as that tank is way to small for them.. at that age they should be 12 to 14" long, but all that aside why not fix the problem for the live plants instead of scrapping them? got to be some reason why they don't do well.


12 to 14 is pushing it a bit, I think his are a pretty resonable size. IME clowns don't get up to that foot size until about 8 or 9 years

As far as the plant issues go, what were you using as substrate? Plants just don't thrive in sand or gravel, a nice planted tank is setup with that in mind using a loam mixture or something like eco complete right from the get go.

[StirCrazy]

12 to 14 is pushing it a bit, I think his are a pretty resonable size. IME clowns don't get up to that foot size until about 8 or 9 years

As far as the plant issues go, what were you using as substrate? Plants just don't thrive in sand or gravel, a nice planted tank is setup with that in mind using a loam mixture or something like eco complete right from the get go.

If you go to the rivers where the clown loaches are from they are actual a food source and they were fishing them and talking about how big they have to be for eating and that coralated to age, anyways it ended up being about 4 years for them to reach the 1 foot mark and big enuf to be worth eating.

in tanks yes they grow a lot slower as we don't feed them enuf, they don't have enuf room ect.. but they are still a fresh water fish that is listed in the books as sutible for larger tanks only, even though store owners will sell them with 5 gal cubes.

Steve

[Delphinus]

So will a 48" 50g work or am I going to have to make my 75g reef into a clown loach tank for the next couple of years?

I should mention it's not the plants that don't grow, it's the cyanoslime and other crap (beard algae?? or something) that just overtakes it. I can prune the plants and clean the slime of the plants and other items, but the fuzzy stuff on the rocks and other items is impossible to remove. It's like the tank needs a complete tear-down and scrubbing from top to bottom once per month. That's just way too much work, when I compare to the incremental maintenance that the reef tanks require, there's no comparison. I actually find my one FW tank a much harder chore than my multiple reef tanks.

My thinking is that by abandoning the approach to having a highly planted tank that I can go to a tank that is not as brightly lit and may therefore be a bit easier to keep on top of.

So it sounds like I can expect the clowns to double in the next year or two? That would sort of explain why I suddenly find myself wondering if I'm actually noticing them bigger from one day to the previous. They were maybe 1.5" - 2" when I got them, and it took at least two years for them to double from that size, and then again maybe another two years to double from that size. To think that in another two years they will be double from here almost means we're talking about exponential growth.. I thought maybe it would be more of a tapered curve?

Man... I obviously need to bone up a bit on my FW reading. Despite that the tank is ten years going strong now, I have nowhere near the knowledge that you guys have for FW..

[midgetwaiter]

I should mention it's not the plants that don't grow, it's the cyanoslime and other crap (beard algae?? or something) that just overtakes it. I can prune the plants and clean the slime of the plants and other items, but the fuzzy stuff on the rocks and other items is impossible to remove. It's like the tank needs a complete tear-down and scrubbing from top to bottom once per month. That's just way too much work, when I compare to the incremental maintenance that the reef tanks require, there's no comparison. I actually find my one FW tank a much harder chore than my multiple reef tanks.

My thinking is that by abandoning the approach to having a highly planted tank that I can go to a tank that is not as brightly lit and may therefore be a bit easier to keep on top of.


You do know the answer to this, you just don't know that you know. :)

If somebody asked you about a reef tank that had a similar issue what would you suggest they look for? Yep, phosphate. Specifically the amount of free phosphate or to be really specific the ratio of available nitrogen to poshphate. Here's a couple case studies:

http://albertaaquatica.com/index.php?showtopic=6078




So it sounds like I can expect the clowns to double in the next year or two? That would sort of explain why I suddenly find myself wondering if I'm actually noticing them bigger from one day to the previous. They were maybe 1.5" - 2" when I got them, and it took at least two years for them to double from that size, and then again maybe another two years to double from that size. To think that in another two years they will be double from here almost means we're talking about exponential growth.. I thought maybe it would be more of a tapered curve?

Think of it this way, full grown clown loaches are 15 to 18 inches long and much more massive than you might think. They are rare to see and probably don't hit this size in aquariums until 15 years old, if ever. I know if you look around you'll see plenty of places that list the max size at 6" but they're wrong. So the 50 will do for a while but you'll be looking at that 75 or bigger eventually so maybe just get it over with now.

[Delphinus]

When I get some time I'll check out that link, thanks.

I have tried phosphate sponges, out of desperation. It's an only temporary stop gap measure though. It's also a rather expensive proposition. I'm not sure if it's the food or the source water where it's coming from (at one time I was using RO, but gave up on it because it's a lot of work to haul up buckets of RO from the basement). Right now it's so bad that I just want to throw out all the plants, all the substrate and rocks and driftwood and start over from first principles. Run the tank empty with just the two cannister filters (I run both a Rena and a Eheim on this setup) with bleach for a couple weeks before reintroducing the fish.

I recently swapped out my older lights (tank is lit by 2x65) with Jebo daylights and although I don't want to blame the lights, it just seems like it went from bad to worse at that point (although it could just be other factors as well).

I dunno, maybe next time you're in the south (I live in Evergreen) I could ask you to pop by and take a look and see if you can offer any suggestions, I'm seriously at the end of my knowledge as to what to do. I want to enjoy the fish, I'm tired of looking at the tank and thinking "Man what a sludge factory". My nephew has a FW tank with a bunch of tetras and whatnot, and it's ten times the nicer tank, and it's just one of those Eclipse package deals with a "buncha fish" and coloured gravel and a castle decoration sort of thing.

[albert_dao]

I'll give you a long schabang explanation of the whole deal when I get back from work Tony. Don't give up! FW is EZ.

[trilinearmipmap]

As far as the plants it can be troubleshot if you want to take the time I could help you fix it. I have a high-light CO2 system, and a low light non-CO2 system, I have been through bad troubles with both of them and now they are both running great. IMO you need a multifactorial approach to deal with it including substrate, macro and micro ferts, lighting balanced to CO2, and an algae-eating crew to include shrimp otos and snails. But if you want to keep clown loaches IMO they are not well compatible with a planted tank because they will eat snails and probably shrimp too.

[Delphinus]

Yeah... it seems that what it comes down to, the loaches or the plants. Not that I'm against the idea of a nice planted tank, if done well they are amazing setups, just thinking that it's best to separate the goals for now.

Ok given that I need to get the loaches into a bigger system, but can't give them a 90g (or bigger) tank *at this time*, but I could, say, fit into the spot the current tank is in, either a 3' 65g, or a 4' 50g, what's a better choice? The length or the overall volume?

Tri, got any pics of your setups?

[midgetwaiter]

I'd choose the 4' for swimming space, the extra volume would be nice but you canmake up for it with water changes.

[Canadbis]

I agree with Midgetwaiter
Go with the 48" for swimming room
I have 7 clown loaches that school together and the largest is about 5". If he leads the pack then they make sure to go from one end to the other, if a small one leads then they only go about halfway, and as yours are larger I would give them the length to swim.
If you plan on putting them in a larger tank later then maybe add a couple Bala sharks to go with them, mine get along great!!

Or just buy my 5' tank that is for sale!!:biggrin:

[albert_dao]

A couple things:

- Clown Loaches reach the 5" mark very rapidly (within the first two years), but from there, the growth rate tapers off to a crawl.

- Planted tanks can be EZ if you take the time to hunt down certain species. Java fern, Anubias and Cryptocoryns are all species that will do well REGARDLESS of your non-existant care routine - - Snails notwithstanding.

- Don't bother with the whole bleach thing. Give everything a quick clean with a stiff brush and warm water. Replace the media if you've got a real slime bucket on your hands and start from there.

- Length or volume? Six of one or half a dozen of the other? It's a matter of personal preference when you're talking about clown loaches that you don't plan to keep to full size. Figure out what works best for the space you have. That said, bigger is always better - and I know lots about big.

- Jebo brand lights have been known to spontaeneously light aflame. You have been warned.

- Dechlorinated tap water is fine if you're planning with the more robust plants.

That's all I can think of right now.

[Delphinus]

Those are the plants I grow already. It's not that the plants don't grow it's that they are outcompeted continually.

The rocks need to be bleached or discarded. The algae base cannot be srubbed off. I'm not exagerrating.

PS. I never said I don't plan to keep the loaches until full size -- I'm curious if one setup works better for them, over another setup, for the short term. I would prefer to re-evaluate their setup needs every few years or so, and grow with them incrementally.

[RobbAdams]

Tony,

I found back when I was growing plants that that Flourite gravel stuff, underneath about an inch of sand was a miracle. this stuff is a bit pricey if I recall, but really changed things for me. I maily grew that tall val stuff (Looks like fat blades of grass) in straight treated tapwater. I also was using an eheim filter, one of the pro series in a 75 gallon. kept mainly africans, not sure if this makes a difference.

Robb

[Finaddict]

Tony, have you changed the bulbs lately? old bulbs( over a year) caused a major green slime out break in my 90g planted a while back so I changed a few and all returned to normal...
Also I keep hornwort floating in the top to help absorb excess nutrients in the water and it out competes the algae.
I have lots if you wants some!!!