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View Full Version : Circulation for a 210 gal


ed99
07-26-2006, 03:52 AM
Folks,

After a successful move and a successful wedding (hopefully!) I am ready for the next project, which is setting up my in-wall 210 gal aquarium. Once again I'm hoping the Canreefers can give me some advice in the design of the system. Here are a couple of pictures of my set-up:

http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/medium/220tank-front-start.JPG

http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/medium/220tank-back-start.JPG

The first thing I am working on is the plumbing and sump design. Initially I'm planning on just fish, some soft corals and a BTA or two though like most others I'll probably get sucked down the spiral and want to keep some LPS and SPS eventually- if I'm successful with the other creatures over time, so I want to keep some flexibility in my design.

After checking out a few threads, here is what I have come up with:

- a single 2" downspout drilled in (well, I'm stuck with that now)
- a reasonably large sump(I've got a reasonable amount of space)
- a refugium
- an Aquamedic skimmer and a Remora Pro skimmer (left over from previous set-ups)
- a Sequence Dart external pump
- a single water return to the main tank (rigid PVC pipe)
- a Tunze Turbelle 6060 Stream pump with a single controller

The basis for this design is to minimize head losses and not worry about flow in parallel returns. I would then set the Tunze up in the opposite direction of the prevailing flow from the return to get some good mixing.

Any comments on this design? Insights on to the number of flow returns to the main tank (velocity too high?) and the pump choice in particular is much appreciated. Also, does anybody try to run other equipment such as an UV sterilizer or a Ca reactor off their main pump, and if so, how much head loss occurs? And finally, is Spaflex type pipe good for the long haul? It would give less pressure loss but I'm concerned about the durability of the flexible pipe and connections over time.

Thanks,

Ed

Ruth
07-26-2006, 05:08 AM
Very nice set up. I love in-wall tanks and it looks like you have lots of room to add additional equipment.
I am sure there are others far more knowledgable than me that will jump in here but my initial comment is that you do not have enough flow in there. In my 230g I have a closed loop run off of a Mag 24, my return from my sump/fuge which I cannot remember off the top of my head but not serious flow. In addition I have 2 Tunze 6100's on a controller. This is not what I would consider a high flow tank and I have mostly soft corals with a few LPS.
My other comment is that you may be underskimmer but that is just me and I am a believer in overskimming as I like to feed my fishies (too much probably)

mark
07-26-2006, 05:20 AM
Nice setup and to a happy married life.

My comments from my experience and lots of reading:
-the 2" drain seems big enough and since overflow in in a separate area than viewing, noise will be a lesser concern
-can't knock big sumps, raise it off the floor a bit can ease maintenance and less head
-ref above and flowing back to display ideal. Can T off main return but a separate smaller pump from sump to ref won't take any flow fr tank
-Dart my choice on my CL, thought flow rolls off with head a bit much for a return
-have you considered your single return branching to a manifold (championed by Calfo). Multi outlets for flow and can be adjusted as tank and stock grows.
-wouldn't be concerned with Spaflex if done properly. Works for years and years in hot tubs, higher temps, massive flow, chemicals...
-pointed PHs to each other for random flow on my old tank and sure would work on a Dart and Stream in a 210g but have you considered CL (them again I'm biased).

ed99
07-26-2006, 06:46 PM
Ruth, Mark,

Thanks for your comments. Just a couple of things I wanted to clarify:

Flow- I think I have about 3800-4000 gph which is almost 20 x tank volume. Is that on the low side? I have seen different rules of thumb.

Pump- any other suggestions over the Dart for a return pump? I had seen it recommended due to heat transfer and being relatively quiet.

Calfo- I'll have to do some reading on this. The main reason I have initially not included a manifold is the head loss through it, especially if you have throttling valves on it to control the flow, but again, I'll have to read up on Calfo.

-pointed PHs to each other for random flow on my old tank and sure would work on a Dart and Stream in a 210g but have you considered CL (them again I'm biased).

Not sure what you mean here Mark. Assuming CL is closed loop I thought that my Dart return pump was the closed loop part and that the Tunze stream pump was an open loop part. When you mention considering CL could you explain that a little more?

Thanks again.

Ed

SeaHorse_Fanatic
07-26-2006, 07:27 PM
Have you thought of one of those new Vortech pumps? That's what I'm considering for an 8' system I'll hopefully be setting up for someone in September. Lots of flow, low power usage, and great flexibility in one package (if all the initial marketing propaganda is to be believed).

TheReefGeek
07-26-2006, 07:40 PM
Ed, I am running a barracuda pump on a manifold with 7, 1/2" loc lines, the main manifold is 1". I have to throttle back my barracuda because even with head loss it is too much flow. My tank is 6 foot 180g.

So I think your dart on a manifold plus the stream will be awesome.

I wouldn't use the dart as a return pump, that is asking too much of a single drain line IMO.

I would go with a 500gph pump for a return, I run an eheim, I don't really use it to add flow to the tank, but just to transfer water from the sump to the display etc.

For sump size, are you going under the tank, or in the room?

I would go in the room, and buy a massive skimmer (I am a believer in high skimming, I use an ASM G6). You can use the skimmers you have but I would plan for an upgrade down the road, so plan the sump accordingly.

ed99
07-27-2006, 03:00 AM
Thanks all. I checkced out the Calfo manifold- looks like that might be the way to go. I see what you mean with the closed loop flow now instead of the powerheads. A Dart with a foot or so of head loss would give about 3300 gph of flow. With 500-1000 gph flow from the return would that be enough flow? I'm still not clear on what is considered optimal (cost vs the good of the tank).

It's easy enough to add a Tunze later but I may stick with just the Calfo- I like the idea of eliminating the powerheads.

I'll look into the Vortech pumps- hadn't heard of them before.

The sump will likely be half under the tank and half in the room, running perpendicular to the main tank. This will shorten pipe lengths and give me easy access to the skimmers (and will allow an upgrade later). I'm hoping to get away with what I have. Together they are rated for over 300 gal aquariums. But I hear ya, more is better and if the bioloads get too high I will get something bigger.

mark
07-27-2006, 03:01 AM
My understanding is that you were planning the Dart as the return from the sump with it's outlet in the tank pointing to the Tunze. If that's the case, the Dart is not on a closed loop, it's just a return pump (and with the Tunze lots of turbulent currents)

Closed Loop (CL) implies zero head. The inlet to the pump is directly from the tank and the returns are below the tank water level.

Here's a link to the manifold (with picture) http://www.wetwebmedia.com/pbh2oret.htm


If you do consider a CL, can do one without OM products but the Waterpix section have lots of pictures of CL:
http://www.oceansmotions.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=10&sid=f48ded663f51fdd40e5afba39b2335f1 (mentioned before I'm bias to CLs, I'm DAS75 with the 4-way and Dart)

Don't have a Tunze and they seem like great pumps but if you want to keep your tank clean of powerheads and since you have such a large tank, might consider the Dart on the CL with a smaller return pump. Really then the only flow required through the sump is enough for the skimmer. Some people have problems with high flow through the sump causing micro-bubbles though I'm okay at about 1000gph with a 75g sump.

Things I enjoyed about starting my new tank was researching through all the different options but then all the choices and opinions can also be a bit frustrating.

TheReefGeek
07-27-2006, 04:30 AM
I think he is now thinking of going with the Dart on a closed loop manifold like I do.

You are going to have much more than 1 foot of head pressure on the manifold though. First you need to suck water up out of the tank (I use a 1/5" pvc length for this, with slits cut all in it to diffuse the water flow so the pressure per square inch is reduced to a decent level.

You get some head pressure from sucking water up, then for every 10 feet of so of pipe you have 1 foot more, plus 1 foot more for each 90 degree turn.

Try the dart on a closed loop manifold, go 1" all around, with 5-6 t's that are 1" going down to 1/2" threaded so you can thread in 1/2" loc line with nozzles. If you want to test cheaply, start with 1/2" 45" elbows instead of loc line to see if the total flow is good enough, this is what I started with, then bought the loc line later.

ed99
07-29-2006, 05:13 AM
Yep, I think I wll do the closed loop with a manifold and a Dart as you suggest. I can see why there would be some head loss if it is 1" pipe. Is there a reason to use such small bore pipe? Also Rory- what do you mean by a 1/5" PVC length? And are all the fittings you suggest available at places like Home Depot or are they more specialized parts?

So what I am looking at now is a 500-1000 gph return pump to get the tank cycling and then adding the CL. If that's not enough flow I'll add the Tunze later.

Yep, there are a lot of options and I'm sure most of them will work but it is interesting to read about what others have done. I'm hoping to minimize the amount of money spent on re-doing something so it is good to be able to bounce the ideas off some of the more experienced folks out there.

Ed

TheReefGeek
07-29-2006, 11:45 PM
Sorry I meant 1/2" pipe.

I used 1" because that was recommended to me, and it works, but Im not worried about head pressure because I throttle back my pump anyways.

EmilyB
07-30-2006, 02:17 AM
Oh my Ed, that is simply gorgeous ! Nemo is very healthy and happy and waiting to go home. He is an incredible fish, and we will probably replace him.

Did I mention he's totally hosting a GSP rock.........:lol: :razz: You may have to take that too !!

albert_dao
07-30-2006, 04:00 AM
Another option is the WavySea unit. Those really cut out on your dead spots.

ed99
07-31-2006, 03:02 AM
Thanks Deb, and thanks for taking good care of Nemo. The rest of house has turned out great too and so I am finally getting the tank started. I hope to get the sump ordered in the next week or two and then get circulation started and hopefully Nemo can come home soon. And if 6 foot of tank isn't enough for 3 clownfish I'm not sure what I will do!

And thanks all for the suggestions. I'm working on details now and will follow up on your product recommendations. I'll be posting more pictures and more questions as I make progress.

Ed