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niloc16
07-22-2006, 11:35 AM
well i got an offer i could not refuse. nicky and mike at hidden reef had a setup that i could not give up. i bought a 135g drilled tank, stand and 6ft hamilton 175w fixture with 3 mh and 2 96w actinics. i'm going to use my 55g as my sump, i'm going with asm g3 skimmer and possibly 2 dart pumps with a closed loop system. this is the first time i've had a sump and a setup this big so i'm looking for advice or tips. currently i just run pc lighting but with the new lighting i have the option of going with 10k or 14k mh and i dont know which to chose. i'm taking this setup slow and i dont want any regrets for purchases or assembly so i'm planning like crazy. i only bought it 2 days ago and just yesterday i was back in there drilling nicky with more questions. is it necessary to run 2 darts (1 for the sump and 1 for the closed loop)? any advice or ideas that you can offer would be awesome. another idea i had was plumbing in my 10g and using the 96w lighting that i have on it now and turn it into a refugium under the stand, but the problem is that it would gravity feed the tank so the display still get the benefit of the pods in the refugium or will the return pump just destroy them? i'm assuming that having the refugium with macro algae will be beneficial enough

rickjames
07-22-2006, 03:26 PM
From what I have read pods will go through a return pump just fine. I have a refuge in my sump and I could honestly quit feeding by banggai with the amount of critters in the water column of the main tank! I'm sure many of them are coming up from the sump.

As for lighting, with 175W bulbs I would stick with 10K as they are a nice colour and usually provide more PAR output, plus with a lower power like a 175W you probably want as much output as you can get, all depending on what you keep. If you have the chance go look at some 175 bulbs on another setup or in the store before buying a particular model.

If it were my tank, i would ditch the close loop and go with the tunze streams. They move a ton of water, are extremely reliable, and use very little power. Plus less pipes and wholes in your tank, less to go wrong. The main complaint against them is their size, but when positioned right, you will hardly notice them, specially with all the corals to stare at :wink:

Sounds like you are doing some good planning though, should be a nice setup!

niloc16
07-23-2006, 11:51 AM
now i've never had mh before, is the (3) 175w mh good for sps corals or is it not powerful enough?

Kabong
07-23-2006, 06:27 PM
SPS will be OK as long as you place them higher up.
You may not get there best colors and growth though.
IMO you would have been better served by 250W's
But if you just want SPS on the top of your tank and then LPS down at the bottom you should be alright.

reeferaddict
07-24-2006, 03:14 AM
I agree with Brennan - go get Tunze. Especially if you want to keep SPS. I have 2 closed loops on my 135 and they offer nothing compared to the Tunze. I have 2 - 6100's and two Seio 1100's in the rocks, I STILL think I could use more flow so I think I will upgrade the Seio's to another pair of 6100's. I think the biggest shock to me when I went up to a 6' tank was how much more difficult it is to get good flow... As for the lights, I think if your rock work allows you to put hard corals withing 12 inches of the water surface you will be OK, but anything stoney & deeper may not get enough light, it all depends on the corals, where they came from and what kind of lighting they are used to.

niloc16
07-24-2006, 10:03 AM
thanks alot for the input guys. the reason i'm leaning towards closed loop instead of tunzes is for less components in the tank. i currently use powerheads in my tank now and i hate them with a passion especially when the suction cups let loose. i mean if i run two darts one for the closed loop and the other for the sump i'm close to 40 - 50 times turn over rate. reeferaddict do you have any pics of the tunzes in your tank.

another question is the kelvin bulb to use. i've heard 50/50 from people to use 10k and the other half say 14k. the unit has 3 mh and 2 96w actinics, i got a suggestion to run 2 10k at the ends and a 14k in the middle. any ideas or pics of what the difference would be?

Quagmire
07-24-2006, 12:50 PM
If you go with a closed loop,you need around 300-400 gph flow out each outlet.So say you want 2 in the front 2 in the back and 1 on each side.(Thinking manifold here)You will need a pump that will put out around 2000-2500 gph after headloss.Myself,I like the idea but it takes a good sized pump to run it.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/sept2003/short.htm

Here's a link on how to build a manifold

Jaws
07-24-2006, 03:13 PM
You may want to reconsider such a large pump for your return too. I had a Mag 36 on my tank at one point and I wasn't happy with it. The slower the water is as it travels through the sump, the better chance your filtration equipment has at polishing the water, such as your skimmer, etc. If you can go with another closed loop or add a Tunze or two like the other guys recommended you might be a little better off.

niloc16
07-24-2006, 07:30 PM
quagmire thanks for the link that is awesome, i havent read it over yet but i definitely will. what is the amount of pressure loss i will lose with the one dart on the closed loop. what about a barracuda it is 4500gph, but is it quiet?

thanks for the input jaws, see i've never run a sump before so i really appreciate the advice, after i read your input i had an idea, is it possible to still use the dart for the sump but to split it, as to use half the pressure to run the sump and the other half to supply returns?

niloc16
07-24-2006, 10:49 PM
i was at the LFS this morning and mark introduced me to the ecotech vortech pump. i'm lovin it. i'm thinking of cancelling the closed loop system and running 2 of these pumps possibly 3, they rock. they are magnetic with the motor on the outside of the tank they have controllable flow and when they come out with the controller it will wirelessly control 10 of these pumps. anyone have experience with these pumps?

Quagmire
07-25-2006, 12:30 AM
Vortech are new,but we have been waiting impatiently for them.Dont know if anyone has one yet,but from what a few of us have read they look fantastic.
As for head pressure loss,there are alot of variables to consider.The head loss for your pump itself(this should be on the box,marked for differant hights)The length and diamiter of your pipe,and the amount of elbows and outlet fittings.There should be a headloss calc in our library I think.I'll take a look around to see if I can find it.

Ohh and also,I agree that you dont need alot of flow from your takn to the sump if you go that way.But you do want enough flow to keep the crap from settling.Unless you go BB sump and clean it out when it gathers up.I have 800 GPH through my overflow.( even thats more than is needed) And a second pump in the sump to keep everything suspended,so the skimmer can take it out.
Couldn't find the calc in our library,Im sure its thre somewhere.Here another link.
Just figure out what pump and the legnth/diameter of the pipe you are useing,and add in the corners.

http://reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php

niloc16
07-27-2006, 03:38 AM
i'm debating on going with the (3) 250w unit instead of the (3) 175 w unit. is there a real benefit in upgrading?

reeferaddict
07-27-2006, 08:03 AM
If you look at my recent posts you'll see pics of my tanks & the tunzes...

As for advantages to 250W lights, you will be more or less unlimited as to what kind of corals you want to keep, whereas 175W will mean you will only be able to keep less light demanding corals. Personally if it's feasible I would go with the 250's.

TheReefGeek
07-27-2006, 03:54 PM
If you really want a nice setup that you can use to upgrade down the road too, then I would definately go with 250w halides.

Don't use a Dart on a closed loop, too much flow. Use a 400-500gph pump, maybe a mag7.

I run a baracuda on a closed loop manifold with 7 x 1/2" loc lines, I am happy with it, but it depends on your setup, mine is hidden in a fish room so no problem about PVC all over the place. I like being able to tweak my water flow whenever I want. The vortech pumps look awesome, aren't they really expensive though?

Also I would consider upping the skimmer to a g4x, or bigger. Whatever will fit under your stand. You can't really overskim, and you can upgrade to a bigger tank, or add tanks to the common sump down the road then.

niloc16
07-27-2006, 06:36 PM
thanks for the info guys. yeah the vortech pumps are really expensive. its funny that you mention about the g4 reefgeek because just yesterday at the LFS i was mentioning going bigger to a g4 for the potential of upgrading and they said they would cut me a deal. the owner told me that he had the stand made a little taller for me to allow for more room for the skimmer.

TheReefGeek
07-27-2006, 06:42 PM
The G4 is 24" tall, the G4X is 30" tall, and should only be $20 more.

I used to import ASM skimmers, compare the LFS pricing to:

www.asmskimmer.com

The G4X is only $10 US more expensive on that site than the G4.

See if asmskimmer will ship via USPS then your brokerage is cheap, and all you have to pay is $5.00 brokerage, plus the shipping and of course GST but you pay that regardless.

niloc16
07-27-2006, 10:10 PM
cool thanks reefgeek. well guys i bought the 250w unit this morning. i thought it was worth the extra $. its better to spend a little more now then do it later and have to spend alot more. hidden reef is an awesome store. they do all they can to make their customers happy. once their website is up and running then you'll know what i mean. i was in yesterday planning out the plumbing a bit. well i'm not really planning i'm leaving it up to mark at hidden reef to decide. if you have seen pics of his system you'll know why i'm leaving it to him. i think the closed loop system will work better for what i need it for and then later if need be i'll pick up a vortech or 2. my stand should arrive at the store of friday and then i'm just waiting to get a hold of a used 55gal so that i can drill it for sump and start the plumbing. i was going to use my current tank but if i can i'd like to keep it running until the new tank is setup and then just trade in the 55g.

Ruth
07-28-2006, 12:48 AM
If you are thinking of going with an ASM skimmer upgrade go to the G4X. I have both and IMO the G4 is a POS - seriously underpowered unless they have changed the pump from the Sedra 5000.
On my 190 I have a closed loop run with a Sequence Hammerhead that then goes through an Ocean Motions 4 way with each of the 4 outlets split giving me 8 returns to the tank. The OM devise is really cool and makes for good rolling flow along the tank. I also have 2 Tunze 6200 in this tank so it is high flow but I don't find the closed loop provides too much flow at all. Definately more from the Tunzes.

TheReefGeek
07-28-2006, 12:53 AM
G4 comes with a 9000 from I can see, the G4X is just a bit taller, allowing more dwell time.

I would use that as a recirculating pump to get the most out of it, and use a smaller feed pump, or your drain line would be best.

niloc16
07-28-2006, 01:21 AM
yeah the G4 comes with the sedra 9000 pump. is there better skimmers for the same price?

TheReefGeek
07-28-2006, 01:39 AM
Not in my opinion.

Better built skimmers would be euro-reef and deltec, and bubblekings are supposed to be awesome, but you pay out nose for em.

niloc16
07-28-2006, 03:03 AM
i trust nicky and mike at hidden reef but i was just curious what else there was. i've never had a big tank before so more info is better in my opinion.

niloc16
08-21-2006, 02:29 AM
here is the ASM G4 skimmer i picked up. everything is bought now its just a matter of assembly and plumbing. i also splurged and bought a RO/DI unit, i figured its worth the money and hastle. i've decided to plumb it into the laundry room sink in the basement and run the supply line up through the floor and into the sump with a kent float valve. i also bought a 2 stage calcium reactor with pump, its just being built right now, it was more of a want than a need purchase but i figured it would be less maintenance and tweaking once the reactor is setup properly. it also comes with a 10lb co2 tank with regulator and all. i'll post pics when i get them. i cant figure out how to post the pics, it says that i have exceeded my quota but i have only posted 3 other pictures on my other post right now. so when i figure it out i'll post them for you guys

albert_dao
08-21-2006, 04:52 AM
Errrr, Vortecs put out nearly as much flow as Darts do...

Flow is king.

niloc16
08-21-2006, 05:52 AM
i've changed my mind on the vortechs, i'm going to stick with the closed loop with a dart and 2 returns split to make 4. if i need more flow then i will add as needed. but i'm going to try this and see how it goes

albert_dao
08-21-2006, 06:21 AM
You'll use less electricity and have the option of variable flow if you go with the powerhead-based methods (tunze streams, wavebox, eco vortec, etc) to push water.

niloc16
08-27-2006, 02:09 AM
so my tank should be done, cross my fingers, by next weekend. so i started to clean my skimmer today in vinegar solution. i also bought a 5 stage reactor from hidden reef. its awesome. i'll get some pics of it and post soon. i was amazed how quiet this skimmer is compared to my remora. the only noise is the water trickling off the standpipe and sponge. what i'm assuming the waterline will be higher in the sump and the water trickling should get quieter.

Tom R
08-27-2006, 03:32 AM
This sounds like quite the project. I have an ASM G5 with 2 Sedra 9000 pumps. I found that the noise from the water falling from the return was quite loud. I followed the upgrade directions posted at www.ASMskimmer.com and completed the gate valve upgrade and it totally elliminated the noise. You will love your ASM, good luck.

Tom R

niloc16
08-27-2006, 04:06 AM
thanks tom. i'm so eager to get going on the tank. with this new reactor its a matter of what to put in all the chambers. i mean you add your calcium reactor media, phosphate media, still researching as to what to do with the rest. this reactor is insane. wait til i get some pictures, its awesome. it will do it all. my big concern with this tank is what safety nets i can use for my topoff system. i'm using a kent float valve in the sump to shut off the ro/di unit but i mean what if the valve sticks. any suggestions as to back systems i can employ to shut the water off?

Tom R
08-27-2006, 03:40 PM
I have a fairly simple water top off system using Kent Float valves. I have been using it for almost 4 years now and i have (never say never) had a problem with it. You are more than welcome to come over with your camera and take a good look at how it works. If you are interested just PM me and we can set up a time.

Tom R

niloc16
08-27-2006, 07:20 PM
thanks for the offer tom. do you periodically clean it and if so how often?

Tom R
08-27-2006, 10:07 PM
The fresh water tank seems to stay clean. The Salt water tank seems to get a build up of diatom on its side that I wipe clean about once every 3 months or so.

Tom R

niloc16
08-31-2006, 12:24 PM
well i have an update, i should change the title of my post because the tank that i was going to do is no longer, i upgraded to a 280 gallon tank 84"L 24"W 30"H. the boys had the 125 on the stand ready to plumb and it looked too small, i had already thought i would upgrade so i just decided to do it. i also got a larger sump 70 gal and i'll stick with a dart for my return, but upgraded to a barracuda for my closed loop. i'll be going with a different skimmer as well. traded in the ASM G4 and go with a euro reef skimmer possibly the RS250. i'll get some pics in the next couple days and post them.