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[Slick Fork]

I posted this in my Nano tank thread, but wanted to repost it here as well in case someone can help save my Coral's

What a sh@tty week.

Got my light fixture hung and that was all good and well. Decided to take my water down to calgary on monday to confirm that I was cycled, readings of zero across the board, so I grabbed a toadstool coral and a star polyp.

Took those home and all was well, the coral's seemed to adjust beautifully to life in the new tank.

Yesterday I had to go back to Calgary and stopped in at the store again, picked up a pair of tank bred clownfish (I figured with 15 gallons of capacity I would be ok) and a new powerhead. Acclimitize the fish just like I did the coral's (put them in a bucket and drip my tank water in gradually, it took about half an hour before I put them in the tank) Installed the powerhead, added the fish, all was well and happy. I checked on them before I went to bed and everyone seemed fine.

Came home from work today, clownfish are both dead, coral's look like they're on the way out. Other residents of the tank seem fine (2 hermit crabs 2 snails and a conch). I have no idea what could've caused this, as I didn't change anything at all between monday and today other then adding the new fish and powerhead. My parameter's are all fine, Salinity is good, Temperature is good Like I said as well, my inverts are all fine, but the fish are dead (I stuck them in the freezer in case I can return them), and my Coral's are on their way out.

I am really one unhappy camper right now, my coral's might still have a shot, does anyone have any idea what I should be looking for in order to give them a chance at recovery? Any help is appreciated
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[reeferaddict]

Still need a little more info like how long have you been cycling and tank size etc... as far as the fish go, calling the LFS & venting won't do any good for anyone... this stuff happens... some stores require you to bring in the bodies and a water sample & they will replace the fish for up to a week... others will give you 50% and yet others will tell you your warranty expired the minute you stepped out of the store... you have to ask first... That's one of the many reasons to quarantine... a sick or stressed fish can cause a whole system crash... be patient with the corals... 2 dead fish will degrade your water quality very quickly, so your corals are probably responding to that by shrinking up... improve the water quality and they should recover. I suspect that you have ammonia... (guarantee more like)... so a 30% or even 50% water change would go a long way to bringing those levels back in line... then your nitrites will spike... (another water change)... and finally your nitrates...(Yep! Another water change)... this will take between a few days and a couple of weeks depending on how much rock & sand you have & how long it has been cycling & what the bioload potential is... good luck!

[midgetwaiter]

The clowns Gold's has right now are in really good shape, I bought one on Sunday actually. I have no idea what kind of guarantee they have but I think you might want to look closer to home for your problem.

When you say all your parameters are fine what exactly did you test and what kind if kits did you use?

[Slick Fork]

OK, Water change underway so I can take a minute here. I've calmed down considerably since my first post and the toadstool looks like it's coming around, I had a bad day at work and then came home to this mess. I shouldn't be so hard on the store right off the bat. It's always easier to blame someone else.

So lets see where the problem might be, I'll walk through the whole thing again to see if I screwed up somewhere.

My system:

10 Gallon Display with a 5 gallon sump
~90watts of lighting.
~24lbs Live rock
~10lbs Sand (not necessarily live yet)
~750GPH in powerheads, etc.
Up and running for about 4 weeks. Just got an RO unit on monday at Gold's, (great deal under a hundred bucks but I gotta grab a water tank and faucet for it), so I've been using tap water (dechlorinated with prime) for 15%-20% water changes every week.

On Sunday, I checked my Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, PH. (I check these weekly, I've been using the aquarium pharmaceuticals master test kit with liquid reagents) My levels were: Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, nitrate 0, ph 8.4. Assuming that this meant I was cycled (have had all that liverock in there since day 1) I decided to play cautiously and took a sample in to have it tested at the store, the staff confirmed my results so I felt confident in starting to stock this tank.


On Monday I got the 2 Coral's home and acclimitised them to my tank using the drip line in the bucket method. I've had a ton of success using this method in my freshwater tank. Monday night, everyone was happy. Tuesday everyone was happy as well, the coral's were both looking good.

On Wednesday I was back in the store and picked up the 2 clowns and a new powerhead. I left the store with the fish in a bag in a cooler in the trunk of my car and got home about an hour and a half later or 2 hours later.

Once I got home, I put the 2 clowns in the small pail I used to acclimatize the Coral's. I emptied the bag water into the pail and ran a drip line from my tank into the pail. As the clowns were acclimatizing, I pulled the old powerhead out and farted around for about an hour getting the new one put in and adjusted so it moved everything around the way I wanted it. (As I did this I would empty water out of the pail periodically) After about an hour, hour and a half of acclimitizing this way I put both fish into the tank.

They cruised around for a second and then hid under an arch. I kept the lights low and threw in a small pinch of food to help them settle in. Just before I went to bed my wife said they were lying on the bottom, I went and had a look and sure enough they were both lying on the bottom, sort of cuddled together (not curled or anything like that) in a little nook. Every now and then they would wiggle or move and it looked like they were just getting comfortable. I know some freshwater fish will lie on the bottom so I didn't think a whole lot of it and decided I'd check tonight to see if that was normal behavior or not. Coral's looked fine as well.

This morning, checked on them before work, 1 was swimming around and didn't look too stressed out or anything. I couldn't see the other one, I assumed he was hiding behind a rock and I was late for work so I didn't comb the tank for him, just remember thinking at least he's not floating at the top. Don't remember what the Coral's looked like this morning.

Came home from work and the fish were both dead, the rest of the story you guys know.

Any help, advice is much appreciated. Thanks and keep it coming!

[Dale]

Hi slick fork.

Just some random thoughts:

Instead of using tap water try using R/O water for a water cooler till your unit is hooked up. I refill a 5G. container for $3 at my grocery store. It's a cheap alternative for a small tank.

I'm wondering about the temperature variations the fish (and corals) might experience from a LFS in Calgary to Olds to your tank. Depending on the weather they could go from LFS tank temp to car temp to your house temp to your tank temp. The water volume in a normal fish bag isn't very much. You could try using a small cooler (for a sixpack) for transport. It's not the highs and lows that's hard on marine species as much as it's the oscillations in between.

Welcome to nano land! Small tanks look cool and seem :wink: to cost less but managing the water chemistry and temp variations is very difficult. There is so little water volume to act as a buffer. I've gone from a 33G. to a 75G.display/55G.sump softy tank and still find balancing water chemistry challenging.

Can you take a pic of your tank, and in particular, how your powerheads etc.. are situated? I'm trying to visualize that much flow without blowing substrate everywhere. Just curious.

I don't know why your fish died. Sometimes these things happen. We test the parameters and troubleshoot but there's a lot going on that we don't understand as well. I recently bought 5 Chromis for my tank. 4 took to the move happy as clams but one immediately separated itself from the school, hid in a corner and died 8 hrs later ?????

BTW: I've been to Olds before (used to live in Calgary). Had my choice of Hort. college there or in Langley (I chose Langley). I guess the grass is always greener on the B.C. side :wink:

Good luck with your tank.
________
herbal health shop (http://herbalhealthshop.com)

[Moogled]

Hi Slice_Fork, I'm sorry to hear about your loss and I know how frustrating it can be to come home to dead livestock.

Like Dale says, sometimes things just go wrong in the aquarium and stuff die.

Luckily for me, the 2 ocellaris I've placed into my tank were giddy as soon as I placed them in. As for the Corals, placement is extremely crucial and I experiment with different places. The amount of light the coral recieves is a large factor.

What do your Toadstool and Green Star Polyp look like at the moment? Are the tentacles on the toadstool shrunken? They are fairly sensitive to water quality. As for the GSP frag, they are very robust although the frags have just begun to open for Gold's too.

[albert_dao]

Will comment tommorow night. Last I checked, all my frags and clownfish were fine...

[Slick Fork]

The more I think about it.... it's too late to think.

The 2 culprits I can think of at the moment would be my pail that I used for acclimatising them or the powerhead. I wonder if one or the other got contaminated somewhere along the line.

I'm thinking the pail because if the powerhead was contaminated with something wouldn't it wipe out the whole tank? After reading and consideration I feel I owe the staff at gold's an apology for my earlier vent. A combination of a bad day at work and having both my new fish dead in under 24 hours doesn't make for a pleasant stress free evening but I shouldn't have targeted the store right off the bat. My profound apologies

The toadstool is coming back around, all the polyps are out. The GSP is all sucked in but it's done that every night. I guess I'll see in the morning how it's doing.

[TheReefGeek]

Did you observe an actual cycle of your tank? (ammonia up, then gone, nitrate up, then gone, then buildup of nitrates?)

1/2 hour is not very long for acclimation, I go for 1 hour, and slowly increase the drip rate, and empty 1/3rd of the container a few times as well.

[Slick Fork]

Free minute here at work, the toadstool looked fully recovered this morning but the jury is still out on the GSP (it was still dark when I left for work so I'll see this afternoon)! Now to answer some of the questions...

As far as actually recording a cycle, no I didn't. I test salinity, and check ph every night, but didn't bother with my Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, etc. until 3 weeks had gone by. My thinking behind this was I change 15-20 percent of the water every week, the tank will cycle when it cycles and checking every day will just make me impatient. (I'm a big believer in just letting a tank cycle without panicking every time I see a spike)

There was very little die off from the rock I bought which I took as a good sign that it was decently cured. The clowns were actually acclimitising for about an hour and a half as I fiddled around with the new powerhead.

I did take them home in a 6 pack cooler, however it was an extremely hot day out, traffic was bad and it took me twice as long as usual to get home and I'm sure they got a little toasty despite the cooler.

Losing the fish was frustrating because I've never lost anything that quickly before (maybe I've just been lucky) and it was a shock to see the corals looking like they were on the edge of collapse as well. The odd time something dies in my FW tank it doesn't seem to have nearly the same impact.

I did a 50% water change late last night with RO water, the toadstool looks like it's coming around and hopefully the GSP will as well. I'm not going to worry about bothering anybody about the fish because I don't really think the store had anything to do with it and although I may be short tempered and tend to open my mouth wide enough to fit both feet in, I am an honest guy and big enough to admit when I was out of line.

Albert, if that was you that helped me out on either monday or wednesday I appreciate the time you took and I owe you an apology. I was going to PM you but i figured if I'm apologizing for something I said in public, I should make the apology public as well.

What I really want to do right now is figure out where I went wrong, and avoid making the same mistake again. Thanks again for all the replies and keep 'em coming

[TheReefGeek]

(I'm a big believer in just letting a tank cycle without panicking every time I see a spike)

Seeing the spikes is not a panick, its great, because you know you are building up the quanitties of bacteria you need to break down waste. Without "seeing" the cycle, you don't know your tank can break down wastes effectively.

Also, why did you do water changes during the cycle? You were removing waste that should have gone towards building up bacteria levels.

If you have very little die off, and did water changes, and didn't record any spikes, I wouldn't be confident that your system actually cycled properly.

[reeferaddict]

Seeing the spikes is not a panick, its great, because you know you are building up the quanitties of bacteria you need to break down waste. Without "seeing" the cycle, you don't know your tank can break down wastes effectively.

Also, why did you do water changes during the cycle? You were removing waste that should have gone towards building up bacteria levels.

If you have very little die off, and did water changes, and didn't record any spikes, I wouldn't be confident that your system actually cycled properly.

I couldn't agree more... usually water changes are done at the end of the cycling process - if there ever is an end - or rather when livestock starts to be added as anything added or subtracted will affect the bioload capacity even months down the road. While a system may take only a few weeks to go through the nitrate cycle, I feel it takes a year or longer to totally stabilize as observed through the various stages and fluctuations of nuisance algae that ALL tanks go through. Everything is always in such delicate balance - so adding livestock to any system, but especially a small system is going to create some bacteria imbalances that will take time to sort out. Sometimes when fish are brought to a new tank they get stressed and sick very easily no matter what the acclimation procedure is. Once that happens, a fish can succumb very quickly, especially in a "sterile" environment such as a young system.

From what you have posted I see someone being very conciensious but disappointed at failure... sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but welcome to the club. Keep doing everything as you have been, and once the ammonia and nitrite have been cycled out, give it another shot. I tried Percs in a couple of "newer" systems, and could never seem to keep them... this really pi$$ed me off when I'd see some swimming away happily in somebody's nano as I was always providing more space etc etc etc... now I have 4 that I put in a system that was over 8 months old, (buying 4 hoping TWO would survive after my abysmal previous attempts), and I still have all of them over a year later... go figure! I think the hardiest clown species are Maroons as I had my first long term success with one of those, but I think your tank size should limit you to Percs or Oscellaris... :mrgreen:

[TheReefGeek]

I would feed you tank as if you have had 2 clowns in there, and monitor the nitrogen cycle to see what happens in your tank. Your system should be able to break down the wastes into nitrates, if you are cycled you wont see any ammonia or nitrite.

If you get spikes, then you tank wasn't cycled to begin with, and I would get the LFS to hold your 2 corals for a while until your tank cycles. (throw in a chunk of raw shrimp for the bacteria to feed on)

[Slick Fork]

Ok, I get what you're saying about the value of actually seeing and being able to say "Yes, the ammonia spike happened last week" that makes sense to me.

I will disagree however with water changes being detrimental to the cycle. My understanding and belief is that as long as there is detectable ammonia the cycle is proceeding. Allowing it to reach toxic levels doesn't speed things up and doesn't help anything. Detectable ammonia to me means that there is more than the current level of bacteria can handle and the cycle is proceeding normally. I've always been told that a tank will cycle just as fast if you maintain 0.25 ppm as it will if you maintain 1 ppm and keeping the levels lower will make life easier on all the other desirable inhabitants of the tank (beneficial bacteria, in this case hitchhikers and other organisms) that have to live in there as you go through the cycle.

As far as die off from the rock, I should qualify that there was some just not as much as I was expecting. Everything I've read led me to believe that this is because the rock was mostly cured. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but if a tank is keeping up with ammonia and nitrate production (from some LR die off, waste from inverts, etc) is that not how you would define a cycled tank?

[TheReefGeek]

It is a bit misleading.

Your bacteria levels in the rock will balance out with the amount of waste being produced. More waste, more bacteria.

Imagine if you get very little die off, and do water changes, then you don't get much waste, so you don't get as much bacteria. Then you put fish in, and start feeding them, creating higher levels of waste than your existing bacteria can break down. The bacteria will rapidly re-produce to this new, higher level of waste, but in the meantime you have ammonia present in your system, followed by nitrite.

So the trick is really to not increase the waste level quicker than the bacteria can multiply to keep up. I like to cycle my tanks "hard" with lots of waste, probably to the point where bacteria dies off when I put livestock in it.

You really don't know if your tank is cycled or not right now, so you need to create some waste in there without sacrificing more fish, so feed your tank, measure the levels, and see what happens, otherwise you are just risking killing more livestock.

Or try a hardier fish like a damsel, but they are a PITA down the road.

[TheReefGeek]

You are right though, cycling without water changes is harder on the life in the live rock, it is a trade-off.

Either way you do it in the future, measure the nitrogen cycle every day or two so you know what is happening.

[christyf5]

You are correct that "detectable" ammonia is enough for bacteria to be handling the load. However, if you keep removing/lowering that detectable ammonia by doing water changes there will never be enough of a bacterial population required to reduce those levels to zero, which would make your cycle last longer IMO. Same goes for the bacterial populations that reduce nitrite and nitrate. So while it seems that your tank is cycling, really to me it isn't cycling properly.

[marie]

Just so you see the other side, I'm a firm believer in not letting the ammonia go up during cycling. I was doing water changes twice a day to keep the levels down and save as much life as I can :mrgreen:
The down side to cycling like that, is you have to add your livestock very slowly and I waited 4 months before adding any fish.

[TheReefGeek]

I added bactervital during my cycle to boost the bacteria levels quicker. Can't say if it worked or not, but I was happy with the life that made it through my cycle.

[Slick Fork]

Update time:

My home computer has been down for a while so I haven't had a chance to write. Coral's are all good as new, I've been testing my water every night (and have been since I put the Coral's in) and feeding as per the recommendation, My levels have been steady 0's across the board. I have no detectable ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate and a Ph that is keeping fairly stable at 8.4 so I am fairly confident that this tank is cycled, but I will keep my eye on it for another couple of weeks and see what happens.

[albert_dao]

Just to add my two cents:

PERSONALLY, I don't cycle when I'm dealing with cured rock.

[G1GY]

Just to add my two cents:

PERSONALLY, I don't cycle when I'm dealing with cured rock.

:lol:

Sort of the same deal here.(On the last one I set up.) I went from salty water - rock - fish - inverts - coral! In about a week. :)

[Johnny Reefer]

Me makes three.

[TheReefGeek]

Just to add my two cents:

PERSONALLY, I don't cycle when I'm dealing with cured rock.

True, if the rock is ACTUALLY cured. Many retailers sell their rock as "cured" live rock, but it isn't. I would always throw in some waste to make sure the rock is cycled, why take the risk

Unless you know it is from an existing tank and definately cured, but most people don't have that advantage when starting, they are buying from a retailer who needs to move their product, not sit on tanks full of rock curing prior to selling, they usually sell it even if it came in the same day!

[TheReefGeek]

Heck lots of retailers pre-sell their live rock, so it has been flown in from far away, then the same box is sent to your door, very smelly and uncured.

But if you can get your hands on cured live rock, then all the power to ya!

[marie]

I posted this in my Nano tank thread, but wanted to repost it here as well in case someone can help save my Coral's

What a sh@tty week.

Got my light fixture hung and that was all good and well. Decided to take my water down to calgary on monday to confirm that I was cycled, readings of zero across the board, so I grabbed a toadstool coral and a star polyp.

Took those home and all was well, the coral's seemed to adjust beautifully to life in the new tank.

Yesterday I had to go back to Calgary and stopped in at the store again, picked up a pair of tank bred clownfish (I figured with 15 gallons of capacity I would be ok) and a new powerhead. Acclimitize the fish just like I did the coral's (put them in a bucket and drip my tank water in gradually, it took about half an hour before I put them in the tank) Installed the powerhead, added the fish, all was well and happy. I checked on them before I went to bed and everyone seemed fine.

Came home from work today, clownfish are both dead, coral's look like they're on the way out. Other residents of the tank seem fine (2 hermit crabs 2 snails and a conch). I have no idea what could've caused this, as I didn't change anything at all between monday and today other then adding the new fish and powerhead. My parameter's are all fine, Salinity is good, Temperature is good Like I said as well, my inverts are all fine, but the fish are dead (I stuck them in the freezer in case I can return them), and my Coral's are on their way out.

I am really one unhappy camper right now, my coral's might still have a shot, does anyone have any idea what I should be looking for in order to give them a chance at recovery? Any help is appreciated
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Ahha, finally found the link I was looking for :lol: . Maybe this will help answer your question
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic23945-9-1.aspx

[Johnny Reefer]

Cured LR should have a nice, pleasant, clean ocean smell to it. Anyone who has doubts on whether or not a retailer is selling uncured LR as cured should ask to have a sniff....and I mean the rock itself, not the tank it is in. If they refuse, take your business elsewhere.

IME, not all shipments arrive at a retailer in a foul state. One LR purchase I made had arrived at the store the day before.....but it smelled good so I bought some. I forget the amount I bought, but I didn't have a problem with it.

Have a sniff.

Cheers:smile:,

[midgetwaiter]

True, if the rock is ACTUALLY cured. Many retailers sell their rock as "cured" live rock, but it isn't. I would always throw in some waste to make sure the rock is cycled, why take the risk

Unless you know it is from an existing tank and definately cured, but most people don't have that advantage when starting, they are buying from a retailer who needs to move their product, not sit on tanks full of rock curing prior to selling, they usually sell it even if it came in the same day!

Aren't you exaggerating a little here? Has anyone really tried to sell you rock that fresh as cured? Have you ever bought a bunch of rock and not been warned about the potential for some die off? It is something that people need to be aware of but adding a comment in the "retailers are evil" meme is not very useful. It's obvious when a store just got a rock shipment, we when get really encrusted stuff you can smell it in the parking lot for a few days.

[TheReefGeek]

Aren't you exaggerating a little here?

No, I don't think I am.

Has anyone really tried to sell you rock that fresh as cured?

No, they say it is cured rock that will experience die off during shipping. Shipping to them, and shipping to you.

It is a fact of life, I have no problem with it, that is why I think curing is so important though, you just never know. Smell is a good indicator though.

Did I ever say retailers SHOULDN'T move their product the day after a shipment? Absolutely not.

They have to, they can't hold rock until it is fully cured all the time.

All the rock I have purchased has been very smelly from all the die off during shipment, but that is fine, the cycle was very thorough, took 6 weeks, and I never lost any animals and never experienced any spikes again after the initial cycle.

But buyers need to be aware of this, that's all. Especiall when buying rock from the US, the die off during travel is going to "uncure" your rock.

But if you can get actual cured rock that doesn't smell, it speeds things up, but it can also cost more too.

[Johnny Reefer]

But if you can get actual cured rock that doesn't smell, it speeds things up, but it can also cost more too.
For the sake of "Newbies" that might be reading this....I reiterate.....cured rock does smell. It has a nice, pleasant, clean ocean smell to it. Just doesn't smell foul.

Cheers:smile: