What more could i do......(NEED HELP!!!)

[mooch28]

Hey guys.

Ive been having a ton of trouble growing coraline in my tank, and have been fighting algae for a few months now. Hair and cyno (green). First off, tank specs....

-110 gallon with 30 gallon sump (built in fuge)
-230 lbs of live rock, and 12 pounds of live rock ruble in sump
- 90 lbs of arragonite.
- ASM G2 skimmer (in sump)
- Two 250 watt DE 14000K pendants with icecap ballasts
- one Seio M2600 (2600 GPH) powerhead, on Seio M1100 (1100 GPH) power head.
- 1200 GPH quite one return pump.
- 44 times turn over in total with all pumps and powerheads.
- 5 Stage R/O and DI unit. Only R/O water is used for Top-offs, water changes etc.

Fish....

1 Powder blue tank
2 clown fish
1 butterfly (forgot name)
1 coral beauty angel.
30 hermit crabs

Water paremeters.........

0 Nitrates
0 Phosphate (although test kits are inaccurate)
0 Ammonia
0 Nitrites
420-440 Calium
9-10 DKH
8.2 PH
1.024 salinity
0 copper
All parameters are pretty much constant with very little to no changes, and have been for weeks. Now i have been batteling algae, and was told my main culprit is probably phosphates that can come from live food if liquid in frozen food is not drained before entering tank since my water is otherwise perfect. So i also added phosban last night, to remove an phosphates if they are existent.

Now THE BIG PROBLEMS.......

1. Snails wont survive for more then a few hours.
- The are not being attacked or killed, they just die off within few hours or over night.

2. Corals will not open, and eventually die off. (even mushrooms)

3. Coraline has barely taken off in months. my rock looks dirty and full of ditrius, and is full of green or hair algae.

Now, i just added the seio pumps today to increase flow. Before i had the return pump and just two 270 GPH zoomed powerheads. Also, i added phosban to rid of any possible phosphates in the system. Also, ive been dosing the tank with C-balance, but just started adding regulary a few days ago. Although, even without adding it, my calcium and alkalinity have been constant at 420-440 and 9/10 respectively.

My question is, what is killing my snails, and corals, and why isnt my coraline taking off. Is it possible phosphates were doing it??? Ive heard, that even small traces of phosphate can kill snails and corals. I tested for it, but i used a hagen test kit, and have no idea how accutrate they are. As for my coraline, i figured a lack of flow, and algae all over the rock was out comping the coraline algae.

Anyways, with phosban and increased flow, im hoping my problem will be fixed, but is there anything else i could do??

Included picture of my tank below so you can see how i positioned powerheads and rock work, etc...

Thanks!!

[midgetwaiter]

What are your temps like? Min / Max, rate of change?

You've certainly built a very nice system but all that gear can heat things up quickly. Even if you temp doesn't get too high a quick change can cause inverts trouble.

I'd say that this probably isn't your problem but it is easy to check and worth eliminating as a potential cause right off the bat.

[mooch28]

79 in morning, slowly hit 80-81 by evening with halides on, but thats over a 10-12 hour period, so i doubt thats my problem.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

[niloc16]

how long do you acclimate your snails and corals for? how long has your tank been running. what type of test kit are you using for copper. sometimes rock can leach trace amounts of copper and snails are very touchy when it comes to copper. was it a new tank when you bought? if not, what was it used for previously? if for SW then was it ever medicated? just some ideas to think about

[mooch28]

how long do you acclimate your snails and corals for? how long has your tank been running. what type of test kit are you using for copper. sometimes rock can leach trace amounts of copper and snails are very touchy when it comes to copper. was it a new tank when you bought? if not, what was it used for previously? if for SW then was it ever medicated? just some ideas to think about

- Ive tried accumulating snails and corals from 30 min - 2 hours, with the same results.

- Test kits are from aquarium pharme....

- Tank was brand new. I built the whole system...

- Tank has never been medicated.

[Ruth]

IME Hagen test kits are not that accurate. If possible can you take a water sample to a LFS and have them test it? (not sure where you are located) or if not maybe have a fellow reefer test with their test kits to verify your readings. I have also found that a proper level of magnesium is very helpful in promoting good coraline growth so you may want to test for that. That should not be leading to snail deaths though. Do you acclimate them when you get them or just drop them into the tank? Phosphates can lead to invert. deaths so that may be a culprit and you phosban should help. None of the popular test kits will give you an accurate test for (I always forget inorganic or organic) phosphates so it is kind of hit and miss. Also if you have cyno algea - which I don't see in your picture - it can be consuming the phosphates so you will still get a nil reading.
Not much help I am afraid but your reading would indicate that things should thrive in your tank. Any chance that the tank, rock or anything else may have been exposed to copper? That will quickly lead to invert deaths.

[niloc16]

what type of silicone did you use to build the tank? how long has the tank been running?

[mooch28]

what type of silicone did you use to build the tank? how long has the tank been running?

Sorry, i meant i built the system, pumps, skimmer, tank size etc. I didnt build the tank from scratch.

[atcguy]

Nothing more to say. You want accurate test results, invest the few extra bucks. Salifert all the way. What kind of water are you using??

[mooch28]

IME Hagen test kits are not that accurate. If possible can you take a water sample to a LFS and have them test it? (not sure where you are located) or if not maybe have a fellow reefer test with their test kits to verify your readings. I have also found that a proper level of magnesium is very helpful in promoting good coraline growth so you may want to test for that. That should not be leading to snail deaths though. Do you acclimate them when you get them or just drop them into the tank? Phosphates can lead to invert. deaths so that may be a culprit and you phosban should help. None of the popular test kits will give you an accurate test for (I always forget inorganic or organic) phosphates so it is kind of hit and miss. Also if you have cyno algea - which I don't see in your picture - it can be consuming the phosphates so you will still get a nil reading.
Not much help I am afraid but your reading would indicate that things should thrive in your tank. Any chance that the tank, rock or anything else may have been exposed to copper? That will quickly lead to invert deaths.


Took the water to LFS, he was really surprised to see water so perfect, yet so many promblems. My test resulted exactly the same as what he had. Even copper.....

And no the rock was never exposed to copper. I have also been using seachem copper removing media incase it ever did leach.

[mooch28]

Nothing more to say. You want accurate test results, invest the few extra bucks. Salifert all the way. What kind of water are you using??

All R/O water with DI unit.

[DanG]

Have you checked the tds of the ro water?

[mooch28]

Have you checked the tds of the ro water?

Yep, it's fine. Around 6-7. Also, R/O unit is only 4 months old.

[Manny]

You could try putting the power heads at in the front corners pointing back at the rock to get more direct flow. That may loosen up some of the detrious. Also in my experience coraline grows better under flourecent lighting and since you do not have any it my take a while to get going.
I also had problems with algae and at times I wanted to quit, but the problem is gone now and I love my tank and am glad I stuck it out.
As far as snails go I could never seem to keep them alive either and now I just don't bother.
Good luck with the tank.
By the way I like the aqua scaping you have done. It looks really good.

[Ruth]

Well I'm stumped too - and by the way I really like the way you have your tank aquascaped as well. What salt are you using? Sometimes salt mix can effect different life forms. Do you mix it for at least 24hrs before doing a water change.
I know that I have had things go whacky in my tanks that I have a hard time figuring out and when that happens I just do lots and lots of water changes - like 2 times a week and up to 50% change. My theory is that something is wrong with the chemistry in there and the only surefire way is to dilute-dilute-dilute. It brings your chemistry into balance and gets rid of bad guys in there. Yes it is a lot of work - I have lots of tanks - but has always gotten things back on track for me. Good luck.

[FragFactory]

Have all your snails/corals come from the same store?

Mike

[Renegade]

just a thaught what are you adding / using maybe chemicals you are using are mixing causing an ill effect. ? Is your rock very pouris ?? Stick with it. I wish i had half the equipment you have, i unfortanitly cheaped out with i first got into the hobby but i never had alge or death problems but with corals that were a little more finicky. Now i'm in process of upgrading to new system.

[Jason McK]

Is the tank covered with a glass lid?

The reason I ask is it could be an O2 problem. During the day things are fine do to photosynthesis but at nigh O2 levels could drop. This could be a problem or it could be the resulting drop in PH.

J

[Beverly]

I've read this thread from the beginning and can see no reason why corals and snails die on you.

However, I do have a few suggestions that might be of use generally speaking. If this was my 110g, I would:

- reaquascape to get rid of the "wall of rock". This would provide better flow throughout the whole tank.

- make sure you get good water surface movement to maximize air exchange between the tank and the air in the tankroom.

- make sure the room your tank is in gets fresh air. This will eliminate the possibility of high CO2 levels in your tank room and thus in your tank. High CO2 levels will often show up as low pH in the tank. You can test for CO2 levels in your tank room by taking a sample of tank water and aerate for 20 minutes with an air pump. Record pH before aeration and after. Then take another sample of tank water and aerate it outside for 20 minutes, recording before and after aeration pH. If there is a big difference between inside aeration pH and outside aeration pH, you don't have enough fresh air getting into your tankroom.

- add non-invasive macroalgae in either the sump or display tank to utilize excess nitrate and phosphate. The reason there is no nitrate/phosphate in your system is that the hair algae is using it up. If you had an excess of phosphate in your system, it would show up as cyanobacteria.

- reduce calcium to 400 ppm. Alk is fine at 9/10 dKH. Temp looks good, too. Also test for and adjust Mg to about 1325 ppm, though even if it is a bit low or high, it should not be the culprit in dead snails or corals.


BTW, I have had a number of low or high levels of the above mentioned Ca, Mg, alk, pH and have not had a problem with dying livestock. However, when chemistry and pH/CO2 levels finely tuned, I get better coral growth, better polyp extension and better coralline growth.

Do the pH/CO2 levels test and let us know what you discover on that front. It could be one of the bigger factors with your dead snails and corals.

[mooch28]

Well I'm stumped too - and by the way I really like the way you have your tank aquascaped as well. What salt are you using? Sometimes salt mix can effect different life forms. Do you mix it for at least 24hrs before doing a water change.
I know that I have had things go whacky in my tanks that I have a hard time figuring out and when that happens I just do lots and lots of water changes - like 2 times a week and up to 50% change. My theory is that something is wrong with the chemistry in there and the only surefire way is to dilute-dilute-dilute. It brings your chemistry into balance and gets rid of bad guys in there. Yes it is a lot of work - I have lots of tanks - but has always gotten things back on track for me. Good luck.

I use instant ocean salt, and let the salt mix for 3-4 days before adding. I adjust temps, alkalinty, Calcium, and salinty days before new mix is added to main tank. Also, i every parameter before water goes into to tank right before water change.

As for water changes, been doing that now for a few weeks. Atleast %15 per week.

[mooch28]

Have all your snails/corals come from the same store?

Mike

Nope different stores. Ive even tried corals from different systems wich are running real well.

[mooch28]

just a thaught what are you adding / using maybe chemicals you are using are mixing causing an ill effect. ? Is your rock very pouris ?? Stick with it. I wish i had half the equipment you have, i unfortanitly cheaped out with i first got into the hobby but i never had alge or death problems but with corals that were a little more finicky. Now i'm in process of upgrading to new system.


All i add is C-balance (A/B Calcium and alkalinity solution) and some liquid vitamen and foods for inverts. Oh, and sometimes some MG, but only once per week at manufacteres instructions.

[mooch28]

I've read this thread from the beginning and can see no reason why corals and snails die on you.

However, I do have a few suggestions that might be of use generally speaking. If this was my 110g, I would:

- reaquascape to get rid of the "wall of rock". This would provide better flow throughout the whole tank.

- make sure you get good water surface movement to maximize air exchange between the tank and the air in the tankroom.

- make sure the room your tank is in gets fresh air. This will eliminate the possibility of high CO2 levels in your tank room and thus in your tank. High CO2 levels will often show up as low pH in the tank. You can test for CO2 levels in your tank room by taking a sample of tank water and aerate for 20 minutes with an air pump. Record pH before aeration and after. Then take another sample of tank water and aerate it outside for 20 minutes, recording before and after aeration pH. If there is a big difference between inside aeration pH and outside aeration pH, you don't have enough fresh air getting into your tankroom.

- add non-invasive macroalgae in either the sump or display tank to utilize excess nitrate and phosphate. The reason there is no nitrate/phosphate in your system is that the hair algae is using it up. If you had an excess of phosphate in your system, it would show up as cyanobacteria.

- reduce calcium to 400 ppm. Alk is fine at 9/10 dKH. Temp looks good, too. Also test for and adjust Mg to about 1325 ppm, though even if it is a bit low or high, it should not be the culprit in dead snails or corals.


BTW, I have had a number of low or high levels of the above mentioned Ca, Mg, alk, pH and have not had a problem with dying livestock. However, when chemistry and pH/CO2 levels finely tuned, I get better coral growth, better polyp extension and better coralline growth.

Do the pH/CO2 levels test and let us know what you discover on that front. It could be one of the bigger factors with your dead snails and corals.


Well the wall of rock, has a ton of openings, and if i look behind the rock i can see the water flowing quite well. I don't see many deadspots, and with 4850 GPH of flow in the tank now, i think i should be fine.

Water movement on the top is excellent, as i pointed two of my return spouts right onto the water surface, which get agetated a lot.

Tank has no lids, but eggcrate. Room is big (22 feet x 12 feet), and allways getting fresh air.

I added caulerpa macroalgae for hair algae in the sump a few days ago. That should help, and i think it has allready. As for Cyno, i was getting it for some time, and wondering why. Perhaps i did have phosphates in the system as you sugest. Well, with phosban and the macro algae, hopefully it will be reduced to a minimum.

Im wondering why your asking me to reduce my calcium??? Any reason for doing so??

As for live stock dieing, its only with some inverts like snails. Inverts like hermit crabs have been pefectly fine, which i find odd.


Thanks a ton for your help, and all you guys!!

[Beverly]

Im wondering why your asking me to reduce my calcium??? Any reason for doing so??

I used to be under the impression that the higher the Ca in my tanks (up to 450 ppm), the better it is for organisims that use it in the calcification process. However, according to this very complex chemistry article, The Chemical and Biochemical Mechanisms of Calcification, more is not better ....

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/apr2002/chem.htm

Here's a quote from near the end of the article. Read the whole article (a few times) to better understand the many biochemical processes at work in calcification....

Implications for Reefkeeping: Calcium Concentration

Reefkeeping hobby lore has it that boosting the calcium concentration above natural levels of 410 ppm does little to enhance calcification in most corals. That idea is supported by experiments on Stylophora pistillata where calcification becomes limited by calcium at levels below natural levels, but is not increased above about 360 ppm.4 The relationship between external calcium concentration and calcification rate displays exactly the behavior to be expected if an active transport process were limiting the calcification rate, and that this transport process is saturated with calcium at concentrations above 360 ppm.

Using some of the information provided in previous sections, we can understand why this may be the case. Again, for Stylophora pistillata, as the calcium level is increased in an artificial seawater medium from 0 to 800 ppm, the calcium uptake by the coelenteron increases in a linear fashion.4 The uptake by most of the tissues other than the calicoblastic epithelium also increases in a linear fashion. There is no data specific to the calicoblastic epithelium, but the data show that calcification does not increase above 360 ppm calcium.

If the calcium is let into the calicoblastic epithelium by a calcium channel, then the influx of calcium is dependent on the concentration in the coelenteron, and the proportion of time that the calcium channels are open. Since the cells themselves control the gating of the calcium channels, they presumably can control their internal calcium levels at will UNLESS there is not enough calcium outside of the cells to go through the gate, cross the calicoblastic epithelium cells, and get to the active transporter that sends it into the ECF. Consequently, one interpretation is that at external calcium concentrations below 360 ppm, the calcium flux into the calicoblastic cells becomes the rate-limiting step in calcification.


HTH :)

[Matt]

What the heck, we're all just guessing here, right? I'm going to guess a heavy metal issue. Maybe there's a problem with some of your LR, or maybe somebody played "wishing well" with a few pennies you haven't noticed... In the case of any metal, the process of leeching takes a while, so I'd do a couple of massive water changes ~50% or so, and then introduce some snails. If they live for a while, then die in a week or two, you'll be replacing a lot of your LR...

Just guessing. Free advice is worth the price you pay.

Matthew

[Quagmire]

Im wondering if something is poisoning the water.Any clean freaks in the house going crazy with glass cleaner or furniture polish?Something like those in the water would cause problems without showing up on the tests.

[Ruth]

some liquid vitamen and foods for inverts.
What liquid food and vitamens? You probably don't need to add any liquid food at all - even DT's can pollute your tank and right now it seems you are having problems so I would discontinue for a time.
While you are checking out the "clean freak" also check to see if anyone has been using insecticide anywhere around the tank or even in the house. I know I had this problem a couple of years ago and caught my son with the Raid can!