Let's talk about cleaning crews

[albert_dao]

Okay, are there any other people out there, like me, who have tanks that are run without cleaning crews, who experience no noticeable drawbacks?

I've not run cleaning crew for just a little over a year now. I don't have any weird algae outbreaks or excess detritus. In addition, I never have to deal with problems like dead snail shells, frags getting knocked over, or things getting caught in pumps and plumbing.

FYI, 150 gallon SPS dominated reef tank. Live rock and protein skimming with carbon support. The tank is BB. I have just started up on Zeovit, but I have been experiencing the same tank cleanliness for a long time prior.

On the other side, how many of you out there have experienced profound improvements in tank cleanliness with the addition of a cleaning crew?

For the sake of this discussion, I'm going to ommit the benefits of problem solving animals like emerald crabs (bubble algae), peppermint shrimp (aiptasia) and Mexian turbo snails (turf algae) for the reason that these are problems which are introduced, not relative to the condition of a tank.

DISCUSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

[OCDP]

The only clean-up crew I need is a few snails. Without them, I notice much more algae on the glass, lots more detritus buildup and so on.... but I also have a small tank, so I am sure that plays a role in all of that. I definitely think snails are important for a clean up crew... JMO.

[muck]

What kind of maintenance does this tank recieve? weekly? monthly?

[Kryten]

Hourly? :biggrin: j/k The fact that it's BB probably plays a role. Although, now that my nano has been running for a while, I'm starting to be concerned about my cleaning crew going hungry. Aside from a very light film of algae that grows on the glass, and I assume the rocks as well, there's not much else for the algae eaters to feed on. There is zero nuisance algae left.

[Funky_Fish14]

I have... 4 snails in my 75g, and one hermit crab which I just bought in the past couple days cause it looked neat. All I've had for the past year has been those few snails(I think I lost one since then). I notice they make tracks in the very small film of algae that forms on the glass, but they dont seem to be very beneficial in my system, and I've found hermit crabs to be more of a nuicance than anything, producing alot of detrius and eating little algae. I had alot of hermits and snails in my tanks in the past, with the same result I have now.

Epoxy sandbed with no skimmer, just a fuge.... 1 clown, 1 pajama cardinal, 1 mandarin, 1 orange shoulder tang.

Chris

[christyf5]

Hourly? :biggrin:

:rofl:

Personally, I could not live without snails. Ok I could live without them but my reef sanity could not. Where would I be without the snails that cleaned up the brown snot after every dinoflagellate cycle? What about when they make neat little trails on the glass that people notice before anything else in the tank? (besides the cleaning magnet that keeps them entertained for hours :rolleyes:).

As for hermit crabs, they're all evil. Even when they're relegated to the sump they find a way to wreck something down there (pump impellers most likely) :razz:

[OCDP]

Hermit crabs are useless... I got rid of all of mine because they had done nothing for my tank. They were somewhat entertaining though, I had a scarlet hermit that would go climbing up the tank walls digging into the silicone, then get on top of my cleaning magnet and chill out there for the day.... it was pretty hilarious.

[Delphinus]

Whatever would people mount frags on though without dead snail shells???

Actually .... in all seriousness .... friends don't let friends glue frags to snail shells!! Isn't a snail's death sad enough as it is? We don't need to make it a tragedy as well.

[Canadbis]

Whatever would people mount frags on though without dead snail shells???

Actually .... in all seriousness .... friends don't let friends glue frags to snail shells!! Isn't a snail's death sad enough as it is? We don't need to make it a tragedy as well.


Guess I will pull it off then...
JK
It wouldn't stay anyhow.

[Funky_Fish14]

Too true, hermits just knock things over too... nice SPS being one of them!:twised:

[Railskinner]

After all the reading that i done , concerning startup of a new system in regards to cleanup crews, i thought cleanup crews were necessary. But are they really necessary? hmmm. Reading thru these threads or post's that u guys have written seems like u don't really need them.Maybe we should have a snail race , turbo's only and watch r-s-car go. Winner takes all . mmm mmm good. ESCARGO's

[Canadbis]

sofar the people discussing this thread say no to cleanup crew. Does that mean that you dont use even cleaner shrimp?

[Delphinus]

Cleaner shrimp are ornamentals -- ie. there's no way you could consider those as "cleanup crew". They may jump on fish and clean out their scales or whatever, picking at parasites but even as such they would not be a substitute for proper husbandry -- it's just cool to watch. :)

I think that some cleanup crew serves a purpose. However it is entirely possible that the recommendations are seriously overkill. I.e., you may not need 40 or 50 snails, if you overpopulate eventually they will starve anyhow, and then you have all these empty snail shells littering the place.

In new tanks though it seems common to get a bad hair algae outbreak and if nothing eats that then it can be hard to get over. The only problem is that whatever eats that, will run out of food when it's gone, and may need to be fed. Things like sea hares are awesome for cleaning out a bad outbreak but then it's a crapshoot as to whether they'll adapt to being fed manually, or just starve out.

[Canadbis]

Thanks Tony
That clears things up a bit.
I had read that there should be 1 snail for every 2 Gallons?
what does everyone think about that.

[TheReefGeek]

I think the recommendations for cleaner crew are WAY over stated.

I don't think hermits do anything for keeping my tank clean, but I will always have some because they are so much fun to watch, and people who see my tank for the first time just love watching the shells crawl around. I definately lose some snails to them, but oh well.

Snails definately help clean the tank, but noticable to me, only slime algae, which I have very little of because of my UV. But I do like the look of snails climbing on the front glass, so I will always keep a few.

But when it comes to sandbed, you need something to keep it sifted and clean. This could come from snails, but it can also come from sand sifting gobies.

So my cleaner crew is small, and is just to add diversity to the tank. I like to add anything to my tank that helps maintain a balanced ecossytem, and im sure they do deal with detrius and such, I wouldn't know unless I got rid of them.

Definately having a bare bottom tank would make a difference in "requiring" a cleaner crew or not, because with bare bottom you can easily keep detris under control yourself, with high enough flow and some mechanical filtration nothing will be able to settle and rot.

Hope that helps.

[albert_dao]

Thanks Tony
That clears things up a bit.
I had read that there should be 1 snail for every 2 Gallons?
what does everyone think about that.


That's BS. More like one snail for every 10-15 gallons, pending on the severity of your algae problem. Truth be told though, you're probably better off getting a good magnet cleaner...

Edit: my personal feelings on this are that cleaning crew stocking recommendations are the biggest scam in livestock. I can't think of a single case where such a high density maintains itself past the first four weeks.

[TheReefGeek]

And much cheaper to buy a sea hare that will mow down all your algae in no time if you need it done.

[Canadbis]

Great discusion Albert!
SO...if you WERE going to put a cleaning crew in (whether you feel you should or not)
What would be the best suggestions then
Lets say 33G setup.
48lbs Live rock,yada, yada

[TheReefGeek]

I would throw in 10 snails, and 3 hermits.

[G1GY]

I realy like the look of Hermit crabs................. In someone else's reef.

I've had a few and reallized in a matter of hours that they are little reef terrorists with an agenda to wage war on me!

One Emerald crab and a few hitchhiker filter feeding crabs, but other than that only snails for me. :)

[midgetwaiter]

The changes I've made in my system the past few months have drastically lowered my need for hermits and the like. I have to actively feed the little buggers I still have in there. Even with a frogfish living in the fuge and dumping god knows how much protein based waste into the water from his feeders.

Things like improving flow patterns, a good skimmer setup wet and using stuff like macro algae and zoanthids to suck nutrients out of the water seem to make the difference. In comparison my other nano reef with the sand bed and the bio filter still has a bit of algae going. It reminds me more of my puffer tank where nitrate and phosphate are always a problem due to the food they eat.

As much as I used to argue that Albert was advocating an unnecessarily stringent BB / Berlin style I've found it really works. I even had an appropriate sized magnet cleaner ordered into work for me but I'm finding that I just don't need the thing now.

[albert_dao]

*fanfare please*

... Anyway, Matt, your best bet is to probably just grab yourself an emerald crab or two. As far as traditional cleaners goes, I'd skimp on stocking them unless you really had an overblown diatom problem. I'm going to recommend what I tell all the other new reefer-heads starting out, "add 4-6 Trochus or Cerith snails, you can always get more later if you feel you need them." Most people don't get more.

But yeah, for people who keep a shallow sand bed at the bottom of their tanks, I suspect the same principles apply. You could probably skimp on regular crabs and snails and instead opt for more effective detrivores such as small conches, certain brittle stars and possibly a tiger tail (assuming your bed has enough surface area to support one). All that aside, none of these guys have anything on a gravel vac used weekly. Go ahead, try it, take a gravel vac to your sand for five minutes. $10 says it will put your cucumbers to shame :D

[EmilyB]

I think cleaning crew depends on fish stocking personally.

:mrgreen:

[albert_dao]

How's 14 medium (3-5") fish in a 150 gallon fed twice times a day PLUS massive daily zooplankton feedings for the coral? All this with no mechanical filtration and a cruddy Coralife Super Skimmer?

[StirCrazy]

How's 14 medium (3-5") fish in a 150 gallon fed twice times a day PLUS massive daily zooplankton feedings for the coral? All this with no mechanical filtration and a cruddy Coralife Super Skimmer?

how often are you doing water changes and how much, what lighting is on the tank, how often do you vaccume your sand and clean the glass, and so on and so on. all this stuff plays a part in how effective a cleaning crew will be and weather one will even be needed.

Steve

[TheReefGeek]

That number of fish in a 150 is not a problem IMO, but you should upgrade your skimmer, and look into adding a fuge and/or UV.

Since adding my fuge, upgrading my skimmer, and adding a UV sterilizer my tank has almost no slime aglae growth on the glass at all, I haven't used my magnet in a long while. In fact my coralline algae growth is more substantial than my green slime on my front glass.

I added these at different times. My skimmer upgrade improved my water quality to allow me to have LPS and SPS successfully, but my softies growth slowed down substantially.

My fuge with various macro algae has out-competed my hair algae in the display with is great.

My UV has cleared up my green slime amazingly well.

[danny zubot]

Whatever would people mount frags on though without dead snail shells???

Actually .... in all seriousness .... friends don't let friends glue frags to snail shells!! Isn't a snail's death sad enough as it is? We don't need to make it a tragedy as well.

Who said anything about waiting til the snail is dead?:mrgreen:

Seriously though. IMO, clean up crews are valuable, but its all relative to the rest of the tank inhabitants. For example, in Albert's tank there are a lot of tangs that probably promote tank cleanliness. Additionally, how well cured the live rock is, the amount of flow, size of skimmer and other filtration will all play a role in your waste levels, and thus determining the need for a cleanup crew. Albert's tank has good flitration, no sandbed and excessive compulsive tangs, so snails and hermits are not needed. Although, a peppermint or two could probably be put to good use.:biggrin:

On the topic of crew size, I agree that vendors over estimate the size of crew needed. Several times over the past couple of years I have attempted to elevate the size of my crew to the average standards of most vendors. What has happened every time is that through inter and intraspecific competition I end up with smaller "happier" crew. One that can be effectively sustained in my tank. Yet at any time, no matter the size of my crew, I/ve always had the same amount of algea on my glass, and none on my live rock, this is constant. My tank will sustain no more or less of a clean up crew than sum of its various food sources and territories.

Hope this made some sense, sorry for rambling!

[DanG]

Be careful if you decide to get cerith snails, I bought 3 of them and now have several hundred.

[TheReefGeek]

That would be awesome! You could sell or give them away then.

I have bought all kinds of snails, they never seem to multiply for me.

[albert_dao]

how often are you doing water changes and how much, what lighting is on the tank, how often do you vaccume your sand and clean the glass, and so on and so on. all this stuff plays a part in how effective a cleaning crew will be and weather one will even be needed.

Steve

The truth? There's two XM 10k's and a single XM 20k, all in 150 watt flavors; these are supported by two 65 watt actinics and two 65 watt 50/50's. Weekly 5 gallon water changes and a magnet every three to five days.

That number of fish in a 150 is not a problem IMO, but you should upgrade your skimmer, and look into adding a fuge and/or UV.

Since adding my fuge, upgrading my skimmer, and adding a UV sterilizer my tank has almost no slime aglae growth on the glass at all, I haven't used my magnet in a long while. In fact my coralline algae growth is more substantial than my green slime on my front glass.

I added these at different times. My skimmer upgrade improved my water quality to allow me to have LPS and SPS successfully, but my softies growth slowed down substantially.

My fuge with various macro algae has out-competed my hair algae in the display with is great.

My UV has cleared up my green slime amazingly well.

I've never had problems with algae or nutrients. SPS grow very well (it's the store frag tank) and the water has amazing clarity.

I've considered throwing in a different skimmer since we have all these, now unsellable, Euroreef CS series skimmers lying around, but it'll have to wait until I figure out how much room I have left in the sump once the Zeovit reactor gets in there.

Anyway, I'll let a couple pictures do all the talking:

http://www.cichlids.ca/images/gallery/670Tank1.jpg?c=b62627bfdfb62e2ee7bc10a491a6d64a

Tank as of two weeks ago.

http://www.cichlids.ca/images/gallery/6691.jpg?c=b62627bfdfb62e2ee7bc10a491a6d64a

Tank roughly six months prior (well before I started dosing Zeovit products).

Geez, comparing the two, it becomes painfully obvious how terrible the Coralife 10k 150 watt bulbs are.

[albert_dao]

In anycase, don't get me wrong, I see a place for cleaning crews in the hobby. Unfortunately, it's usually in tanks that have been set up poorly or cycling. Mature, well set up tanks rarely need inverts crawling around to keep things in clean shape.

[andrewsk]

Albert,

What is the Background color you use on that tank. I like it a lot. I was trying to decide between Black and Blue but the other Blues I have seen are to dark. This is still blue, but gives more of the illusion of depth than the darker ones.

Thanks

[albert_dao]

It's pure white. Much better than blue or black, IMO. Makes the tank look super bright and, according to guys on RC, is better at reflecting light than tinfoil.

[TheReefGeek]

Pure white, interesting idea.

What bulbs are the new picture taken under?

[albert_dao]

Two XM 10k's and one XM 20k. They're pretty appealing to look at, but I suspect I'd much rather have had the Pheonix 14k's.

Go Pheonix for being ever so descriptive with their bulb packaging...

[TheReefGeek]

I run XM 20Ks and love em. Much of a price difference to the Phoenix in the same watts?

[albert_dao]

I dunno, I sell them all for the same price. I suspect the price difference in wholesale is nickels and dimes.

See, the thing is, I had the bulbs there for that tank, but I didn't know which bulb was which. All these stupid metal halide bulbs come in the same generic white cardboard box with only serial numbers. That said, I went with the XM's since I could readily ID the kelvin temperature.





ANYWAY, let's not get sidetracked. I have a more objective question:

We've established that cleaning crews are, more or less, an optional part of a well planned set up. That in mind, what species does everyone have the best success with? How about total failures?

Here's a few of mine:

Good - Trochus snails, Cerith snails, and small conches.

Medium - most non-predatory brittle stars, sea hares.

Terrible - Astrea, Turbo, ALL HERMIT CRABS...

[danny zubot]

This is only specific to my tank, which has no filimentous algea or sandbed algae.

EDIT*

Excelent:

Pistols shrimp/goby combo-will collect any unsightly snail shells, keeps the underside of rockwork clear of detritus, sifts through all sand.

Good:
Blue and brown legged hermits-for rock cleaning abilities
Zebra/fighting conch- for sandbed cleaning
Cleaner shrimp- for cleaning corals of detritus

Medium:
Any snails- really only clean the glass in my tank.

Terrible:
Olive snail-keeps sandbed mixed but is only seen once every other month.
Turbo's- knock over frags and die more frequently that other snails.

[TheReefGeek]

I would say that the single best cleaner crew in my tank in my dragon goby. He keeps the sand in my 180g nice and white, all by himself.

My tangs keep macro algae growth invisible.

If you have a hair algae problem, sea hares are priceless, but they don't live long.

My snails are fun to watch, but for cleaning they dont do much for me not even glass, because they don't do the whole glass, only patches. They probably help keep the rocks algae and detrius free though. I have a variety of snails, including cerith, astrea, and turbos, I would not buy turbos again though. I think there are two kinds of astrea, one that is good, one that sux, can't remember though.

Hermits are again fun to watch, but they do take down snails ocassionaly, and I don't SEE them eating detrius much, but they could be. If I had to pick one hermit to have, I would go with scarlets. They have never stolen a snails shell or killed for one, they don't go ape nuts over flipped snails like my zebras, brown legs, and blue legs do. The next least-agressive are my blue legs, I would not buy zebras or browns again. I had a couple hitchicker hermits that had black legs with orange bands, they were huge, and awesome, didn't bother anything.

[vertex]

Interesting thread everyone. I agree mostly that hermits are not that useful. I have about 15 blue legs in my 120G, but they are all at least a year old, as I won't be buying new ones. They only seem to hlep keep some detritus off the rocks. Red scarlets are agressive like the blue legs and seem to concentrate on small patches of algae for me, they are great, but I only have 3 of them.

As for Good snails: Stomatella, Cerith for sand bed tanks and Trochus / Astrea snails are my favorite. All these snails multiply fast in my tank (especially the trochus and astrea). Always have lots of tiny guys growing up in the sump. Once they are bigger, I toss em up into the display tank.