Need help with sump/fuge

[Ruth]

Well I have sold my 44g cube so it looks like I am a step closer to setting up my 300g cube.
I need some help in designing a sump/fuge for this thing. I am thinking maybe 3' X 3' but other than that don't really have too much of a clue.
Also if there is anyone out there that would be interested in building this baby for me please let me know. I think I want it built out of acrylic for the weight and ease of drilling if I decide to change setup down the road.
I just know that some of you DIY wizards will be able to come up with something for me.:mrgreen:

[Willow]

hey ruth, i really like the design of this sump, it looks like it has everything you could ever want out of a sump.

http://www.melevsreef.com/dfwmas/plin/115g_sump.html

http://www.melevsreef.com/dfwmas/plin/115g_sump.jpg

[Ruth]

That looks like a pretty good design Willow. Anyone out there that might be able to build something like this?

[Willow]

callum in surrey is starting to build sumps and i think kari in calgary works with acrylic as well.

[TheReefGeek]

Couple considerations for a sump:

1. Skimmer footprint - make sure your skimmer section can hold your desired skimmer

2. Return section - make this small enough so that your display tank can take the extra water volume if your drain lines stop working

3. Fuge - Water flow management, carefull planning required to get the desired gph and direction of water flow

4. If you are using auto top off, prepare for that in the return section

5. Probe holders in desired locations

6. Drainability - for water changes, you might want to install a bulkhead system down load that will allow you to completely drain the sump or at least section of it, to assist in water changes.

[Kabong]

2. Return section - make this small enough so that your display tank can take the extra water volume if your drain lines stop working .

This is only a good idea if your gonna be using an auto topoff.
Otherwise your just going to end up manualy topping it up all the time.
So your pump doesnt run dry.

[TheReefGeek]

Very true. I would think a 300g display tank would have an auto-top off system.

I have played around a LOT with aut top off systems. And the conclusion that I have finally come to is that the system that works best for me is:

1. Get a sprinkler solenoid from the hardware store, install on tap that feeds RODI, use a splitter with valves if this is shared with a washer, as mine is.

2. Plug the sprinker solenoid into a timer

3. Wait a set period of time (say 1 day) and measure evaporation. Then turn on the timer and figure out how long the RODI takes to fill the sump back up to desired level. If the time is 3 hours, then set the timer for just shy of that

4. Evaporation changes a little with the seasons and changes to your setup, but now your tank fills up almost to what it evaporates per day. What I do is when I see the tank a little low, I just advance the timer so the RODI click on, and leave it. I have to advance the timer maybe once a week, and I don't have to worry about float valves failing or anything. And the sprinkler solenoid is close when there is no power to it.

Sometimes the simplest way is the best.... For redundancy you could setup 2 timers in case one fails.

[Willow]

jebus... over engineering. try an abs float valve to a garbage can full of ro water and your done.

[TheReefGeek]

try an abs float valve to a garbage can full of ro water and your done
I have tried this exact setup, and had it fail horribly and flood.

[TheReefGeek]

And that is not an auto top off unless you run the RODI into your tank not a garbage can.

When your distance from RODI unit to destination is too great, there is not enough pressure build up in the line to trigger the hydraulic valve (which you didn't mention, and if you don't have, then your waste water production NEVER stops!) to shut down the RODI unit. This is why drinking water systems use pressure bladders to build up the required pressure.

Also relying on a single float valve builds in no redundancy for when it clogs and fails open.

[TheReefGeek]

And in terms of "over-engineering" I think that a sprinkler solenoid and timer is just as easy to install than a float valve, if not easier because you dont have to drill anything.

Sorry this sounded so harsh, but when it comes to auto-top off and the potential for flooding, I take giving accurate information very seriously because it is the kind of thing that gets people out of the hobby after a flood that kills off your tank.

[Willow]

I have tried this exact setup, and had it fail horribly and flood.

float valves fail in the off position not on! you must have set some record for flooding a floor with an abs float valve.

[Willow]

And that is not an auto top off unless you run the RODI into your tank not a garbage can.

When your distance from RODI unit to destination is too great, there is not enough pressure build up in the line to trigger the hydraulic valve (which you didn't mention, and if you don't have, then your waste water production NEVER stops!) to shut down the RODI unit. This is why drinking water systems use pressure bladders to build up the required pressure.

Also relying on a single float valve builds in no redundancy for when it clogs and fails open.


?? dude what are you talking about? abs float valves are gravity fed, no hydraulics, no pressure and you don't need a backup system. it floats, when it needs water it opens a seal and water flows thru when it gets up to level it shuts off. there is littlerly no safer or user friendly fail safe system better that an abs float valve. and you defiantly don't have to drill anything. i think you need to go back to the drawing board on your theories of how float valves work.

[TheReefGeek]

?? dude what are you talking about? abs float valves are gravity fed, no hydraulics, no pressure and you don't need a backup system. it floats, when it needs water it opens a seal and water flows thru when it gets up to level it shuts off. there is littlerly no safer or user friendly fail safe system better that an abs float valve.


Im talking about an auto top off with an RODI unit, which a single abs float valve is not going to do. If you think it will, please explain in DETAIL.

You would need to install a hydraulic valve that triggers when there is pressure build-up in the line, and the valve closes the waste water production for you. Otherwise, when your abs float valve closes, your RODI unit just keeps on pumping out waste water.

Float valves can fail open, if anything clogs them from closing properly, then water just keep on flowing!

[Jason McK]

I don't care how brilliant the design I would never attach a RO/DI unit directly to a top off. I have a 100GPD RO/DI and would not want a failure in that to flood my system.

Having a holding tank that supplies your AUTO-TOP-OFF is still and AUTO-TOP-OFF.


J

[TheReefGeek]

Yep, it absolutely is, never said anything different. But I find that you then need two auto-top offs. One to control your RODI to a reservoire, then one from your reservoire to your sump/display.

[TheReefGeek]

Anyhow, shouldn't be filling this thread with an auto-top off discussion.

[Willow]

Yep, it absolutely is, never said anything different.

yeah actually you did.

And that is not an auto top off unless you run the RODI into your tank not a garbage can.

also how did you get a flood with an abs float valve im curious?

[mr_alberta]

A float valve from a humidifier to your R/O unit should suffice. As a failsafe, you can use a float switch hooked up to a solenoid that cuts off the water supply to your R/O unit if the water level in your sump gets too high in conjunction with the float valve. If you are really worried, you can set up a couple of switches in case 1 should fail (if everything fails, you're just unlucky! :lol: )

[TheReefGeek]

Sorry Ruth, apparantly they want to continue this discussion here.

yeah actually you did.

Quote:
And that is not an auto top off unless you run the RODI into your tank not a garbage can.


I said that an RODI supplying a garbage can is not an auto top off. And its not!!!!!!! You have to then run your garbage can water into your tank for it to be an auto top off!!!!!!!! Without involving the display tank or sump you won't convince me it is an auto top off system! It is just a reservoire filling system that will produce waste water 24hrs a day from your RODI unit!!!!!!

So with just a float valve, how do you shut off waste water production from your RODI if you dont use any other valves, just a single abs float?

I have had the pleasure of flooding multiple ways, with the exception of my current setup. I have had float valves fail in multiple ways (stick open, and just plain leak), I have had the hyraulic plumbed into the RODI fail, and I have had float switches fail even with 4, yes 4 redundant float switches, set with 2 series and 2 in parallel for "ultimate" protection. And before I used a time, I have forgot to unplug my RODI when filling a reservoire, and filled the reservoire then my floor.

So for simplicity sake, when wanting to control an RODI directly to your sump, I have found a sprinkler solenoid and a timer set to replace approximate evaporation rate to be the "best".

If there is a better, safer way to setup a completely automated system I would love to learn it. After having multiple float switches burn out and fail in the on position, I just dont trust them anymore. Now if my timer starts to fail im screwed, I dont know what else to do!

[Ruth]

Hey you guys I can end this really quickly because........it's my thread:mrgreen: I don't have an RODI unit and won't any time soon. Reason is not enough room in my house to be able to have the equipment I would need to bring my well water down to a useable TDS (1500 - 2000ppm TDS) so I will be running auto top off out of a garbage can or other vessel. This way you can also control the amount of water that is in your vessel and should not have a flood although you can burn up a pump
I don't need a chamber for the protein skimmer as I will be running a BK 500ext. on it. I want to have a refugium, a place to house my return pump, heaters, zeovit reactor (if I decide to use zeo on this tank) and misc. other pieces of equipment that I might aquire.

[TheReefGeek]

So do you bring in jugs of distilled then for water change a top off water?

[Ruth]

Rory, I currently have a 230g, 190g, 44g, 24g and 12g tanks and I buy and pack all RODI water from a water store in town that I have worked with quite a bit and trust the way they treat their water. I do a minimum of 15% bi weekly water changes on all of them. It's a lot of work I guess but honestly I don't mind. Packing all that water has definately helped out my muscle tone!

[Jason McK]

Ruth,
Jack and I built a sump a couple of years ago. It was quite easy. I simply had an acrylic shop cut the pieces to the sizes I wanted and used Weldon 40 to glue it all together. I used silicone to add baffles.
It might be a challenge to find a shop around you but I'm sure shipping of pieces of Acrylic would be cheaper than a completed tank.

If your interested I could pick up and mail pieces to you?

Or you could talk to Wendell

J

[mr_alberta]

Hi Jason,

How did you like using the Weld-On 40? Its a 2 part right?

[Ruth]

Oh Jason thanks but you have no idea what an idiot I am when it comes to building stuff or putting it together - heck I had to bring my Calcium Reactor down with me at Christmas so Wendell could put it together for me (It is a grotech reactor and the instructions were not very clear - I did manage to put my Precision Marine one together). No I would be far better off getting someone to build it for me and either paying for shipping or coming and picking it up. I have had an e-mail from a guy in Saskatchewan that is willing to build it for me and has built a few and sent me some designs that look pretty good to me.
I guess I would like suggestions for design of a sump/fuge that will sit below the tank (or behind it in a separate fish/equipment room. For now I will not be able to have a fuge sit above the tank which would be ideal but it will have to part of the sump or a separate tank connected with bulkheads and plumbing.

[Funky_Fish14]

Just a note:

The top-off system Rory explains he is using is the same concept as the dosing pump Fish was using on his famous cube. Water is added to the system at approximately the same rate as evaporation occurs... and levels are adjusted whenever needed.

Chris

[Matt]

Rory, I currently have a 230g, 190g, 44g, 24g and 12g tanks and I buy and pack all RODI water from a water store in town that I have worked with quite a bit and trust the way they treat their water. I do a minimum of 15% bi weekly water changes on all of them. It's a lot of work I guess but honestly I don't mind. Packing all that water has definately helped out my muscle tone!500 gallons x 15% biweekly = 75 gallons every two weeks. That's 15 jugs of water, or 7/week. Now THAT'S a commitment (and an exercise program).

I stand in awe, and will NEVER AGAIN whine about having to carry my water up and down one flight of stairs.

[Ruth]

I also evaporate 7-10g a day so yeah I pack a lot of water. The really funny part of it is that I drink my well water. The only thing that gets the good stuff is my fish tanks.

[Johnny Reefer]

Im talking about an auto top off with an RODI unit, which a single abs float valve is not going to do. If you think it will, please explain in DETAIL.

Not sure what "abs" stands for, but I believe this might be one?
http://www.hagen.com/canada/english/ponds/product.cfm?CAT=30&SUBCAT=3021&PROD_ID=03018420010101

If I'm not mistaken, an RO/DI unit can be hooked up to it. Hard to see in the picture but the tubing connects to the small adapter piece seen in the package on the left hand side. Just above that tapered piece.

When I get my crap together and move and do some major upgrading at the same time, I plan on running an RO/DI unit straight to float valves (multiple tanks) exactly like this one.

Sorry Ruth. Had to get that in.

Cheers:smile:,

[TheReefGeek]

Can't tell much from the picture, but I don't think that will control your RODI unit.

If you want to run your RODI unit to float valves, you will have to rely on pressure in the line (created when the float valve closes) to trigger a diaphram in a hyraulic valve plumbed right into your RODI unit. It is actual the pressure difference on the two sides of the diaphram that triggers it to shut off water to the RODI, thus cutting off waste water production as well. BUT, if your line between the RODI and the float valve(s) is too long, you will have to install pressure bladders (check out spectrapure systems for an example of these) to create enough pressure to trigger the diaphram to flip.

The other way is to control it electronically with float valves. Very possible but I have had too many fail open to trust them anymore myself.

[Willow]

you know the aquasafe units have a built in auto shut off unit. i still wouldnt hook it directly to my tank but you could.

[Delphinus]

It's not necessarily a good idea to hook up the RO/DI to a tank anyhow, even if you have the solenoid shutoff control. The problem is that the evaporation rate is 24/7, so you would be constantly cycling the RO/DI on and off for short bursts. And actually, a higher GPD rating of the membrane compounds this, as you'll have it on for only a few seconds at a time before the level is maintained again. This is murder on a RO membrane and will contribute to early failure of the membrane.

As far as I'm concerned, the auto shutoff feature of a RO/DI unit should be used to avoid spillage when filling your reservoir. I.e. if it takes 10 hours to fill your reservoir you can just turn it on and forget about it, not have to worry about remember 10.5 hours later that you now have an overflowing reservoir.

You could probably make it a little better by expanding your deadband by creative use of float switches but even then .. it's still the same problem of repeated on/off cycles. I.e., say 40gpd replacement water per week, your membrane will last you much longer if you do one production run of 40g instead of 100 production runs of .4g.

Thus my recommendation is float valves on your sump fed by a reservoir, RO/DI only to fill the reservoir using a float valve on the reservoir and the auto shutoff kit on the RO/DI as a luxury item to afford you peace of mind when manually filling that reservoir as needed.

PS. My $0.02 as far as float valves failing .. generally speaking this is a very rare occurence if set up properly and maintained regularly with diligence. Also the likelihood of failing is more in the nature of a clog, rather than failing stuck open. So if you find your float valve clogged, you just clean it and away you go.

[albert_dao]

OH LOOK AT ME, I'M TONY AND I HAVE 5700 POSTS.


...


....


Well Tony, I don't know what to say to that.

[Delphinus]

Uh .. Ok, I'm not really sure how to take that. :neutral: Um .. haha?

[albert_dao]

Uh .. Ok, I'm not really sure how to take that. :neutral: Um .. haha?


Just bangin on ya Tony, haha :P

[TheReefGeek]

This is murder on a RO membrane

This is why I use a timer, my RODI kicks on once a day only.

[Delphinus]

I see. I guess that's not too bad, although I still think I like my idea of using the reservoir better. :p There's no deviation in the salinity (although I agree that the deviation in your scenario is likely negligible). Certainly if you don't have the space for a reservoir, that is a workable solution, although seems to me it involves more components and is just a "tad" more complex.

[mark]

Was going to be gone for a few days so wanted something quick so rather than playing around with solenoids, relays etc without a period of testing just got a humidifier float and hooked directly to rodi.

Understand the reasoning for a small volume reservoir if float fails open and still might go that route but this is working prefect for now.
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h316/das75/float.jpg