Trying Polyp Lab's "System Reef-resh" this weekend.

[dirtyreefer]

Bought it today from JL's. Has anyone used this product yet?

I'll report my results in a couple weeks. Seems like a pretty promising product, very similar to ZEOvit however alot easier to dose.

[christyf5]

Cool :cool: I'm not one for daily dosing but I've been waiting to hear some reviews on this product. Keep us posted :biggrin:

[andestang]

Yes really interested in some results.:biggrin:

[Mike Olson]

I just picked up the reef-resh system from JL as well...I will post my results as well on this thread as well if thats alright. JL were sure excited about the results in their display tank in just 1 week.

[dirtyreefer]

Mike that would be great if you posted your results as well. They ended up selling me too on how it improved the overall health of their display tank.

I just picked up the reef-resh system from JL as well...I will post my results as well on this thread as well if thats alright. JL were sure excited about the results in their display tank in just 1 week.

[FragFactory]

I just got some as well, and will be trying it shortly. Maybe we can keep this thread alive and post feedback and experiences every few days.

Mike

[Mike Olson]

I will take some pics of some of my sps today (day 3) and then at day 8 and see if there is a noticeable difference. I have a mixed tank with one HUGE toadstool in it. My sps's have always grown at a steady rate so I should notice the difference....what I am hoping to see is better polyp extension.

[dirtyreefer]

Well it's day 3 for me (started dosing Friday) and I can honestly say that I am noticing an improvement in water clarity. Haven't noticed much else yet, but so far so good with this product.

[seashells]

I was in JL's early last week. They were trying Reef_resh in their display tank at the entrance. Well I was in today for some other things and was checking out the tank. The corals on display looked incredable! The polyps were bursting out. Just the growth on some of the polyps was amazing! They were starting their week 2 of dosing. If their tank continues improving I will be trying it very soon! I am very impressed with their results so far. (blah, blah, no I don't work for J&L)

Doug

[Psyire]

Sounds pretty good so far...

[seashells]

I bought some Reef-resh today. Started dosing early this afternoon. So we will see what happens. I also noticed JLs' display tank that things looked more vibrant today.

Doug

[Pan]

I bought some Reef-resh today. Started dosing early this afternoon. So we will see what happens. I also noticed JLs' display tank that things looked more vibrant today.

Doug

are you seeing what you think you should be seeing though?

[Mike Olson]

I am at day five now and am definitely seeing improvement in color and growth in all sps's and extension in LPS's. I have had two birdsnest frags for approx. 7mos....the growth last week surpassed the previous 2 weeks. My pocillipora has been in my care for 9 mos. and shows the same results as the pink birdsnest. I was a little skeptical at first, but I truly see improvent in my tank from corals I had for more than a year (cup coral) to the newest ones (blue acro). My brown corals have lightened up a bit and my orange digitata has shown more color. I also noticed that all of my zoos have noticeably longer tentacles but no color change. My orange plate coral'stentacles are noticeably longer too. No change to my open brains yet...but they look good anyway! My Kenya tree, toadstool and devils hand dont show much difference, but they thrive in my tank. I checked my water parameters before starting reef-resh and was showing approx. 5 for Nitrates...I checked today and no trace.....coincidence? I dont know.

[StirCrazy]

I would be suspect of anything that makes you think you see a difference after only 1 week, I think like stated befor, it is seeing a little of what you want to see.

best way to go about it would be to take a pic at day 1 and remember the settings, then after 1 month of feeding take a aditional pic with the same settings and don't adjust anything in photoshop with either pic (except maybe the size) then stop feeding for another month and take a pic and see if they revert back.. by paying more attention on a daily basis you might be doing something else that is contrubiting to the difference if there is one.

Steve

[Chrismo]

This stuff looks very interestng to me. Bacteria are such a great way to control nutrients... A lot of people seem to be giving it a try recently too. So we should have more feedback in the next few months.

A guy I know just started using it yesterday, I cant wait to see what he thinks of it. He's a very clinical & skepticle guy, so I'm hoping he wnt be suseptable to his own head games.

Chris

[Mike Olson]

I would be suspect of anything that makes you think you see a difference after only 1 week, I think like stated befor, it is seeing a little of what you want to see.

best way to go about it would be to take a pic at day 1 and remember the settings, then after 1 month of feeding take a aditional pic with the same settings and don't adjust anything in photoshop with either pic (except maybe the size) then stop feeding for another month and take a pic and see if they revert back.. by paying more attention on a daily basis you might be doing something else that is contrubiting to the difference if there is one.

Steve

Like I said, I was skeptical to begin with...I know how my corals have progressed since day one of reefkeeping. Everyday Im looking at progress, whats new etc. just like most people who have become so addicted to the obsession! To think I would put rose colored glasses on for one product over the many that I have crossed paths with is ludicrous. If I notice differences that werent present before I started using the product, I note them. These are not corals that I bought yesterday and know nothing about, I take note of the ones that I have had for awhile.
To try it for a month and then stop to see if they revert is not the way to see how well a product works because it has no scientific basis since you are not restarting with the same parameters of the subject. I think the weeks worth of results is significant since we all know how good or bad they can go in alot less time!
Who knows how far this product will go or when the results will plateau, all I know is that the majority of my corals are showing more than they did last week...I hope it continues.

[StirCrazy]

. I think the weeks worth of results is significant since we all know how good or bad they can go in alot less time!


Corals only go bad in less time, the good take a lot more, anyways not trying to say you are using the rose colored glasses, but from experence with new food fads/products, and being the most skeptical one out there, that a couple times it looked to me that stuff was making a difference but when I photographed, ect, ect, the growth rates were te same in the month couple months I fed as they were in the couple months after that I didn't feed, color and polyp extension was bigger, or so I though, but two months after I stopped feeding it was still the same.
I did notice a difference in the worms, bugs, mushrooms ect but as far as the SPS went ... no difference with 3 different products.

Steve

[seashells]

I would be suspect of anything that makes you think you see a difference after only 1 week, I think like stated befor, it is seeing a little of what you want to see.
Steve

The appearence of new polyps at the base of the coral would not show up with rose colored glasses. The extension of the polyps would indicate something has changed. As for a change in color that could be subjective.

doug

[StirCrazy]

The appearence of new polyps at the base of the coral would not show up with rose colored glasses. The extension of the polyps would indicate something has changed. As for a change in color that could be subjective.

doug

New polyps at the base is simply growth,

Polyp extension, well seeing as we don't know what causes polyp extension that doesn't mean anything.. I get better extension during the day some people at night, some who feed, some who don't, see my point?

Color well who knows but I have found Alk levels make a huge difference in color where some haven't.. also lighting is a factor.

the problem is as in growth, a frag can sit there and do nothing for months then boom it starts growing when nothing has changed.. I personally believe that this is kinda of a recovery period from being fraged and a base laying period. so I'm my belief most frags don't start good growth until they have a solid foundation, how much of a base they need who knows but at some point I have found the base stops growing and the tips take off.

and like I said I have seen only guesses at to who the polyps extend. I have never had a problem with extension so I have never worried about it. It may be a good thing but then it may be bad, with my open brain I find it swells up when its hungry and shrinks when it is satisfied which seams to be opposite of what other think. all I know is when my LPS are swollen I feed them then they shrink down for a week then start swelling up again and so on.

Like I said this is my opinions and because there hasn't really been any research with SPS on these issues or if there is it isn't finished the questions cannot be answered and everyone will have there own opinion..
and as I stated before when I started feeding I thought there were drastic changes in growth and color, found out the color was because of an increase in my Alk and the growth was a combination of me just not noticing it before as I wasn't looking for an effect of feeding up to that point and corals just deciding to grow. heck I had one that worked on the base for almost 1 year with almost no top growth then boom it was growing 1cm a week from the tips.. nothing changed in 6 months prior to the explosion.

so we can argue this back and forth all year and no one will win as there is no proof or even studies that will affirm one way or another. :wink:


Steve

PS: I am not trying to discourage anyone from using it I started last week as I got a free sample in the mail, so who knows maybe this will turn out to be different that other foods and maybe not. Also one thing I just thought of is that if your lighting is a little on the low side for your corals maybe feeding will help a lot, but who knows.

[Polyp Lab]

Stircrazy,

I think you have your products mixed up....

This thread is about Reef-resh. A bacterial export system. We never gave out samples of Reef-resh.

I think you are talking about Reef-roids which is our coral food for filter feeders.

=)

[Mike Olson]

Week 1

The first week has passed and I have been impressed with some of the differences I have seen in my tank. I know that the information and data herein is subjective. I have paid more attention to corals that have been in my care for an extended period of time since I have more knowedge on their growth rate and polyp extension prior to Reef-Resh. My feeding schedule has been the same all along. My lighting consists of 2-250W 14K venture bulbs that are 2 1/2 months old and 1-400W venture 10K bulb that is 1 1/2 months old. Flow rates have not changed. The specs for the rest of the equipment are on my signature. There have been no corals/livestock added since starting Reef-Resh.

Feeding:
9:30 AM 1 cube mysis and a pinch of Formula flake
3:00 PM 1- 3 inch strip of nori
8:30 PM 1 cube of mysis (1cube of brine every second day instead
of mysis) and a pinch of Formula flake
1 teaspoon of reef roids in the evening on Mon. and Fri.
DT's phytoplankton every 3 nights.

Corals

Frogspawn, Hammer, Torch - very healthy and hard to tell if any changes have occurred.

Orange Plate- tentacle extension has increased noticeably. They were approx.1/2 inch and now are 3/4-1inch.

2 Open brains- tentacles come out more often in the daytime-not longer

Numerous zoos- definite tentacle extension difference-almost double! No color change

Galaxy- polyp extension is a little more, looks great but no noticeable changes

14"Dia. Toadstool, Colt, Devils Hand. Kenya tree- All doing great- same as before.

4 various Montipora- All show definite improvement...growth has gone from 1/8 inch per week to 1/4 inch this week. Polyps are more defined and the polyps underneath are actually coming out now. Color appears deeper

Pink Birdsnest- Growth has gone from 1/4 inch to 3/8-1/2 this week. Polyps stay out longer and are longer. Pink tips more defined

Pocillipora- growth is roughly the same but polyps are longer and out All week. Appears to have 'lightened' up from darker beige to lighter.

Christmas tree rock- polyps are definitely larger and are growing on to adjacent rocks- cant tell if there is more growth....I didnt realize it was spreading! Ha Ha! The feathers look more defined, that could be due to water quality.

Big Cup coral- Polyps are larger and are out more often. Growth 'seems' to be more, but not sure. Noted that polyps were coming out underneath as well....it has never done that in the year and some that have had it.

Orange Digitata- Growth this week has been equal to the previous two. polyps havent changed ( its in a high flow area) Orange coloration is more defined.

Blue acropora and blue green acro- growth is good 1/4 inch last week. Coloration is awesome...these corals are reatively new so I cannot compare too much.

I have more corals, but these are the ones I am using for comparison. The leathers are harder to note changes. My tank has typically taken along time for sps to grow- maybe since I do have a mixed tank and no reactor, I dont know. That is why I am excited to see the results for the sps's...hopefully the trend continues! The Lps are also hard for me to note skeletal growth differences, it will be easier over a more prolongued period.
I have noticed better water quality though...the only evidence I have is the drop in Nitrates from 5 to 0 though. My water looks clearer and fish, corals, inverts look more defined. I might be looking into it too much, but I have had others tell me that the clarity is better (without me telling them of Reef-Resh) I do notice I have to empty the skimmer cup a day earlier now...anyone out there notice the same?
Overall....Very happy of the first week! Next report will be Week 2
Thanks

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

Thanks Mike. Very comprehensive. Looking forward to future reports.

Anthony

[Tangman]

Any before and after pics?

[Ruth]

Well they say the lord hates a coward so I might as well weigh in on this one. If I am not mistaken the general idea of this system is to create an environment that is nutrient poor, ie: nitrate and phosphate at zero, through the use of various strains of bacteria. I would also guess that other factors are required in order to see a real benefit from this such as heavy and efficient skimming, appropriate lighting, frequent water changes, and adequate water flow.
I don't think that it is unrealistic to see marked improvement within the first week of using this system just for the fact that presumably you have been successful in reducing the amount of nitrate and phosphate in your water - thus the corals are smiling. I would be a bit nervous of too rapid a change in your system that has the potential of shocking your inhabitants and as has been said it is usually bad things that happen quickly. I would keep a close eye on your corals to make sure that they don't go too quickly even if the direction you think they are heading in is a good one. I know that when I used Pohl's coral vitalizer there was a marked improvement of polyp extension within the first couple of days and I kept dosing at the same levels and pretty soon I started to see tissue sloughing off around the base that allowed a bacteria or some other algea to attach the base of the coral and eventually kill them. Like most things in a reef aquarium good things happen slowly.
I am not using this system but will follow this thread closely as I am curious to see how it progresses. I have tried the zeovit system but have had to stop using it as I was just unable to maintain it properly without a proper zeo reactor that for some reason (supplier!!!!) I was unable to aquire. Without all the pieces of the puzzle in place systems like zeovit and presumably Reef-fresh simply do not work, IMO.
Pictures would be a wonderful tool to track the progress of your system and also for the rest of us that are interested to observe.
Just my opinion and 2 pennies worth.

[Tangman]

Good point Ruth, like Steve also said , It would be nice to see some before and after progress pictures
Also I am very interested on how much it is going to cost on a month to month basis. I talked to Jeff at J&L and they are trying to determine this as well

[StirCrazy]

Stircrazy,

I think you have your products mixed up....

This thread is about Reef-resh. A bacterial export system. We never gave out samples of Reef-resh.

I think you are talking about Reef-roids which is our coral food for filter feeders.

=)

Oh don't I just feel like an idiot!!!! you guys need to stop releaseing stuff so fast:mrgreen: you got a link to the info on this stuff?

Steve

[vanreefer]

I'm going to give this a try as well I will try to take some pictures every week to document changes... There are a few questions That I would have... Maybe polyp lab could answer them for me... Does this new strain of bacteria we are adding replace or compete for nutrients with the de-nitrifying bacteria that is normally present in our reefs... ie if I run out or decide to stop using this product wiil my tank re-cycle as the normal flora returns?... are there any negative effects to missing a day or two? will the bacteria die off too rapidly (without the food) and release the nitrates and phosphates ,back into the water collumn, that they had comsumed? I don't think this would be to big an issue with the size of skimmer I am running (G4X on ~100gals) but good to know.

Mike: are you seeing the development of bacterial mats like they advertise?

Polyp lab: Is the food (reef fuel) simply a source of organic carbon... and would this fuel the growth of the pre-existing bacterial strains present in our reefs?
without the addition of your bacterial strain?
Thanks for your answers,
I am looking forward to giving this product a try

Regards,
Dan

[dirtyreefer]

Well it's been a week of using this stuff and I can't really significantly report any major difference up till now. I did notice that the water clarity was good, and I can also report a bit more skimmate than before.

As for SPS changes, I can't really say. I am not going up to the tank every night and checking to see whether there are any difference because I honestly wouldn't know whether a branch is growing more than before or not.

The best way is definitely to take some before and after pics which I may do this weekend. These will be the before shots and I'll post them here.

I think the normal waiting period is about 4-6 weeks before you can really notice any dramatic improvements so I'm not gonna get too excited at this point.

[Polyp Lab]

Mike Olson: I’m glad the product is working out for you.

Tangman: The winner of our photo contest has placed some photos of his progress on several forums. I am not sure if I am allowed to post links to these forums on Canreef so I’ll let you do some searching =)
There is some information on cost on our faq page at www.polyplab.com/faq/html
The cost for a 100 gallon aquarium is around 17-18 dollars a month.

StirCrazy: No problem about the confusion =) I must admit, the names we chose are a little confusing. You can read more about this product at www.polyplab.com/reefresh.html


Ruth: System Reef-resh is a much more gradual (and consequently safer) nutrient export system than other European bacterial systems. We use more efficient strains and a much safer carbon source. Bleaching is not a problem that you will encounter with this product.

VanReefer: I’ll try to answer your question with a quick summary of some of the mechanisms at work here..

There are several bacterial species in the RF-Genesis product. Some species are designed to stay in a planktonic (free-floating) state in the aquarium while other species are designed to firm micro-colonies with existing and novel strains. These micro-colonies are also known as biofilms.

Biofilms typically contain many layers of bacterial cells to form microcolonies. These colonies have fairly complex cell to cell communication between the cells and act as a “team”. The bottom layers of these biofilms attach to a surface and provide some kind of structure for the upper layers. The upper layers are the nutrient exporting elements. They trap nutrients to feed the cells that it is made of. As the top layers of the biofilm consume nitrates and phosphates, it repeatedly grows and sheds.

The layers of the biofilm that have been shed are either eaten by your corals (sound tasty huh?) or are skimmed out by your skimmer. That is why people are noticing more skimmate - you are skimming out bacterial slough.

There is no real problem with missing a day or two of dosing, but the system is most effective when dosed as instructed. With an extended period of non-dosing, the biofilms will find other food sources to survive, but over time will be unable to sustain the structure of the biofilm and will slough off entirely. If you are running a skimmer, they will not break back down before they are skimmed out.

However, if you are running a skimmer-less setup and you stop dosing the product for an extended period of time (several weeks), then you do run the risk of the biofilm layers breaking back down. This is why we do no recommend running System RF in a skimmerless setup. Will you get a second cycle? Unlikely… At this stage your aquarium will likely be mature enough to handle a temporary increase in excess nutrients.

Correct. RF-Fuel is a source of organic carbon and several amino acids that are soluble in the carbon source. The fuel source encourages some strains to multiply that we want to grow, while not effecting other strains that we do not want. It does minimally fuel the growth of some of your existing bacterial stains.

Some European methods use vodka as a carbon source. Vodka is a terribly stupid thing to use as a carbon source in aquariums since it encourages the wrong types of bacteria to grow (Mostly autotrophic as opposed to heterotrophic). It also rapidly results in monocultures of that species and over time you end up with aquariums filled with bacteria that do not provide any real nutrient export.

In a market saturated with hundreds of garbage "reef products", skepticism towards any new product is wise. So regardless of how this product sounds on paper, the experiences of other hobbyists will be the best reviews.

We have put in a LOT of time into developing this product, so to hear positive experiences with the product is very rewarding. Thanks!

[Mike Olson]

Any before and after pics?
I have a few before and after pics. Not very good though....my camera will not go into manual focus. I will try to post though...I am hoping to borrow my friends new 8mg digital SLR this comng week.
I am constantly checking my sps for growth since they have never grown that fast in my tank. Thats probably why I have noticed the most changes/occurrences on them.....my Softies have always grown like mad.

[Reefer Rob]

If the Reefresh system is about nutrient export shouldn’t you be posting before and after nitrate readings (or is that too personal) :-) So far only Mike has post his readings. Polyp Lab's website doesn’t specifically say that the product will reduce nitrates or to what level.

[Psyire]

So I started the Reef-Resh system today, how are you guys making out?

[StirCrazy]

I guess this is kind of a question for polyp labs, sorry for the mini hijack.

after reading the info you have on the reef-resh I am left confused and maybe you could give me something else to chew on to help me figure this out.

I was looking at the benifits, quoted next

"• Greatly enhanced colouration of corals
• Increased growth rates of corals
• Marked improvement in water quality
• Decreased nuisance algae outbreaks
• Improved fish health
• Decreased parasite outbreaks"

and then read the info on each part, well the blurbs on what it is and does.

then I read your guide lines for use

"It is very important to follow these guidelines in order to achieve the desired results. Each of these points are equally important to the success of System RF.

● Dose the components of System RF as outlined in these instructions (http://www.polyplab.com/instructions.html).
● 10% bi-weekly or 25% monthly water changes. These water changes are required. Larger or more frequent water changes are unnecessary.
● Run a 1/4 cup of high quality carbon 24/7 for every 50G in a high flow area. Replace monthly.
● Use only RO/DI water in the aquarium.
● Feed your fish and corals high quality foods that will not rapidly break down.
● Do not overfeed fish and corals.
● Strong skimming that is appropriately rated for your tank size and bioload.
● Appropriately strong lighting for the type of corals you keep in your aquarium.
● Adjust and maintain water parameters to:
SG:
1.023 - 1.024 kg/m3
Temp:
79 - 81˚F
pH:
7.9 - 8.3
Ca:
420 - 450 ppm
Mg
1300 - 1400 ppm
dKH:
8 - 10
"

well after thinking about this by just following your guide lines alone you will get all the benifits you listed above with out using the reef-resh system as you guide lines are the optimal conditions for a reef tank (well except I personaly think the SG is a tad low and the Ca is a little high but still acceptable and I believe you have a typo on your units for SG should be Kg/l3 as a m3 of fresh water is about 1000Kg not 1 )

so I guess what I am asking is how does the reef-resh system enhance a already perfectly balanced and set up tank?

Steve

[Quagmire]

so I guess what I am asking is how does the reef-resh system enhance a already perfectly balanced and set up tank?

Steve

Well put :biggrin: I thought the same when I read the instructions.But didn't know how to ask the question, without sounding like I was calling them out.

[Scuba Steve]

.

[Scuba Steve]

...

[Psyire]

The whole idea of Reef-Resh is to create a low nutrient environment that your SPS and other corals can survive in. Keeping your other parameters in check just makes sense.

If you maintain these:

SG:
1.023 - 1.024 kg/m3
Temp:
79 - 81˚F
pH:
7.9 - 8.3
Ca:
420 - 450 ppm
Mg
1300 - 1400 ppm
dKH:
8 - 10

It dosen't automatically guarantee success. There are quite a few more peices to the puzzle.

[Quagmire]

The whole idea of Reef-Resh is to create a low nutrient environment that your SPS and other corals can survive in. Keeping your other parameters in check just makes sense.

If you maintain these:

SG:
1.023 - 1.024 kg/m3
Temp:
79 - 81˚F
pH:
7.9 - 8.3
Ca:
420 - 450 ppm
Mg
1300 - 1400 ppm
dKH:
8 - 10

It dosen't automatically guarantee success. There are quite a few more peices to the puzzle.


True but when you add:

● 10% bi-weekly or 25% monthly water changes. These water changes are required. Larger or more frequent water changes are unnecessary.
● Run a 1/4 cup of high quality carbon 24/7 for every 50G in a high flow area. Replace monthly.
● Use only RO/DI water in the aquarium.
● Feed your fish and corals high quality foods that will not rapidly break down.
● Do not overfeed fish and corals.
● Strong skimming that is appropriately rated for your tank size and bioload.
● Appropriately strong lighting for the type of corals you keep in your aquarium.

You have alot of the peices.Im not saying it doesn't work.But it would be interesting to see results from tanks useing Reef-resh,and tanks without.With
parameters and maintenence the same on all tanks.

[Jaws]

I think it could have a little to do with the undetectable amount of nutrients in our tanks that can't be measured by a $20 test kit. When I first read their requirements I thought exactly the same. However, I think that this product, if it works, might just take an already optimal tank condition to a new, slightly higher level ensuring a slightly higher level of growth and overall health. Sounds like it could be a good product if you don't mind paying a bit extra to get a bit extra. That's how I've interpreted it anyways.

My question is, theoretically, if you didn't have optimal tank conditions, and still had some nutrients in your tank that was causing algae growth, should it not still export the excess nutrients and help starve the nuisance algae?

[Polyp Lab]

"How does the Reef-resh system enhance an already perfectly balanced and set up tank?"

It is simple. System RF works by the removal of unwanted nutrients and the input of proper additives that will benefit corals.

The following are indisputable FACTS and not "claims" of our product:
- You are introducing novel bacterial strains that induce the formation of biofilms with some of the pre-existing bacteria
- These biofilms want to grow and need to consume nutrients to do it. This is the nature of bacterial micro-colonies. It is the way that bacteria spreads on your kitchen counter. It is the way that bacterial infections spread in your body. They need to eat.
- Biofilms trap nutrients in their upper layers to grow. This is how they feed. In particular, some of the strains we have selected have a preference to consume organic phosphates and nitrates.
- As these particular biofilms grow they will "shed" off some of the layers. Not all biofilms shed (especially ones in the human body), but with certain bacterial combinations in their make-up, they do.
- The sloughed off layers are either skimmed out or fish/corals will eat them.
- Having an extra entity in your aquarium that consumes these nutrients is guaranteed to lower your nutrient levels. It would not be possibly for these biofilms to sustain themselves if they did not consume nutrients.

If you are further interested, there are thousands of microbiology references that will tell you the exact mechanisms of marine biofilms. Two of our employees have post-grad degrees in microbiology, so if anyone has extremely technical questions I can direct them to Tyler or Ji Hyun.

Lastly, the addition of RF-Plus and RF-Acids is what you use to provide amino acids, vitamins and nitrate/phosphate-free coral nutrition. RF-Plus took over 6 months to develop properly. These products are highly concentrated and incredibly important to the coloration of SPS corals. If you doubt the importance of these components, a quick search on google will bring you a decent amount of starter reading material.

It is unfortunate that so many "snake-oil" products have been release in this industry. It has made many hobbyists very skeptical of any aquarium product - especially unconventional products like System Reefresh. I am a hobbyist myself, so I know exactly where you come from. When I first got into the hobby in 1996, I was conned by my LFS into wasting hundreds of dollars on useless products. At Polyp Lab, we are trying to develop a reputable name for ourselves. Releasing a snake oil product into an already infested market would not be a wise way to go about it.

We have received very good feedback on our System RF product line and I personally love reading the comments and answering questions you guys have sent over emails. We have some very intelligent reefers with open and inquiring minds in Canada. You guys are truely amaze me.

Something that I should note that has been called to my attention, the label on the RF-Fuel package is not as clear as we would like it to be. Just to clarify, RF-Fuel should be dosed every day in the amounts listed.

A more thorough explanation of the dosing regime is available on our website at www.polyplab.com/instructions.html


And lastly, to answer Stircrazy's other question:
There are a large number of hobbyists in North America who do all of the things we suggest (such as water changes, running carbon etc) who still do not have the coral health/colouration/appearance that they are looking for. I'm sure there are a handful of people who use this forum who could attest to this. Our product does not guarantee a flourescent rainbow garden in your aquarium, but it most certainly helps it along the way!

Oh and thank you for the correction on the salinity units =)

[Polyp Lab]

Jaws you are right.

Phosphate levels in an aquarium can not be detected properly with salifert, hagen, aquarium pharmaceuticals etc. kits.

Although fairly expensive to use (and not completely necessary), the only way to get proper phosphate reading is by the use of either

Hanna Colorimeters
Merck Phosphate Kit

I believe the Merck phosphate kit has been rebranded by some aquarium company so it may be more readily available in that version. (I'm not sure of which company rebranded it, we use the original Merck versions at the lab).

[Ruth]

I use a Hanna colorimeter to test phosphates in my tanks and can attest to the inaccuracy or I guess inablility of the Salifert and other readily available test kits to test for PO4. I was shocked when I first got the Hanna to realize how much PO4 was actually in my systems that didn't show up on the Salifert.

[StirCrazy]

Jaws you are right.

Phosphate levels in an aquarium can not be detected properly with salifert, hagen, aquarium pharmaceuticals etc. kits.



yup something we have been saying for about a year now and we still waist the money on them hehe.

anyways thanks for the reply and I guess the other question I would be interested in seeing either tried out or maybe it already has been, but Jaws asked it at the end of the post you replied to.

"My question is, theoretically, if you didn't have optimal tank conditions, and still had some nutrients in your tank that was causing algae growth, should it not still export the excess nutrients and help starve the nuisance algae?"

I guess it is what happens if you don't follow the requirements religiously, Like for my self when I am posted to ship I sail for up to 4 months at a time, now I can have some one do basic stuff a couple times a week but water changes and daily dosing are out, heck I don't even feed my fish daily, I go every second day so a daily anything is going to be a pain. Am I just not destined to use any produce like this or are they a little forgiving?

Steve

[dirtyreefer]

Polyp Labs: I accidently left out the Genesis bottle for the afternoon, will this be a problem as it says to keep refrigerated after opening?

[albert_dao]

Hey Dave, a few questions of my own:

1. Would the use of a UV sterilizer or Ozone have deleterious effects on the RF system?

2. Does RF require substantial amounts of surface area to operate? IE. Does it require live rock or another substrate (bioballs) to produce significant results thus far demonstrated?

3. How does RF interact with refugiums and algae turf scrubbers?

:D

Edit: Nevermind on the first question, I just found the FAQ.

[seashells]

Jaws you are right.



I believe the Merck phosphate kit has been rebranded by some aquarium company so it may be more readily available in that version. (I'm not sure of which company rebranded it, we use the original Merck versions at the lab).

Deltec USA sells the high end phosphate kits. Some where in the neighborhood of a $100 in Vancouver.

Doug

[sumpfinfishe]

OK well all I see here is text, somebody has to have some before and after pictures by now :mrgreen:

[seashells]

Very nice tank Rich!

Doug

[muck]

Im with Rich... lets see those before and after shots. :mrgreen:

[Mike Olson]

I definitely need to spend money on a new camera! Gotta slow down on the tank though! I will do up a 2 week report here in the next few days. I am still impressed with the product...nitrates are still undetectable and growth has maintained the same levels. The bacterial mats are thriving in the refuge and noticed some on the rock. Not that pretty though! They are not noticeable in the tank at least! At first I wondered what these slimey mats were. My skimmer cup is filling up every 3 days compared to five!

[Polyp Lab]

Dirty Reefer: Leaving the product out at room temp is fine once in a while. Don't worry about it =)

Albert: It definitely needs surface area to work. Most tanks will have more than enough surface area for the system to work effectively. As for the effects on refugiums and turf scrubbers, you will likely have much slower macro growth.

Rich & Muck: A few before/after photos exist on some forums but I don't want to break canreef forum rules posting links..

[Tangman]

I have bought the system and starting it today. I will post pics. of two test subjects ( purple acro and a purple milli ) and tank prams. weekly starting next week ,every Sunday, As Sunday is my normal tank maintenance day


Thank you Polyp Lab for staying in touch with this thread, your input is very much appreciated

[cprowler]

.

[Ruth]

Tangman why don't you take some pictures of your tank today and then it will be a good guage of where it started from and how things changed? Just a thought.:mrgreen:

[Tangman]

Tangman why don't you take some pictures of your tank today and then it will be a good gauge of where it started from and how things changed? Just a thought.:mrgreen:
Maybe I wasn't clear enough ( English wasn't my best subject in school and school was a long time ago) but that is what I am doing..Ha,ha

[SuperFudge]

I apologize for my skeptisism,

But are you not still relying on the existing filtration and maintanece to remove nutrients regardless of form?

It really doesnt matter what the cells, bacteria or micro-whatever are doing when they just bind up nutrients for a time then "shed" them, you still end up with the same mechanical means of removal as before...problem is you just added more stuff to the tank, of course your skimmer is working better.

Polp extention in Jl`s tank is largly due to the wavebox, i can attest to the improvements they contribute in polyp extention, i would guess they would tell you the same.

Since bacteria store phosphates, it makes no sence to me why one would want to add more to a system, regardless of better strains.

This goes against the theory of nutrient poor systems such as BB`s, where the idea is to REMOVE the bacteria from the system, not give them some more food.

[SuperFudge]

A good analogy would be the refugium itself, while the algea are awesome at nutrient uptake, where does it end up ?

It ends up with you manually harvesting the algea from the tank, or the algea dies and it is re-released.

[Polyp Lab]

Fudge:

Yes you relying on the skimmer to remove waste.

The bacterial strains in our product, feed on nutrients in your water column that are not removable by a skimmer. For example, if you poured a cup of fertilizer into your aquarium, you'd have a serious nutrient problem. And having a skimmer wouldn't help one bit.

With system Reef-resh. you are introducing bacteria that consumes nutrients. These bacteria are readily remove by a skimmer.

These aren't "better" strains. The strains in the product form biofilms. This isn't a buzzword. Biofilms are very efficient at nutrient removal and are used in thousands of real-world applications. Furthermore, they do not "shed" the nutrients. They shed the cells themselves that have used these nutrients to grow.


And while a wavebox certainly helps polyp extension, give J&L a call and ask them if they noticed a difference in polyp extension when they started using this product. (There's a reason why they wanted to carry our product)


BTW: Nutrient poor systems are not designed to remove bacteria. They are designed to remove nutrients. This is what our product does.


I feel like I have repeated myself 10X in this thread.......

[cprowler]

.

[SuperFudge]

For example, if you poured a cup of fertilizer into your aquarium, you'd have a serious nutrient problem. And having a skimmer wouldn't help one bit.

Id expect some special bacteria wouldnt adress the problem either, but ill consider it next time i put fertilizer in my tank.

BTW: Nutrient poor systems are not designed to remove bacteria. They are designed to remove nutrients. This is what our product does.

Yes, they are. Biomass=life=nutrients. If you remove the life, you also remove what that life produces.
Bacteria leak....most detritus is produced by BACTERIA.
Im afraid you are adressing only a portion of a much larger process.

Heres one of many,

"The skimmer will export what's available and in a form that the skimmer can export. What is not in that form, will sit in solution, be grabbed and re-cycled by bacteria/phyto/etc again - eventually it has to go back through a form that the skimmer can export."

Lets call this fella a DR. in marine biology, and pathobiology.
He doesnt have anything to sell unfortunatly.

I feel like I have repeated myself 10X in this thread.......

Please dont feel you need to for me.

[Polyp Lab]

The factual information in your quote from Bomber is correct. (That sounds like something that he would say but I could be wrong)

But while excess nutrients are "sitting in solution" they are also being grabbed by organisms that you do not want growing (like nuisance algae).

I completely understand the skepticism. It is very difficult to look at a product like this and give it the benefit of the doubt.

[Psyire]

All I know is that I've used this product for only 4 days and I've noticed better polyp extension on all my SPS. I even had one SPS that wouldn't extend at all, and now it is. It's gotta be doing something....

[Psyire]

Hopefully it's not a Bomber quote... from what I've read the only DR. he has is in BS, and not the science kind either. (although I agree with some of what he's said, he's lied too much to make anything credible)

[estey]

I have been following this thread for awhile. Dave, I think Fudge is just skeptical of using it as alot of us spent huge amounts of money into out tanks. The idea of introducting something new to our tanks is not often very comforting as there are many products out there that are useless. These guys are just asking tonnes of questions, as they should, to decide whether or not they'd like to give it a try or not.

I have been fortunate enough to know Dave since he launched Polyp Lab and have tested his products on my own tanks well before they were released. With the system Reef-Resh, I saw my phosphate levels drop to undetectable levels and my SPS color up to be even brighter than I had ever imagined possible in a span of about 4 months. I stand behind this system that Polyp Lab has developed, it works wonders. I do not have any sort of scientific background so cannot explain how it works in any details but have seen the results first hand.

The guys at Polyp Lab have put countless hours of time and money into developing these products, I have been fortunate enough to have seen the lab first hand and have met the people who he has working there.

Cheers,

Derek

[Ruth]

I don't think that anyone is bashing Polyp Labs at all. Sure there are lots of questions and some skepticizm about using a new product and as you say rightly so. Hell follow some of the early threads on RC about Zeovit if you want to see some big time skepticizm and outright bashing.
I think that Fudge has more than proved his ability as an outstanding reef keeper and has asked some very ligitimate questions. I think that it is the way that he was answered that has a few hackles raised - again rightly so. If you read the thread you can see that there are quite a few people that have taken the plunge and are using this product and I know that talking with the folks at J&L they are very excited about it and believe in the product. I have not tried it yet so cannot comment on the actual product one way or another but may try it in the future. For now I am waiting on a new reactor to continue to use the zeovit system as I have way too many of their products to give up now.
I think that Fudge and others have every right to ask questions about this system and I believe that Polyp Labs, if they believe in their product, which I am sure they do, have a responsibility to answer his and other questions, respectfully and politely and if this means answering it over and over maybe use the quote function to show that you have already answered that specific inquiry.
Let's not let this turn into a flame war but rather continue on in a respectful manner so that all of us can learn and decide for ourselves if we want to try this product on our reefs.
Wheew:mrgreen:

[SuperFudge]

pysire,

You must have heard that from an advocate of DSB`s...
Yes it is Bomber, He has no need to lie, he gains nothing other than your understanding.

I am a skeptic, because for 15 years ive watched these products come and go, i am willing to bet 98% of them are all but useless.

Please understand polyp lab, im not trying to bash your product. I am sure you have put much time,effort and money into it.

But it bothers me to say "here add this source of carbon, vitamins and some amino acids....." to your tanks and it will be Nutrient Poor.

It seems backwards to me, the bacteria your feeding..do not need to be there in the first place.
If your adding something...your adding something.

Tell me, if you do not feed these bacteria a source of carbon, what happens ?

[SuperFudge]

Let's not let this turn into a flame war but rather continue on in a respectful manner so that all of us can learn and decide for ourselves if we want to try this product on our reefs.
Wheew:mrgreen:

Amen! :)

[Polyp Lab]

Sorry Fudge/Cprowler/Ruth...

My snide remark earlier was uncalled for. And I would like to apologize to this forum for coming across abrasively.


And now..back to the regular program... =)

"If you don't add an appropriate carbon source, What happens ?"

The bacteria will stay in a planktonic state and can't form biofilms.
Bacteria use cell to cell communications to control gene expression amongst the cells. (This mechanisms is called quorom sensing). Some bacterial species use this to initiate biofilm formation.

At a high enough population density, these signals are able to instruct the cells to form biofilms. At lower densities, these signals are ineffective.

- If you don't add an appropriate carbon source. You can not reach the required population density.

- If you use an appropriate carbon source but without the addition of the right bacterial strains. Your bacterial flora will be in a ratio which will not permit the development of biofilms.

- If you use a different kind of carbon source like vodka or vinegar, you end up with a bloom of autotrophic bacteria. (Which are essentially useless for nutrient export)

[StirCrazy]

I feel like I have repeated myself 10X in this thread.......

for some you have, but 1 question has been asked 2 or 3 times and you have just ignored it, could you please answer it and if you don't know just say that or take a guess. this is a question that would impact a lot of your users as not many have conditions which you require for the use of your product.

Psyire, what were all your water peramiters befor you though of starting to use this and what are they now that you are?

estey, what are you using to measure your Phosphates?

Steve

[Polyp Lab]

Hey Stir Crazy, I just flipped back through the thread and found your question. I really was not ignoring it. Sorry about that.

"My question is, theoretically, if you didn't have optimal tank conditions, and still had some nutrients in your tank that was causing algae growth, should it not still export the excess nutrients and help starve the nuisance algae?"

Most definitely. The product will still act as an effective nutrient export mechanism if you never did any water changes whatsoever.

We list those optimal tank conditions for hobbyists to obtain the best environment in their aquariums.

[estey]

estey, what are you using to measure your Phosphates?

Steve

Hey Steve,

I am using the Deltec phosphate test kit. My phosphate levels before using system Reefresh were 0.15 ppm before and sit at about 0.03 now constantly.

Derek

[Acro]

Derek, Sounds as though you've been running this system the longest. Care to share some tank pics? You know what they say... The proof is in the pudding. and I've always thought pictures are the pudding in this hobby. So lets see the pudding. :)

[estey]

Derek, Sounds as though you've been running this system the longest. Care to share some tank pics? You know what they say... The proof is in the pudding. and I've always thought pictures are the pudding in this hobby. So lets see the pudding. :)

Hey Jamie,

The first tank was a 120 Gallon that was used as the display tank for Frag Factory, which went when I sold the business, so it is no longer going. It was mainly softie and LPS dominated with some SPS, which colored up nicely over the course of a few months.

Attached is a picture of a nano as it looks tonight that I am experimenting with the Reefresh system. It has a very heavy load in it, with 3 shrimp, 2 seahorses and 2 red banded pipefish that are eating mysis.

The tank has about 20 different colors of zoos, 30 different ricordia colors, a 3"+ Superman danae, 5 or 6 echinos and numerous acans including a maxima - All in a 12 gallon JBJ with 96 watts of PC lighting.

I am running no filtration on the tank other than live rock and carbon. I am dosing the Reefresh system daily and have not done a water change on the tank in over 6 weeks. My nitrates are at 0 and phosphates at 0.03. I clean the glass maybe once every 2 weeks when there is a very light film.

Hope this helps. I know that is is not an SPS dominated system but it is an indication of how it keeps nutrients down in a system.

Cheers,

Derek

[estey]

Here are some pictures of a friends tank who is also experimenting with the system. Not to talk about other forums but this is Klay's tank from AP. It is a 180 Gallon.

Derek

[cprowler]

.........................

[Willow]

Here are some pictures of a friends tank who is also experimenting with the system. Not to talk about other forums but this is Klay's tank from AP. It is a 180 Gallon.

Derek

wooo large polyp dave has always had a lps inspiring tank!

[crusty1]

Just thought I'd pipe in.....read the instructions closely on the RF Fuel. I had a brainfart when I was dosing this, and was dosing 5ml per 25 gallons instead of .05ml!!! No harm to my tank, but a damn expensive mistake. Best of luck with the system. I have only just started to use it two days ago.

[Mike Olson]

for some you have, but 1 question has been asked 2 or 3 times and you have just ignored it, could you please answer it and if you don't know just say that or take a guess. this is a question that would impact a lot of your users as not many have conditions which you require for the use of your product.

Psyire, what were all your water peramiters befor you though of starting to use this and what are they now that you are?

estey, what are you using to measure your Phosphates?

Steve
I stated in my report that my Nitrates were at 5 when I started....they have ALWAYS been between 5-10....I feed the tank heavily for my numerous fish and corals (maybe too much!) I have stayed with the same regimen and am now getting 0 readings. My PO4 has always read 0....I do not own one of the True PO4 readers though...just a salifert tester

[sumpfinfishe]

Derek you showed some images of a friends tank, yes the tank does look great and bursting with color-then again most fully stocked LPS or SPS tanks usually do.

I, like Jamie and others in this thread would like to see not just the result of- but instead before and after results, and I'm not talking a year apart either as many variables come into play during that length of time. I have heard from a few people now that "oh my/there tank/corals look amazing in only a week/month of using this product line". There must be someone using these products locally by now who has images recorded of both before and during use of this product.

If someone is going to start using this product soon and doesn't have time/access to take some digital images, I would be more than happy to drop by and take some snaps of your system!

I also have a question for Poly Lab;

If a person was running a skimmer on there system that was just able to keep up with removing the nutrients out of there reef or running at 100% efficiency without them knowing so, wouldn't the results of using this product do more harm than good?

Finally by no means am I trying to bash or act negative toward this product, instead I am simply trying to understand it in every aspect.

[Chin_Lee]

Lets see pics pics pics :biggrin: In our hobby and this industry, two things talk. MONEY and PICTURES.

On the depressing part about money, I wish I could afford this product but with the water volume that I will have in the near future and with the products in its current size of bottles, it will only last me 2-3 weeks. Thats the crappy part about going big- everything just costs more!!

[Polyp Lab]

"If a person was running a skimmer on there system that was just able to keep up with removing the nutrients out of there reef or running at 100% efficiency without them knowing so, wouldn't the results of using this product do more harm than good?"


I believe your are asking:
"If your skimmer is already working at a maximum load, won't the product cause the skimmer to be over loaded?


No. Skimmer performance is based on contact time, bubble size and also the type of organic material you are trying to skim out. Bacteria cells have a very high affinity to the surface of a gas-liquid interface. So efficiency is improved when you are trying to skim out bacterial flock. You will notice that your skimmer is producing more skimmate when using this product.

[Tangman]

"

You will notice that your skimmer is producing more skimmate when using this product.


I started this system on Saturday and I have already noticed that my skimmate is thicker.
By the way, as I have already posted ,I have took pics of some test frags (from Chilliwackreefer) and recorded prams. before I started and will post updated pics. every Sunday, starting next week...

[Ruth]

Does anyone that has been using this have an update? Maybe some pictures?:mrgreen:

[marie]

I started using it last wednesday, can't really say if it makes a difference yet or not, although my yellow fiji leather appears to love it

What I have noticed, is my skimmer (a berlin xl) will no longer produce a wet skimmate and it's turned up as high as it can go. The skimmate looks kind of like baby diahrea, same consistency and same yellow brown colour and lots of it :lol:

[Chin_Lee]

OK anybody have any before and after pics out there??? Somebody must have something ...........

This tread is almost five weeks old ........

[sumpfinfishe]

Tangman wrote over two weeks ago:
I have took pics of some test frags (from Chilliwackreefer) and recorded prams. before I started and will post updated pics. every Sunday, starting next week...

So any chance on getting a look at those pics yet:question:

[Tangman]

Tangman wrote over two weeks ago:


So any chance on getting a look at those pics yet:question:
Sorry ,got very busy, wasn't able to take pics. after one week, but the results after one week were amazing, you could see the color improvement every day.
But then I ran into trouble ... my skimmer is very underpowered and I have a crushed coral substrate ,which was very dirty( a lot of organic waste) and by adding this product ,you are adding bacteria and nutrients (fuel to feed the bacteria) that bind to other nutrients that are already in your tank and then get skimmed out , creating a low nutrient environment. I was not able to do this because my skimmer is too small and my system was too nutrient rich in the first place. As a result of all this I had a very large algae bloom that I am dealing with, so I have stopped using the product until I get a new skimmer and clean up the rich nutrient situation. I didn't have a algae problem before I started, but its all about balance and when I started the product, it didn't take very long before my system, my skimmer in particular, couldn't handle it.
I will try this again once I remedy the situation

[dirtyreefer]

I've had the most growth I've ever seen since using this product, however I have experienced some bleaching on a couple of acro pieces. The number of new growth tips is astounding, and I guarantee it's due to the RF.

A question I would like to ask PolypLab is: Can I stop using the RF-Fuel? I find that this carbon source is most likely what's bleaching my SPS. I can't confirm that but would rather try and avoid this happening to other pieces. I would still continue to dose the other 3.

Any impact?

[GMGQ]

Just wanted to chime in that I've started using it yesterday!

[dirtyreefer]

A follow up to my experience with bleaching. I found out that two of my acros had Acro Eating FWs :( and not because of the carbon source of RR. I removed those two pieces and basically threw them in the garbage. None of my other acros seem to be affected. Funny though since I haven't added any new pieces or fish for a few months now.

I've had the most growth I've ever seen since using this product, however I have experienced some bleaching on a couple of acro pieces. The number of new growth tips is astounding, and I guarantee it's due to the RF.

A question I would like to ask PolypLab is: Can I stop using the RF-Fuel? I find that this carbon source is most likely what's bleaching my SPS. I can't confirm that but would rather try and avoid this happening to other pieces. I would still continue to dose the other 3.

Any impact?

[DARK]

I won the "Not so perfect tank" contest Polyp Labs had a few months ago. While I used the product for 5 weeks, I noticed a big improvement in the colours of my sps but since I ran out of The System and stop dosing, my purple monster frags and some lime green/teal stags have lost most of their colour and they appear to be dieing. Unless you plan to use The System "forever" I do not suggest using this product. I stopped using the product because it would cost me 180$ every 5 weeks on my 450g total water volume setup. I was impressed that it worked so well but now I wish I hadn't even entered the contest... sound harsh? Yes it is... but Im the one seeing what damage its caused to my system. If someone needs me to answer questions I'll glady do so.

[Supafudge]

oh oh, can i say it ?

[DARK]

Go ahead.

[vanreefer]

Does this new strain of bacteria we are adding replace or compete for nutrients with the de-nitrifying bacteria that is normally present in our reefs... ie if I run out or decide to stop using this product wiil my tank re-cycle as the normal flora returns?... are there any negative effects to missing a day or two? will the bacteria die off too rapidly (without the food) and release the nitrates and phosphates ,back into the water collumn, that they had comsumed?

That is exactly why I didn't start using this product... Hell It took five years for GF to talk me into making a lifetime commitment... :wink:

[Supafudge]

I apologize Dark, no offense to you.

Thank you for the time to tell us about your experience.

I would be better off not opening my mouth, but i just get my panties in a bunch about this type of (filtration?)stuff...Cheers, hopefully your livestock is recovering...most of all, welcome to canreef :)

I and several others (like vanreef above) had posted a few questions regarding it, IMO, they were either not answered, skirted or outright changed. If you take the time to re-read each question, youll see what i mean.

One of them was a question i asked related to the problem you are experiencing...
"Tell me, if you do not feed these bacteria a source of carbon, what happens ? "
The reply was answered with a re-phrased question....."If you don't add an appropriate carbon source, What happens ?"
The secret word there was "appropriate"....

The answer was,
"The bacteria will stay in a planktonic state and can't form biofilms.
Bacteria use cell to cell communications to control gene expression amongst the cells. (This mechanisms is called quorom sensing). Some bacterial species use this to initiate biofilm formation."

With my little layman sized brain, this means....Like in your scenario, they simply die and pollute your tank.("planktonic" seems like a cool word for it tho :p )
What i cant figure out is why would they die, if the food source is primarily nutrients in your tank ?

Whats the difference what kind of life form it takes , wether its a fish or bacteria? In any way,you feed in addition to what you were, bio load has increased and so has pollution.

I dunno, i still havent met a nutrient thats dodges my water changes.

Bah ! i got a headache.

I have followed your thread on another board, and you mentioned it helped the colors out a bit.
In your opinion, could you also say that running at thier "recommended parameters" this may have also had something to do with the improved coloration?

Thanks for your input.

[Mike Olson]

I won the "Not so perfect tank" contest Polyp Labs had a few months ago. While I used the product for 5 weeks, I noticed a big improvement in the colours of my sps but since I ran out of The System and stop dosing, my purple monster frags and some lime green/teal stags have lost most of their colour and they appear to be dieing. Unless you plan to use The System "forever" I do not suggest using this product. I stopped using the product because it would cost me 180$ every 5 weeks on my 450g total water volume setup. I was impressed that it worked so well but now I wish I hadn't even entered the contest... sound harsh? Yes it is... but Im the one seeing what damage its caused to my system. If someone needs me to answer questions I'll glady do so.
I guess your reef liked the reef resh and then reacted negatively to not getting it...kinda like feeding a dog steak for awhile, then watching him go back to dry dog food Ha Ha! It must have done some good while you were using it if your corals had that much of a decline after.
All I know is that I do a 20% water change every 1-2 months, I feed my fish and corals alot, I have ALWAYS had nitrate readings around 10-20, and ever since I have used this product they have been at ZERO. This reason alone has made it worth the money, not withstanding the sps growth ive had in my mixed reef and other benefits

[vanreefer]

I say if it is working for you and you don't mind continuing using the product... then go for it... But I would caution you in stopping using the product abruptly... you should probably wean it off slowly. I would probably ask Polyp lab again (as I did earlier) about the potential problem with stopping this product abruptly... maybe ask them to stop using it on one of their "test tanks" after 6minths to a year of use.

[Jaws]

You have to consider too that if you stop using any product, it's going to have negative effects on your reef. It's really no different than when they introduced the protein skimmer. It was just another product to improve the quality of your tank. If you decided to stop using your protein skimmer one day you would see an enormous change in your reef. I'm not siding with anyone here but I'm always open to people who want to pour their time and money into creating a product that improves the condition of my tank. I haven't used this product yet nor will I until there is a lot more case studies and it's less expensive for larger tanks but it has done what Polyp Lab said it was going to do according to most. I definitely don't like the idea of corals bleaching or dying off when you discontinue the use of it though. Personally, I think it's an interesting idea but I'm going to monitor it's progress before I decide to get on board. I know these topics can get kind of heated but hopefully no one tries to jump down my throat for my comments. I'm just trying to be neutral right now but still interested in seeing how this idea evolves.

[vanreefer]

You have to consider too that if you stop using any product, it's going to have negative effects on your reef. It's really no different than when they introduced the protein skimmer. It was just another product to improve the quality of your tank. If you decided to stop using your protein skimmer one day you would see an enormous change in your reef.

This is a good point!!

[StirCrazy]

It's really no different than when they introduced the protein skimmer. It was just another product to improve the quality of your tank. If you decided to stop using your protein skimmer one day you would see an enormous change in your reef.

Actually its a lot different, a protein skimmer is a basic filtrations system not a additive/food source. you would be more on the ball comparing it to feeding mysis instead of a skimmer, That is the biggest problem is people are thinking of this as a basic component instead of an additive which it is. now I have used several additives over the years and not one has had really amazing effects when I used it but at the same time I never noticed a difference when I stopped using it.

Steve

[GMGQ]

Well if you remove a protein skimmer, you're 'adding' Nitrates.

Either way, you're changing the water chemistry and that is what results in good/bad changes to the livestock.

Actually its a lot different, a protein skimmer is a basic filtrations system not a additive/food source. you would be more on the ball comparing it to feeding mysis instead of a skimmer, That is the biggest problem is people are thinking of this as a basic component instead of an additive which it is. now I have used several additives over the years and not one has had really amazing effects when I used it but at the same time I never noticed a difference when I stopped using it.

Steve

[Chin_Lee]

Well if you remove a protein skimmer, you're 'adding' Nitrates.

Either way, you're changing the water chemistry and that is what results in good/bad changes to the livestock.

i don't believe you are "adding" nitrates per se. Protein skimmer is a form of filtration that is able to remove certain types of particles (bio waste) before it breaks down further in your tank water column. So you are actually changing the water composition which will subsequently change the water chemistry if the waste is not removed prior to it breaking down further into ammonia, nitrite, nitrate.

I believe what Steve is trying to say (and correct me if I'm wrong Steve) is that one should not compare this product to a protein skimmer because it would be like comparing the effects of removing live rock or wet/dry filter or canister filter from your aquarium. These are methods of filtration, and are not a form of additive.

On the same token, it would seem like this product is a mix of both a form of filtration and an additive. If I understand it correctly, you are feeding your system a type of bacteria that is a more efficient in nutrient export thus creating a nutrient poor environment. While simultaneously you feed your corals with different amino acids and vitamins and other coral nutrition. So who knows???

There are many valid points from different people who are using and speculating on the effectiveness of this product. But I feel it would be fair to let more people experiment with the product further and post their observations as time goes on. Opinions do matter especially when they are from very respected and experienced members of this hobby but (and I cautiously continue to write because I do not want to offend) they are also based on past experiences and therefore they are also biased.

Like any other thing that we use in our daily lives, there will be pros and cons and I don't believe this product will be the exception to that norm. From the posts of observed growth and improved colors, it would appear to be working well for many people so there is a good likelihood that there is a benefit to using this product. We should try to learn more about the beneficial and detrimental effects of the product if we don't understand it; we may never know when a product will bring us to the next level of reefkeeping. Until that determination is made, like many other products in this industry, it may need to evolve and be refined as to how it is used and managed. (IE weaning your corals off the product as opposed to a cold turkey approach if you do decide to stop using this product.)
To sum up my keyboarding diarrhea,
1) give this product a fair chance to mature and develope.
2) learn with it and if possible, learn from it.

[StirCrazy]

(and correct me if I'm wrong Steve)

no need for correction, bang on, I also agree with the rest of the post, I was just to lazy to type that much.. you know the over worked and under paid thing:mrgreen:

Steve

[marie]

My experience with reef-resh
I started these products 8 week ago in my 175g fishless reef tank.

After the first 2 weeks I had out of control bio films, yellow brown snot everywhere polyp lab said it was probably because there were no fish to eat it.

After 6 weeks there wasn't any noticable difference with my tank. I still had a few spots of cyano, macro algae was still growing and there was no change in my coral growth or colour. Keep in mind that there are no fish in this tank. The only food was the reef-resh products and some mysis, spot fed to my open brain every 2nd or 3rd night and I was doing 20g water changes every 2 weeks. The christmas tree worms were the only things to show better growth.

After 6 weeks I stopped using the stuff and now with the exception of yellow/brown snot lingering there is no bleaching of corals or cyano exploding everywhere. A waste of money for me :redface: Oh well, no harm no foul.

Does any one want to buy a few months worth of reef-resh :lol:

[SuperFudge]

polyp lab said it was probably because there were no fish to eat it.



What was eating the yellow brown snot before you added anything ?

[marie]

What was eating the yellow brown snot before you added anything ?

The stuff is the bacteria that i was adding, it just kept building up I guess. It made for some very slimey, thick skimmate. It is slowly disappearing now thank goodness.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/mariesnell/2005_0302biofilm0001.jpg

[Denis]

I get this kind of bacteria growth when I over do it with the vinegar in kalkwasser.
It only shows up in the grow tank (no fish). I vacuum it off along with the snail poops.

[sumpfinfishe]

11 pages now and still no before and after images :rolleyes:

[marie]

I get this kind of bacteria growth when I over do it with the vinegar in kalkwasser.
It only shows up in the grow tank (no fish). I vacuum it off along with the snail poops.

Same idea, although I've been assured that the fuel isn't vinegar, it is a form of acetate

[cprowler]

.

[StirCrazy]

Growth looks normal for 7 weeks, could be better could be worse.. all depends on lighting. as for color to tell you the truth the first pic looked way better be for you started, the second pick almost no change maybe slightly better in the before.. but both corals had better polyp extension in the before pics and overall looked better to me.

Steve

[muck]

I am thinking the same as Stevo. The before pics have better color and polyp extension.
Though I will admit it is some nice growth in 7 weeks.

[cprowler]

I guess I should have qualified my previous statement. My system was only running for about 4 months before I started RR and IMO the growth has accelerated since the RR. Before that I had a 40g for about a year and had slow growth in that time. It may just be that my old system was inadequate and my new one had not settled in yet or the corals were just getting used to it. That may have been normal growth for 7 weeks I’m not sure, I don’t have anything to compare it to. As I mentioned the growth of new branches is at a rate I have not seen in my limited experience.

As I also mentioned the color has only changed in a bird’s nest and a red moti cap not the two pictured. The new color is amazing, the cap went from a dull red to a vibrant deep dark red.

I am not arguing for or against RR I am taking a wait and see approach, on my system and others. Since my system is so new I may never know. I just posted since Rich said no before and after pics in all this time.

[Samw]

I guess I should have qualified my previous statement. My system was only running for about 4 months before I started RR and IMO the growth has accelerated since the RR. Before that I had a 40g for about a year and had slow growth in that time. It may just be that my old system was inadequate and my new one had not settled in yet or the corals were just getting used to it. That may have been normal growth for 7 weeks I’m not sure, I don’t have anything to compare it to. As I mentioned the growth of new branches is at a rate I have not seen in my limited experience.




It looks like your corals were doing very well to begin with. Looks great. That's pretty good growth for the pink acro without any additives. The growth from Jan to Mar was quite substantial considering it was a new tank.


Also, the growth of your other Acros on this page was pretty amazing for just a couple of months of growth.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=740962&perpage=25&pagenumber=10


Originally posted by Cprowler
June 13/05 - 10K XM's
http://www.zld.ca/reef/nc05.jpg

Jan 18/06 - 10K XM's and T5 10K & Actinic
http://www.zld.ca/reef/mm1.jpg

March 25/06 - 10K XM's and T5 10K & Actinic & VHO Actinic
http://www.zld.ca/reef/acro01.jpg

[cprowler]

That's a good point Sam, these two probably aren’t the best to use as an example since they are my largest and fastest growers. I made my observations from all my 30+ corals and just threw these two pics up since Rich asked to see some before and after pics.


I’m starting to regret posting anything at all, now I know why no one else has. :mrgreen:

[Quagmire]

Any updates?

[StirCrazy]

Same idea, although I've been assured that the fuel isn't vinegar, it is a form of acetate

missed this befor.. but Sodium acetate (an edible natural form) is also knowen as Sodium acetate trihydrate; Acetic acid, sodium salt trihydrate.

Hmmm Acetic acid, is also know as Vinager, and sence I can't see them using any of the other acetates in tanks it must be sodium acetate.

Steve

[Snappy]

I thought I'd bring this thread back to life with my own experience with this product. I started using it in the first week of January 07. Here are some before & after shots. After having used it for 5 months I am not sure I'd want to stop.

Stylophora Dec 06

http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/medium/sylo_Oct_06.jpg

same coral May 07

http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/medium/stylo_May_07.jpg

A. Millepora early Jan 07

http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/1acro_macro_peach_prostrata.jpg

Same piece May 07

http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/pink_mille_22.jpg

[Delphinus]

Wow, pictures sure tell the story don't they... :)

[BMW Rider]

I started using it in March and can see better colour too. I didn't get any before pictures though.

[Der_Iron_Chef]

The Polyp Lab website says to feed your corals quality food. However, it looked like, from their description of this product line, that it provided the "foods" necessary for corals to thrive. Do those of you who use this supplement with phytoplankton or anything?

[Delphinus]

FWIW, most corals don't actually feed on phytoplankton, but instead on zooplankton (although technically it's mostly a particle size issue I think).

Clams and *some* corals do feed on phyto, but most corals don't. Instead, dosing phyto tends to feed the existing zooplankton population which then may hopefully proliferate more, and thus indirectly benefit the feeding of your corals that way. But you're not directly target-feeding your corals phyto.

Zooplankton on the other hand will have a direct target feeding benefit. Stuff like rotifers, possibly even baby brine shrimp, and so on. Basically, little itty-bitty critters that move on their own, as opposed to free floating plant cells. :)

Just thought I'd share that little nugget of info. ;)

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Good to know! My little jar of Reef Roids just says "marine plankton"....so that could be anything, I guess. :neutral:

[Delphinus]

I think the term "plankton" usually refers to "zooplankton". Basically "phyto"=plants "zoo"=animals.

Although now that I think of it, does that still work for "zooxanthellae"? Zooxanthellae are dinoflagellates, which I thought was more like a photosynthetic bacterium. Are they capable of motion? I'm not sure.

I guess I'm taking the thread off track now. Whoops, sorry...

[Snappy]

I think the term "plankton" usually refers to "zooplankton". Basically "phyto"=plants "zoo"=animals.
I guess I'm taking the thread off track now. Whoops, sorry...
Tony here's an interesting tidbit. If my "non-photosynthetic' yellow gorgonion happens to be closed when I clean the green algae off my glass it creates a feeding response and the polyps open up. So then the question is; do they eat phyto or zoo, or both? Again off topic...:wink:
Now back on topic:
I just metioned in the other thread about reef resh that my devils hand's polyps are now open all day but had been closed for 2 years straight before I started the RF program.

[littlesilvermax]

I wonder if Polyp Labs is still following this?

1) should I vacuum out the bio-films when doing a water change? (the stuff full of bubbles on some of the rocks?)

2) can I dose all three of the little bottles at the same time (dark hours)?

[Snappy]

I wonder if Polyp Labs is still following this?

2) can I dose all three of the little bottles at the same time (dark hours)?

I can answer this one, Yes. Well actually I should clarify that by saying I think so because I sometimes do with no negative results. The genesis can go in at anytime and the other two go in after lights out. I dose the "fuel & genesis" at the same time at the start of the photoperiod. Although when I am going to be away I put a weeks worth of all 3 together the night before I leave so my wife only has to dose the "fuel" daily.

[littlesilvermax]

Anybody notice that the one small bottle of pink stuff (can't remember the name right now) lasts a lot longer then the other two small bottles?

I think I will not need the pink bottle for my third set of reefrefresh.

[BMW Rider]

Anybody notice that the one small bottle of pink stuff (can't remember the name right now) lasts a lot longer then the other two small bottles?

I think I will not need the pink bottle for my third set of reefrefresh.

Same here, I will soon need a refill of the other products but have lots of the pink stuff left.

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Updates? Pictures? Should I do it?

Reef-resh...Ultralith...Zeovit, oh my.

:confused:

[albert_dao]

Check this out:

http://zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10819