Flame didn't make it... Need new fish suggestions.

[OCDP]

Well, I am about to give up on fish alltogether.

I don't know what happened... the fish lived in my tank happy and healthy for nearly 2 weeks, it ate every time I fed. Then on Tuesday evening after work I came home, fed the tank.. and he didn't eat. This was odd.. I inspected him and yes I do admit to seeing a coulpe ick spots, but that's nothing serious, it's had a couple spots since I introduced it, and they all went away after feeding with Garlic. Well, when I woke up Wednesday morning... the flame was dead. I really don't think it was ick, as I had never seen the fish look too bad. I am HOPING it was not from the tank size , and unseen stress or something.

But now , I don't know what to do... all's I do know, is that I give up on expensive fish. I need to stick to small, tough fish. So.. please folks, can you give me some suggestions as to a smaller sized tough fish?? I like colour, and active fish. I feel bad... had I noticed anything wrong sooner I would have gotten it out and into someone elses system or to someone who could have QT'd him.

RIP little guy :(

[Invigor]

i've gone thru 3 flames, a potters, 2 copperband butterflies..feel better?

[SJSobczyk]

Scott,

Sorry to hear about your loss. I have had a couple of mysterious deaths before and sometimes there is not too much you can do about it. Alot of stress on these little buggers coming from the ocean to our tanks.

Why dont you just hold off and keep your current livestock until you get your other tank setup? Or is that sidelined for now?

Steve

[OCDP]

I know that things happen.. it's just annoying after the first 5 losses or so you start to feel like you should stop buying fish for good.

Steve, I won't be adding anymore fish to my system until the new one is up, no worries there. It has been sidelined, but not for long at all. I am ordering my Aqualight Pro today or tomorrow, once I have that all's I need is my cube and the stand... the rest is all small stuff. Should be a fun project.

Here's a dumb question.. but I'm curious:

Say I had a bad ick problem and it's in my system ... when I move to a new tank, would the ick somehow just go away? hahah, that sounds dumb.. but would it die if I switch everything over to a new tank? Adding new sand, cleaning old sand, cleaning the rocks... would this remove the parasite? I know it's a silly question and I figure it's a long shot.. but I am curious.

Thanks guys,
Scott

[allincuddy]

Scott, ick is always present in the water system, it is only when the fish are weak or stressed do the get it. I believe there is no way to get rid of ick from the water, but prevention is to keep fish healthy and non-stressed.
This applies to fresh water and if there is a difference in sw please advise Scott differently.
Thanks

[TheReefGeek]

Sounds like you just got unlucky.

You can try some colorfull gobies, or anthias maybe.

[Murminator]

anthias maybe.


Not in a 20G :eek:

[OCDP]

Oops. Should mention , any new fish will be going into my 45g cube when it's up and running . Just so we're all clear :D

I don't really care for Anthias too , too much... but they are colorful fish..

I am definitely looking for suggestions for fish... tough fish that would be able to fight off or at least somewhat fight off parasites.. and something colorful.... and active hahah

Please let me know your suggestions :)

[midgetwaiter]

Too bad to hear that Scott but at least you've learned from it.

Be a little bit more careful about choosing your livestock, if you see any reason to wonder about health, don't buy it. QT EVERYTHING. When you have your new tank you'll have the smaller one to use as a QT, put every piece of livestock you buy in there for a minimum of 2 weeks.

It is a big hassle to do the QT and it is tough to walk away from something you really want if there are questions but you'll be better off for it. I'm really bad for that.

Maybe try a Royal Gramma?

[DanG]

I just picked up 3 more chromis to add to the 2 I had already and they're doing a lot of schooling, and they're all over the tank. Mine are still a nice green. Depending on their diet they may lose some of their colour.

[Bob I]

I am not surprised. A Flame Angel is not considered a very good choice for a tiny 20 gallon tank.:sad:

[Skimmerking]

sorry to hear about your loss man. May be its where you are buying them from could or may have a impact on your livestock. But with me when i had my 62 gal sps all topped out going really good my cucumber decided to take the powerhead express and lick the side of the maxi jet.. Well i came home from work around 3pm in the afternoon.:sad: And my 4 yr old coral beauty was dead in the corner floating there with its mouth open.

It looked like the fish was scared to death it was the only fish that didnt make it weird thou. may be it was spooked from the cuke dying. I know when i got home the cuke was still living because i had to cut him off he was mangled...

So i was kinda in shockness. I did a 20 gal water chanege and everything was good after that .....

go figure.

[OCDP]

Bob, there is no use posting in my threads as your on my ignore list. Sounds familiar dosen't it?

The thing was it looked healthy when purchased , and fine in my tank for a few days then I noticed a spot of ick. Fed every day with Garlic and no problems , all the ick was gone. Then I noticed one or two spots max a few days later.. never anymore than a couple spots.. and continued with the garlic.. it continued to do well. Then it just stopped eating, and next morning was no longer with me.

The bad thing is I still won't be able to QT when I get a new setup... the reason is I have no space for another tank. I could try to make some space.. but it's doubtful.

I like the Royal Gramma idea... thanks, very colorful active fish. Great choice.

I will however, be more careful with the next fish. And it will not be added until the new system is up.

[RobbAdams]

My favorite small tank fish include:

Most any clowns
Strawberry dottyback (tank raised would be best)
Yellow watchman goby
Pseudo's (They can be mean)
Coral Beauty (I kept one for about a year, until I bought an eel, that ate him)
Fire fish (purple or regular)
Cardinals apparently can breed in an aquarium that might be neat


Robb

[OCDP]

Thanks for the suggestions Robb. :smile:

[TheReefGeek]

Not in a 20G :eek:

I meant for his new tank, he said he is not adding any fish until he upgrades.

I really like my scissortail gobies they are colorfull, and the small fairy wrasses might do ok in your newer larger tank, although 45g is still pretty small for some of these fishies.

Do you have any LFS in calgary that quarantine their livestock for 2 weeks? I have never gotten a single disease or death from any fish I have gotten from a LFS here in Edmonton that does that.

[TheReefGeek]

I am not surprised. A Flame Angel is not considered a very good choice for a tiny 20 gallon tank.:sad:
Bob, there was already a big thread on this, no need to repeat it here.

He is looking for fish suggestions not critisisms. Telling him you are not surprised his fish died is not being helpfull.

It would be more helpfull to provide some advice on some more suitable colorfull, hardy fish.

[Reefhawk1]

Here is what I have in my 30 gallon cube and it may seem like allot of fish,

2 Green Chromis
1 flame angel
1 Marine Betta
1 Cinnamon clown

In my 33 gallon sump I have 2 false percula clowns and two saddle back clowns a mandarin fish and a small blue stripe goby. All of these fish are small except for the Betta and flame angel.

I am sorry for your loss, Flame angels are nice fish. This is my second one and I have had this one for two years. I have heard that some of these fish are cyanide caught and come from some great depths in the ocean causing them to live a short life . My first Flame died within two weeks, it had no visible lesions or ich :cry:


Hope you find a healthy fish for your setup

[Tarolisol]

Maybe a flame hawk or pygmy angel would be neat. Or you could upgrade a little bigger and possibly get a small yellow tang.

[howdy20012002]

In the reading i have done, you can apparently rid your tank of ick by having it without fish for a month
the parasites require a host to live.
Without the fish to host them, they apparently die. I personally have held off on putting any fish into one of my tanks for 2 months after i lost the whole tank to what i believe was velvet.
A UV light will help rid the tank of it as well and it will help kill off the parasites while they pass thru the light
If you take the stuff you currently have in ur tank and put it into the other tank without waiting the month, you could very well be bringing the parasite into the new tank as it will basically sit in the sand and on the LR in a dormant state for a period of time.
hope this helps...and of course this could all be wrong..ask five reefers about something and you will get 5 different answers...all of which are right..jk
Neal

[Murminator]

Not in a 20G



I meant for his new tank, he said he is not adding any fish until he upgrades.

I really like my scissortail gobies they are colorfull, and the small fairy wrasses might do ok in your newer larger tank, although 45g is still pretty small for some of these fishies.

Do you have any LFS in calgary that quarantine their livestock for 2 weeks? I have never gotten a single disease or death from any fish I have gotten from a LFS here in Edmonton that does that.

or anthias maybe.


Ok not in a 45G :eek:

[Bartman]

In the reading i have done, you can apparently rid your tank of ick by having it without fish for a month
the parasites require a host to live.
Without the fish to host them, they apparently die.
Neal

Neal is right here. If your fish had Ick then your tank has Ick now. The stage where you can see spots on your fish is only one stage of Ick. Those spots, or spores, will fall off your fish and lay dormant for 4-5 weeks after which they will go looking for another host to start the cycle again. If there are no fish the Ick dies. If fish are present you have another 6 weeks of Ick. You can cure the fish but the only way to deal with Ick is to run your tank fishless for 6 weeks or more. When you switch to your new tank might be the ideal time to do this.

[TheReefGeek]

Small lyretail anthias would do fine, but they would outgrow the tank eventually.

[Reefhawk1]

You can keep some single Anthias in a 25 gallon tank depending on the species . Here is a link to some Anthias descriptions if anyone is interested.

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/scateg.cfm?siteid=21&pCatId=20&TopCatId=20

[mr_alberta]

A Six Line wrasse is a good nano fish. Relatively small, colorful, hardy and active. As long it is the last or one of the last fish you add it should be fine.

I agree with Murray on the Anthias though. May not be an ideal tank size for them. Also their feeding requirements dirty up the water pretty quick...

[Old Guy]

The way I see it is 1 inch of fish per five gals. 2 percs, ywg and a lmb already maxes out the new tank. The 20 is already overstocked and the flame probably died of an ammonia spike.

[OCDP]

I really like the 6 line wrasses and Royal Gramma's.

I always thought that 6 lines were really wimpy fish.. I just want something tough that if it gets a couple ick spots its not completely doomed...

Thank you all for the ick info. I will have to seriously consider leaving my tank fallow for 6 weeks. I mean.. if it rids me of ick, then GOOD.. it gives me better chances of success with fish. I just may be able to use my current 20g as a QT.

The weird thing is though......

All current fish in the tank have no ick whatsoever.. not a single spot... that inclues: 1 YWG, 1 Lawnmower Blenny and 2 True Percula clowns

Anyways, thanks again guys.. I have some thinking to do.

[TheReefGeek]

The way I see it is 1 inch of fish per five gals. 2 percs, ywg and a lmb already maxes out the new tank. The 20 is already overstocked and the flame probably died of an ammonia spike.
I don't agree with that at all.

The "per inch" thing is very rough, some fish are long and skinny and eat very little, some are short and fat and eat like pigs.

It also depends on how much you feed the fish, because fish make waste in proportion to how much you feed them.

Also it depends on the tank and the equipment. With a good amount of live rock and sand for bacteria to grow on, and a good skimmer, you can go WAY over that and not experience an ammonia spike. I had a 50g up for a year with 13 fish totalling about 20-25inches, and never lost a single fish.

[Xtasia]

In the reading i have done, you can apparently rid your tank of ick by having it without fish for a month
the parasites require a host to live.

I've read this too... but they say 6 weeks to acheive the full life cycle. Some say to turn up the heat a few degrees too in an effort to speed up the process. Better to err on the side of caution. I'd clear all your fish out, run the UV if oyu have one and let all the things in your existing tank run fishless for 6 weeks before transferring it into your new tank.

[OCDP]

This sounds like the best idea.. and the smartest time to do so.

While leaving the tank fishless... do I need to treat any of my current fish?? Read the above post for more info.. none of them show signs of ick, ever.

Thanks Xtasia.

[Xtasia]

The weird thing is though......
All current fish in the tank have no ick whatsoever.. not a single spot... that inclues: 1 YWG, 1 Lawnmower Blenny and 2 True Percula clowns


Hey OCDP,

I'm thinking because your flame was the new addition he was probably stressed, thus most vulnerable to ick in the system. Your other fish are not neccessarily immune, but healthy enough to withstand the parasite for now. While he probably didn't appear to have full blown ick, he sounds like he was suffering on and off with it for a while. I'd keep an eye on the rest of your fish. 3 possible actions.


QT the rest of your fish for 6 weeks.. don't bother if you are moving into your new tank
Feed garlic and watch dilligently for 8 weeks to see if any other fish gets ick. If so, treat accordingly with QT, HYPO, UV, Garliand water changes. If you see ick on more fish do not just leave them in the tank, feed them food soaked in garlic and hope for the best. It doesn't work. Prayer and faith might turn water into wine, but it doesn't turn cure ick.
Do nothing.

[Xtasia]

Mmm I also hear that vacuuming the sandbed helps... never tried it but doesn't hurt to try when you do your next water change, ya?

[OCDP]

Oldguy,

I'm afraid you're wrong. Obviously the first thing I did after the fish died was check paramaters. And to clarify, I do weekly and sometimes even more than once a week water changes of 5g. I also skim on the heaviest setting with an AquaC Remora.

And well let's put it this way... if I can have a 20g tank full of thriving SPS , then that should be a somewhat good indicator to me that the paramaters in my tank are pretty good.

Definitely no ammonia spike. Everyone in my tank get's along very well... I have never had any problems.

[OCDP]

Xtasia,

What do you mean QT your fish unless switching tanks, then dont bother?? You mean if I am switching tanks, do not QT at all?

I was thinking of QT'ing all fish regardless when I switch to a new tank.. all fish right now are fine and showing no ick at all.

I feed garlic regularly, and since the addition of my new Flame, I fed garlic every day I had it (maybe I missed one day max) I always soaked mysis and various flakes. It ate every time but Tuesday evening.

I usually clean my sandbed weekly as well, not vacuuming though, although I only have a 1-2" (max) sandbed.

[monza]

I for say use quarantine for sure!! It does not have to be set up all the time just when you get new live stock and the following 6-8 weeks. Your old 20g or even a 10g would work fine.

Ick is not always in your tank!

Here is a good link to read on QT tanks.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.php


For a cool small fish I like purple file fish, maybe some smaller wrasses but I don't know what ones off the top of my head can go in small tanks.

Dave

[OCDP]

Thanks guys. I am going to do the QT , I just need to find a spot to setup a tank.. and that could be quite the challenge in my house.

I'll keep you guys posted,

[mr_alberta]

I really like the 6 line wrasses and Royal Gramma's.

I always thought that 6 lines were really wimpy fish.. I just want something tough that if it gets a couple ick spots its not completely doomed...


The 6-Line is actually suppose to be a disease resistant fish, but they are aggressive.

[Delphinus]

Although I'm a HUGE fan of fairy wrasses and I think they'd do fine in certain smaller setups (I had a pair in a 20g), the problem is if you're going to stay open top, I'd actually recommend against these (and other jumpers). Firefish, jawfish,.. oh the list is large, sadly.

The problem is, they have this defensive strategy of "an incredible big burst of speed" if something startles them (and they tend to startle easily, just entering the room is enough). In a small tank, there's nowhere to go in a situation like that, except for "out." In a small open-top tank, sadly, I think their days will be numbered.

I don't think a 6line has the same tendency though. I've never tried mine in a small tank but he's a much calmer fish than any fairy wrasse I've ever kept.

Hate to rain on the parade like this but it just happens too often, i.e., hearing about fairy wrasses meeting their end as carpet jerky.

[TheReefGeek]

carpet jerky
Yuck!

What about open top with eggrate over it?

I agree with jumping being an issue, I lost have lost anthias and clowns from jumping, now I run eggcrate to keep them in.

[Delphinus]

I imagine eggcrate would work well.

[Xtasia]

Xtasia,

What do you mean QT your fish unless switching tanks, then dont bother?? You mean if I am switching tanks, do not QT at all?


If you are goign to be switching tanks right away (soon), I wouldn't bother putting your fish through the stress of a QT. I'd just set up my new tank, cycle it while watching my fish for ick, then I'd FW dip them before putting them into the new tank.

Feel free to do whatever you think is wise but I think its important to minimize needless stress while still maintaining diligence.

[Squiddy]

I added a Flame to my tank back in January and lost the Flame, a Regal Tang, Kole Tang, Blue Damsel and Coral Beauty all within 3 days to a disease that looked very much like Ich. The only fish that made it through were my two Perculas... both of which are still doing fine. I wish I had an explanation for it all..

[Old Guy]

I may be wrong about the ammonia and I admit there are variables on stocking levels, but are we not trying to give are creatures optimal conditions instead of "how many can I fit before there are problems". Even in you went 2 inches per gallon the numbers are still there. I'm sorry but I've been in this longer than most of you have been alive. My reference books date back to 1956.

I have a book here from Robert P.L. Straughan called the salt water aquarium in the home which states" The author has successfully kept in one fifty gallon aquarium the following: 2 4 inch cubbyu, 2 2inch parrot fish, 1 4 inch Spanish hogfish, 3 2 inch unicorn blennies, 1 3 inch cardinal fish, 1 1.5 inch orange demoiselle, 6 1.5 inch to 2.5 inch porkfish, 1 1.5 inch glass goby, 1 3 inch coral shrimp, 1 3 inch lima scallop, six 1.5 inch neon gobies, 1 2inch pistol shrimp, 8 1.5 inch beau gregories, 1 1inch hermit crab, 1 1 inch sharp nosed puffer, 1 1 inch convict goby, 10 1 to 3 inch black angel fish, 3 3inch four eyed butterfly-fish, 5 1.5 to 4 inch queen angelfish for a total of 55 fish. Although the aquarium was extremely crowed, there was no serious fighting and the fish were not breathing heavily. the aquarium could easily have withstood another dozen or more fish. A larger aquarium, three square feet by twelve inches contained nearly a hundred fish with no ill effects, and for certain small specimens such as the dwarf sea horses or neon gobies it is entirely feasible to keep as many as a thousand in a single 50 gal."

We all now know that this was probably bs right, but this was the info I had. I'm not trying to be " the #^&hole" here and I sure wish I had the info that is available now but I flinched when I read "maybe a small Yellow tang " and thought I had to say something. I'm sorry if I offend anyone but If we don't learn from others how many more will parish.

[Xtasia]

Don't apologise old guy...

Seems everyone is an 'expert'. With every bit of information given, it is up to the educated and informed reader to decipher which is appliable and valid.

[Samw]

I think the '1" of fish per 5 gals' rule is outdated just like the 'X watts per gallon' rule for light.

Inch is a linear 1 dimensional measurement and volume of water and size of fish are not 1 dimensional objects.

For example, let's assume a fish has a shape of a box. Let's say a fish of a certain species has a height of .5" and width of .5" and length of 1" inch. That fish would be .25 cubic inches.

Well, let's say another older fish of the same species is 2" long. Keeping the same proportions, its height would be 1", and its width would be 1". Then this fish would be 2 cubic inches. That means the fish is 8 times bigger.

So now, given that we have 2 fish of equal proportion, the rules states that the 2" long fish only needs twice the volume of water even though it is 8x bigger??? Expand that to a 3" or 4" of fish and you'll see how this rule lost me (IE. A 4" fish is 64 times bigger than a 1" fish but the rule says that the 4" fish only needs 4 times more water volume than the 1" fish).

[Deathstar]

Hi Scott,

Sorry to here about your Flame.:cry:

Eric

[Skimmerking]

pin point that one pretty good I was never a fan of the measure stage for a salt water tank.


I think the '1" of fish per 5 gals' rule is outdated just like the 'X watts per gallon' rule for light.

Inch is a linear 1 dimensional measurement and volume of water and size of fish are not 1 dimensional objects.

For example, let's assume a fish has a shape of a box. Let's say a fish of a certain species has a height of .5" and width of .5" and length of 1" inch. That fish would be .25 cubic inches.

Well, let's say another older fish of the same species is 2" long. Keeping the same proportions, its height would be 1", and its width would be 1". Then this fish would be 2 cubic inches. That means the fish is 8 times bigger.

So now, given that we have 2 fish of equal proportion, the rules states that the 2" long fish only needs twice the volume of water even though it is 8x bigger??? Expand that to a 3" or 4" of fish and you'll see how this rule lost me.

[Murminator]

Yeah I am not on the inch/gallon rule, what if it is a 20G tank with 50 pounds of rock there is no swimming room or vice versa 20G with 2 pounds of rock. What about coral bioload? that also has to account for something.