How big can I go while keeping the same light? [Archive]

OCDP

03-07-2006, 04:00 PM

Well, I mine as well start preparing and getting info. together for my new tank. I am not in a major rush to get it going, but I'd like it up within the next 3-4 months or so. I don't want to upgrdae too big, because I just don't have the room, but anything is better than the current 20g setup.

I want a cube, I know that much... but I wanted to know, how deep could I go and what general size cube (in gallons) could I go while still keeping only 1x150w HQI over the cube? I do not want to upgrade lights.. I don't want to have to spend too much, I am doing this mainly for the fish, for more room to swim, and more room for corals as well.

I do keep SPS , all acros basically. Thanks in advance , I am looking forward to planning out this setup. It will be basic.. just as my 20g, sumpless and no refugium.. I may make an AC500 fuge though.

Delphinus

03-07-2006, 04:08 PM

If it were me, with that light, I think I'd limit it to maybe 20x20 or mmmmmmaybe 24x24 sized footprints. Just MY preference though, not saying it's right or wrong or better or worse or anything like that.

mr_alberta

03-07-2006, 04:10 PM

I personally wouldn't go over 20-22" deep with a 150W, but that's just me. A 20x20x20 or 22x22x22 cube would look pretty sweet.

digital-audiophile

03-07-2006, 04:13 PM

FWIW - On my 37 Cube (18Wx20Lx24T) I am running 250Watts, I almost wish that I bought a 400W as I find the light intensity really drops off about half way down the tank.

OCDP

03-07-2006, 04:58 PM

Hmm, I think a 20x20x20 would look cool as well... but I am wondering if the light would penetrate well, seeing as this is in a flood lamp . I don't have a big reflector using this.. hmmm... I definitely want to be able to have a good penetration for SPS and such.

Delphinus

03-07-2006, 05:02 PM

Well, two things come to mind... 1) You don't have to have your height the same as the footprint dimensions. I.e., maybe 24x24x20 or something like that. What height is your 20g right now? Or do you want to go to a higher tank anyhow. 2) If funds are an issue, maybe get the tank first, but budget for a light upgrade in the soon after. I'm sure the light would at least bridge you over the interim.
:)

OCDP

03-07-2006, 05:39 PM

Hmm, well I am not too sure of the height of my 20g. I do know it's just a standard 20g, but I still don't know the dimensions :redface: The height.. I'd like to make a little higher than what I have now.. maybe a few inches higher.. that's about it.

Funds are not so much an issue if I can do this without the light upgrade haha. I just wanted to keep most of what I have for the most part...

Can you guys help me out in deciding where to go to get the cube built? Quality and price.. and does anyone know how much the cost goes up if I wanted to use starfire on the front pane??

Sorry for all the questions :lol:

digital-audiophile

03-07-2006, 05:44 PM

Scott, talk to Dennis when you decide what size you want. I think they are backed up a bit in tank building though. (We were talking to Albert about tanks the other week)

TheReefGeek

03-07-2006, 08:32 PM

If you are doing this primarily for fish, I would suggest a longer tank, because your fish will be much happier with more swimming length before having to turn around. Say a 4 footer. Then Put your HQI in the middle, and have a large rock pile in the middle with your SPS corals on it, right under the MH.

Then just run cheap fluorescents over the rest of the tank, like a FOWLR. This way you only have to spend a little cash on some strip lites, and you will utilize your MH for your light demanding corals in the middle of the tank.

This would be a good setup for future expansion too, you could add a second MH bulb anytime, and make the fluorescents actinics.

But it depends on how much room you have, maybe you dont have 4 feet of space. Just an idea for you.

StirCrazy

03-07-2006, 11:22 PM

size wise you could do 24" x 24" with a 150 HQI but max depth I would go with that bulb is 18"

Steve

OCDP

03-08-2006, 03:03 PM

Okay, perhaps scratch the cube idea .... grr. I am being informed that angels need lots of swimming space (which I didn't know) .. so I am being advised to do a longer tank. I'm having a hard time figuring out what to do here... size is an issue. Length wouldn't be good for two reasons A) I have a modded PVC light fixture made that is only as wide as my 20g tank stand. And B) I don't really have that much space in my bedroom.

Now.. I do want to make the tank more suitable for the Flame... but I just don't know what to do. I'm pretty confused, I am very unfamiliar with tank dimensions and sizes.. I really just want something pretty basic and standard, I'm not too picky. I just need to make the tank a little longer now to make more swimming room for the Flame..

I need some help! haha, thank you.

Scott

TheReefGeek

03-08-2006, 03:19 PM

Do you have any pictures of this modded light fixture, maybe we can figure out how to mod it again to fit a different tank.

If you want to upgrade your lighting let me know, I have various size used fixtures and MH and fluorescent setups right now.

mr_alberta

03-08-2006, 03:20 PM

Do a 24x24x20 cube-ish tank for now and use less rock. That'll give the angel more swimming room for the time being.

OCDP

03-08-2006, 03:25 PM

Can't have anything hanging from my ceiling unfortunately, hence why I have the PVC mod built.

Hah, of course someone asks me to post a picture of the mod just after I delete all my old photos on my photobucket account . Haha... this is the only thing I have that can show you somewhat what it looks like. It comes off the ground , straight up, then the flood lamp is in the middle.. it's pretty basic.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v213/OCDP2005/sharpnewSmall.jpg

(you can see the PVC on the sides coming up... its not too hard to picture the rest.)

Perhaps I could just make the PVC longer.. but in turn that makes it heavier in the middle, which would eventually lead to a bend in the PVC wouldn't it? Also, the coverage is going to be pretty crappy with this flood lamp mod over a long tank.. I think it will anyways.

TheReefGeek

03-08-2006, 03:34 PM

Looks like you used 1/2" pvc for this PVC light stand, if you want to use the same method but bigger, go with 3/4" or 1" for added strength.

Or use wood, pine shelving is nice, and pretty cheap as far as wood goes.

The 3ft fixture I used on my 50g could also sit on the tank instead of hanging.

Take some time to think about what tank you can fit into the space you have, then once you have the dimensions of the tank we can give more specific advice. I think a shallow 3ft tank with the HQI in the middle would work, if the edges (6" on each side or so) are a bit dark for your liking, you could add some NO fluorescents for cheap just to make it look more even. You can buy the ballast, endcaps, etc cheap for NO at any lighting supply company.

OCDP

03-08-2006, 04:03 PM

Do a 24x24x20 cube-ish tank for now and use less rock. That'll give the angel more swimming room for the time being.

I like this idea... obviously because a cube is what I want... and have wanted one for a while now. If I did just a big island in the middle and left the sides alone it would have fairly good swimming space.. and if I were to make caves and other various hiding spots, etc... what do you guys think?

I realize I've walked into this a little unprepared, tonight I will take measurements of what kind of space I have to work with, although I know it wont be too much... again, why a cube would be better for me.

Sorry.. haha guess it's logic to find out what kind of space I have to work with haha :rolleyes:

TheReefGeek

03-08-2006, 04:20 PM

You should be good with the 24x24x20 for the flame, that is a 50g tank, same total volume as my 3ft I had my coral beauty in, just different shape.

Leave room on all sides, and build some arches to pass through the middle if you can, and the flame will do well.

OCDP

03-08-2006, 04:23 PM

Thanks. I think this is what I will attempt... at least I have an idea down now. Something to work off of .... I'll post back measurements tonight of what I have to work with.

I suppose I'll need to buy or build a stand... i'd prefer to buy something, because I am not handy or DIY. What would be a very good, sturdy, yet affordable stand ? Anyone know of anywhere?

Beverly

03-08-2006, 04:23 PM

Do a 24x24x20 cube-ish tank for now and use less rock. That'll give the angel more swimming room for the time being.

A 24" long tank isn't going to do it for the dwarf angel, unless the other horizontal measurement is 36" :wink: A 24"x24" footprint is going to make the fish swim in circles, possibly stunting/deforming its normal physiological needs (from a thread on RC), even though he/she has rockwork caves to swim through/explore.

My rusty dwarf angel is in a 48"x24"x24" high 120g. The tank has less rock than most similar tanks I've seen. The tank has lots of open space and a maze of open rockwork for the angel and other two larger fish to utilize. Having watched the angel's movements throughout the tank, I really wouldn't recommend anything less than 36" long.

Just my 2 cents.

OCDP

03-08-2006, 04:31 PM

Yikes. Back to the drawing board???

The more I read your post the more angry I get that the LFS told me its okay in a 20g. I wouldn't have expected this from them. What a shame... then again, I am just as much to blame, I should have done more research.

So a cube isnt going to work basically is what yoru saying Bev.. I need something long... bottom line.

Well, if this is the case , then perhaps this fish won't be able to stick with me :( The longer I go, the worse its going to be.. this is in my bedroom where space is very limited.

TheReefGeek

03-08-2006, 04:32 PM

How well is the flame doing right now in your 20g nano?

I think you said the flame was full grown so you can't stunt its growth.

I do agree 36" would be much much better for this fish.

Bigger is always better. :)

And if you are going to do 24x24, at least you can help it with some good aquascaping so it doesn't have to swim 24" and turn around and go back the same way. In my 36x18" tank my coral beauty would rarely swim the length of the tank, I had a big arch in the middle, so it mostly did figure 8's.

TheReefGeek

03-08-2006, 04:34 PM

If it is in your bedroom and you sleep soundly to trickling water noise, pull your bed out from the wall, and use a stand tall enough that the tank is right behind your head when you are sleeping. So like the bottom of the tank is at the top of your headboard.

You should be able to do a 3 or 4 foot tank that way, if depth is an issue due to room lenght you could do a 48x12inch 55g.

OCDP

03-08-2006, 04:37 PM

The flame appears to be doing great... swimming back and forth, grazing on rocks, swimming in and out of the small caves I have..

I do know bigger is better.. obviously if space and some funds weren't an issue, I'd be going all out (trust me) But , I can't... and that's the harsh reality for me. I can't have a big tank.. not yet anyways. This is why I said to hell with it, let me just upgrade to the biggest I can go right now.. while using most of what I have.. (lighting being the #1)

I don't think I want 24" deep... I don't think the light will penetrate that well. I was thinking something like 18-20" max. It's so hard for me to visualize this as well, without actually seeing it.

I think the biggest concers I have right now are :

- Space.. I don't even know if I have enough length to fit in a 36".
- Lighting.. I want to be able to keep sufficient lighting over this tank. 150 HQI doesn't sound like much over 50g??? I can't add any other lighting as it won't work with the PVC mod.

So I want to be able to work around this... and obviously we don't know about the space, I'll measure that tonight though

TheReefGeek

03-08-2006, 04:43 PM

What about behind your bed? If you can pull your bed out 1 foot, or better yet 18", even a single bed is 3ft wide I think.

OCDP

03-08-2006, 04:55 PM

Heh, that'd look pretty sweet behind the bed. But that would be far too inconvinient for me. I am actually the lightest sleeper ... I sleep with ear plugs in because the sound of the Seios at night keep me up. lol... it's that bad.

Anywhoo... I am thinking now . I am sure I could make 36" work... the width may be an issue though as well, I think I need to measure my room up before I can set anything in stone... heh

TheReefGeek

03-08-2006, 05:09 PM

Make it work, YAY! :) Your flame will thank you.

PM me if you are interested in a 3ft hood and 2x250w 20K PFO MH setup. Or 2x400w if you want to go with a taller tank. I know you wanted to use your 150 HQI, but maybe we can work something out or you can sell it. I also have a basic black stand for a 36x18" footprint tank.

OCDP

03-08-2006, 05:17 PM

2x250w over a 50g (ish) tank? Sounds like overkill lol... no?

Thanks for all the offers , wow.. that's awesome. I'd like to make this work... but as I mentioned, I wanted to do this without spending a fortune.. as I know I can do an upgrade without spending a wack of cash...

I'll PM you so we can discuss some of the options.... ?

Thanks.
Scott

TheReefGeek

03-08-2006, 05:23 PM

2x250 is what I ran on my 3ft 50g. I'm surprised I didn't get a call from the cops about a grow op :) It was a lot of light! But 3ft is right between needing 1 MH or 2 MH, so I opted for 2.

Try out your 150 HQI in the middle and see what it looks like, you can always upgrade later if you dont think it is enough light. Or like I said earlier, keep most of your corals in the middle 2 feet, and use some NO fluorescents to brighten up the ends if you think they are too dim.

OCDP

03-08-2006, 06:24 PM

Well... I think I am going to try this:

Figure out the size tank I am going to get, and figure out how much room I have to work with.

Keep the light I have... making sure I don't get a deep tank. Test it out, keeping most corals underneath the bulb. I'll make sure the tank will be suitable for a 150w either way though. I really don't want to have to ugprade lights again.

I think in the end, I'll still end up with a cubish tank, anything is better than what I currently have.. I'll try to use more length than anything...

Just seems like the more I get into this, the more I'm confused in the end. haha.. and basically I wanted to do this all without upgrading a ton of stuff and going flat broke. I know I can do it... but I just want to make sure I do it right.

Also, I wanted to ask. When the day comes that I need to setup the tank... I'll have to do it all at once, seeing as it's in my bedroom. How does one go about this? Remove all corals and rock, placing them in a bin... then removing the fish, then the sand. Correct? From there.. I would clean the living hell out of the rocks and sand, placing them into the new tank in the old ones place. Would this cause any problems??? I will also be adding to the current amount of Live Rock I have.

Basically in the end all's I have to purchase is: (please let me know if I am forgetting things, I am sure I will)

- The tank!
- A Stand.
- Few more pounds of Live Rock (depending on what size tank I choose)
- More sand (I might just buy a brand new bag and use that instead, toss the old out)
- Bigger, better heater
- Couple more buckets.
- Possibly another Seio. I am using two 620's right now and doubt that will be sufficient for a bigger tank.

What else have I forgotten?

I know I have lots of questions/concerns, but I am going to address each of them so I do this right from the start. I feel as if I didn't get into this hobby properly in the first place. I want this to go smooth...

Thanks for bearing with me all.

Scott

TheReefGeek

03-08-2006, 06:31 PM

You dont have a tank on your list. :)

What are you currently using for a skimmer? It may or may not suit a larger tank.

If you are upgrading, I always recommend a drilled tank with sump, and a closed loop if you can.

Dont add too much live rock at once, or the die off might spike your tank, add is slowly if you add live.

OCDP

03-08-2006, 06:40 PM

D'oh haha.. your right, a tank might help huh. Also added a couple buckets to the list. I am sure I'll need 'em.

I am using an AquaC Remora right now . I am very pleased with it. I planned no keeping it as I am not going any bigger than 50g anyways.. should do me alright eh?

I know I really should do the whole sump thing, but like I mentioned I am a light sleeper heh. My next tank.. which I know there will be one, will definitely have a sump and fuge. But that's for a tank that's not in my bedroom. Althgouh I may make a modded AC500 fuge, not sure yet.

I'll be okay with adding all my current live rock, then I only plan on buying a few more pounds, so I am sure what I have right now will do and I can slowly add from there. Maybe I'll add only a couple to begin with if I do.

TheReefGeek

03-08-2006, 06:47 PM

The remora will work great for you.

As for your change-over plans they were good, if you replcae the sand, keep some of the old stuff to seed it with.

OCDP

03-08-2006, 06:48 PM

Cool.. I figured the Remora would be okay.

Thanks for the reminder, I would have just ended up throwing it all out.

I will call over to some places and get quotes on tanks.

Anyone know a good place in Calgary to buy stands? I just need something simple really...

snaggle

03-08-2006, 06:59 PM

just a thought why not get a tank that is 24L x 24W x 16H that would make you tank the size of 2 20L if the light is penitrating good to ends of the tank now the a 24 x 24 is not out of reach.

Brad

SeaHorse_Fanatic

03-08-2006, 07:08 PM

Well it's good to see that you're trying to do your research before jumping into the upgrade.

An AC500 HOB fuge is a good idea, but you'll probably find the noise level a bit high unless you keep the tank topped up all the time. The waterfall effect can be quite loud if it drops even a couple of inches. If you add a piece of plastic to the outflow, then the water can slide down instead of drop.

I would save some of the old sand as is, wash out the rest thoroughly & add new sand if you need more. You can then add the old sand to seed the washed & new sand.

As for a 36" by 18" tank, you're probably looking at a 45g tank. However, many of these tanks have a black plastic support down the middle (both my 3 feet 65g tanks do). If you cut these on a new tank, it nulls the warranty. If its a used tank, cut away & get a piece of glass the same size to silicone in its place as a less light-blocking replacement support.

If you can get one or two large pieces of LR, that should be enough & they will also make good bases for your aquascape.

To save money, you can DIY a stand easily out of 2 by 4s. These may not be fancy but if done properly, they are very functional & sturdy. My stand for a 160g cost less than $80 & its roughly 82" long, 22" deep & 42" tall. You should be able to do it for $20-30 worth of wood & screws.

As for current, 2 Seio 620s should be fine, if positioned properly, especially with the return from the skimmer as well. I have a single Seio1500 on each 65g & that's plenty of flow. You can hold off on this purchase & see if its necessary later.

My 150w MH (Aqualight Pro) are not powerful enough for the 24" depth of the 65g tanks. However, most of my corals are on the LR structures & closer to the surface light.

If the new tank is going into the same place then you are going to have to set it up right away. I just moved my 2 65g tanks, although I let one sit running without corals or fish for a week due to a slight nitrite spike (may have been a contaminated test tube tho). It's usually better to set it up, test the water after a while & then put in the corals when everything tests fine. That being said, with your old LR going into the new tank, the risks are smaller that things will go wrong. Make lots of extra sw ahead of time & think of this as a massive water change. Have some prime available in case of a small ammonia spike. Save the old water to rinse off the crud on your LR, then you won't have any die-off from using fw.

Sorry for the essay.

Anthony

TheReefGeek

03-08-2006, 07:14 PM

Wood must be cheaper in BC :)

My 36x18 Hagen didn't have any support down the middle, just depends on the manufacturer and the thickness of the glass they use maybe?

SeaHorse_Fanatic

03-08-2006, 07:36 PM

Perfecto tanks have the supports.

HomeDepot or Rona's have 2 by 4s for very cheap around here (Lower Mainland). I figure a stand 3' by 3' by 18" wide would need 2@12' & 1@8' or 4@8'. I usually buy a scrap piece of plywood from them as well to put on top of the stand.

Like I said, I've built 2 3' stands for about $30 each & 2 2' stands for about $20 & 2 6'+ stands for about $80 each. Now if I wanted to make them pretty & add doors, etc, then it would be a whole lot more expensive.

TheReefGeek

03-08-2006, 07:44 PM

I would add in a piece of the pink styrofoam between the tank and the stand.

OCDP

03-08-2006, 07:53 PM

Wow thank you very much Anthony.. your post was kind of what I was looking for.

I like the idea of converting the AC500 to a fuge, and you're right.. I would be easily annoyed by the trickling, so that extra plastic idea is great... thank you! I'll definitely do that when I set it up.

I am undecided if I am going to do the 36" long.. I need to visualize it in my room first, and make sure my lights would still work for this. I have a feeling I won't be going 36" long though.. I would hope there is no brace in the middle as thought would seriously cause problems in terms of the light.... but if the tank is only 40g (ish) there may not be one, correct?

As for LR, I do have quite a bit, and I don't think I'd need much more myself either.. so base rocks may be a good idea.

I know I could do a DIY stand, it's just a hassle IMO (but saves lots of cash) I would definitely want it to look somewhat decent, as it's in my room so I dont' want it to be an eye sore. I am positive me and my dad could build something... it's just that it would end up taking so long (he's a perfectionist)

And as for the transfer, it should be somewhat easy and smooth if I do it right from the start... thanks a bunch for going into detail. It helps a lot....

Thanks again

OCDP

03-08-2006, 07:58 PM

Oh yeah, and if I did do a DIY stand I would have to have doors.. so what bumps the price? Is it just the hinges and knobs and what not?

My dad has a hmm what's that tool... makes nice designs on the edges of your wood... I just had it .... starts with R ??? errrr :rolleyes: So I could fancy it up with that.. he also has a butt load of stains and lacquers as well...

Maybe DIY is the way to go....?

TheReefGeek

03-08-2006, 08:00 PM

DIY is always a great option. More for the learning and enjoyment that the price difference. Quite often you spend close to the same amount of money compared to new, but YOU built it.

Router is the word you are looking for I think.

And you need the wood for the doors. Skinning the naked frame is as expensive as you want, depends on the type of wood you want.

OCDP

03-08-2006, 08:02 PM

haha,, Router.. there it is.

I know I'd need wood for the doors as well.. thats no problem. I am going to run this by the rents this evening and see if I can get some help in building a stand.

Things I need to figure out now are ... how much space I have to work with, and what dimensions and what not I'll go with for the tank.

SeaHorse_Fanatic

03-08-2006, 08:20 PM

ReefGeek,

You're right. I forgot to mention the styrofoam under the tank. I like to get mine from Rona (blue as opposed to HomeDepot's pink).

OCDP,

If you did the stand in just 2 by 4s & stained it, that would save you money until you can buy all the trim & doors, etc. Those could be added later on to the front & sides with no problem, leaving the back open.

If you AC500, you can just take off the top & add a hanging shop light or clip on desk light (around here, the Phillips Daylight CFS bulbs from HomeDepot are popular).

Anthony

OCDP

03-08-2006, 08:45 PM

Alright, I'll be sure to grab the styrofoam.

Thanks for the fuge lighting tips too..

I think I have decided on dimensions.... I have someone who can build the tank for me. I am thinking of doing 24x24x18. It's better than the current 24x12x15. It will be open top with egg crate, and trimless (I always liked the look of trimless tanks..) So same length unfortunately, but it will work best this way with my light.

What do you guys think?

Delphinus

03-08-2006, 08:46 PM

I think a tank like that would have some neat potential. :)

OCDP

03-08-2006, 08:51 PM

Cool . The only thing is I can't provide more length for the Flame Angel. But I was thinking if I create an island look... with caves and areas for him to pass through,, then this could work out not too too bad. I mean 45g is better than 20g for swimming room... not the best, but better.

SeaHorse_Fanatic

03-08-2006, 08:52 PM

Yup, that would be very nice. If you went with a deeper tank, just don't keep any high light corals on the bed. An 18" deep tank though is easier on the arm pits (speaking from experience).

Anthony

OCDP

03-08-2006, 08:56 PM

Alrighty.. I think I will stick with these dimensions. It helped knowing the dimensions of my current 20g.. made it easier for me to visualize what it would look like. I think the width will allow me to make a nifty Island aquascape (hopefully , my aquascape abilities suck)

As far as the light goes... SPS will all do well as long as they are on the rock work, correct? Just don't have any on the bed is what you're saying?

I planned on doing it something like.... SPS at the top and middle of the rock work, zoos and rics near the bottom of the rock work, and LPS on the sand bed or in cracks of the rock work. Just sketching it out in my head.. I think it would work nicely like that.

Beverly

03-08-2006, 10:04 PM

Scott,

I feel your anger and frustration. Two years ago, I had a lfs employee, where I no longer shop, that told me four various dwarf and non-dwarf angels as well as a butterfly would be fine in a 72g bowfront. So I bought them all, figuring they were all in the same tank at the lfs, and they would therefore all be buddies in my tank. Of course, I should have done my homework much, much better and not bought them at all :redface: And, as it turned out, they came down with velvet shortly after being in the tank and, one after the other, all freaking died :cry:

We are also limited by space in our condo for the number and size of tanks we can have. Presently, we cannot upgrade any of our tanks unless we take out the fireplace. A 230g could easily replace our 120g if that dang fireplace and some pesky furniture weren't in the way :razz:

Johnny Reefer

03-09-2006, 01:34 AM

Dont add too much live rock at once, or the die off might spike your tank, add is slowly if you add live.
Die off of what? The live rock? Why would this happen? Personally, I don't think it will, IMHO. I would put your Live Rock all back in the new tank at once. There is nothing better for cycling your tank than LR, IMHO. Heck, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that you won't even get a cycle that way. I would also add more than just a few lbs, but you could wait on that. Try to match pound/gallon what you have in the 20, eventually, IMHO.

As for "cleaning the living hell out of it" (live rock)....why? IMHO, just swish each piece in some tank water from the 20 in a bucket and Bob's your uncle.

Speaking of tankwater from the 20....try to save as much of this as possible for the new tank so you are not going with 100% new mixed SW.

As for the tank plans and the lighting....it seems a common trend to me, with most reefers, that one upgrade leads to another. My point being that once you get the new tank going, are you sure you won't want to upgrade your lighting? IMHO, I would research lighting now also, with the idea that an upgrade here just might cross your mind later. No? This way, maybe you will avoid some grief on lighting decisions if you've planned and purchased the appropriate tank.

That's great that you are upgrading. Now you will have a QT tank with the 20g!:smile:

Good luck and cheers,:smile:

TheReefGeek

03-09-2006, 01:43 AM

Yes, of course put all your live rock back in at once, the live rock you already have that is. And you dont need to clean it, just swish it around as stated.

Nobody said the tank was going to re-cycle. Unless you add a whole bunch of new uncured live rock at once. THEN the die off from that might spike the tank. By the time "live" rock makes it to Edmonton, it aint to live. It smells horrible from everything rotting on it. So if you are adding uncured live rock, dont add to much, IMHO.

StirCrazy

03-09-2006, 01:49 AM

Die off of what? The live rock? Why would this happen? Personally, I don't think it will, IMHO. I would put your Live Rock all back in the new tank at once. There is nothing better for cycling your tank than LR, IMHO. Heck, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that you won't even get a cycle that way. I would also add more than just a few lbs, but you could wait on that. Try to match pound/gallon what you have in the 20, eventually, IMHO.

I agree with this, if it is established rock from a running tank and it is going to be out of water for a very short time (less than say 3 hours) then thewre won't be any die off and even if there was a tiny bit there is more than enuf bacteria in the rock to handle it.

Speaking of tankwater from the 20....try to save as much of this as possible for the new tank so you are not going with 100% new mixed SW.

this I disagree with, I have set up a new system (either from moving or what ever) about 5 times now and every time I use 100% new salt water. I have never lost anything and all I worry about is getting the PH, Alk and Temp the same in the two tanks.

changing tanks is a perfect time for that 100% clensing waterchange:mrgreen:

Steve

TheReefGeek

03-09-2006, 01:55 AM

Guys, I said ADD live rock to the tank, as in he is upgrading his tank and buying more. Of course he is not going to get any die off from his cured live rock already in the tank.

Johnny Reefer

03-09-2006, 02:38 AM

..... Unless you add a whole bunch of new uncured live rock at once. THEN the die off from that might spike the tank. ..... So if you are adding uncured live rock, dont add to much, IMHO. .....
I would never even consider putting uncured Live Rock into any system. Consequently, the thought did not enter my mind when I read your post and I thought you were talking about the cured established rock.

Do you mean to say that there are no LFS's in Edmonton that cure LR and sell it as such?

There's also the option of the aquarist curing it themselves.

Like I said...I would never put uncured LR in any system.

Glad we got that cleared up and cheers:smile:,

OCDP

03-09-2006, 02:48 AM

Yup, I will be adding all my Live Rock.. and the reason I said I was going to clean the hell out of it is because there's some algae (hair, weird macros [ugly] macros.. ) that I want off. I like to see purple on my rocks.. not algae. I will be adding a small amount of LR though.. and it's for the most part cured. I'm not worried really.. it wont be too much rock.. or if I do need lots, I'll be sure not to add lots at a time.

I will be using 100% newly mixed water in the new tank..

I got the OK to do the upgrade.. 24x24x18. Just need to build a stand. It won't be anything fancy.. just a basic look. The downside is I may not be able to start building until the beginning of April.. or shortly after. BUT in the meantime I may start buying all the equipment I'll need and getting some of that stuff out of the way.

I'm looking forward to this.. I'm really looking forward to starting out fresh and CLEAN... keeping on top of it 100% . I want the tank to look as new as possible at all times. I'll be able to design an aquascape I've always wanted to try, just not able to do so.

I may fill the tank with the water you can get at the grocery store, is it just RO water? Anyways, I am going to use that to fill the tank, then in a couple months I am going to look into an RO/DI unit.

Lighting is staying the same. I haven't had this fixture long, and to be honest.. I like it. I like the way it looks... and if all goes according to plan, it should do me well with the new tank. Only thing I'm changing in lighting is my bulb, the brand, and K rating :mrgreen: I also just added a 1 3/4W lunar light to the tank, and it suprisingly looks great. Perhaps because my fixture goes high up and I taped it on (yes taped.. it looks okay though) and it spreads very nicely throughout the tank.

TheReefGeek

03-09-2006, 04:21 AM

Mark, the LFS here do have holding tanks for live rock. But they don't cure it before selling it per say.

You never know when the shipment came in, and the good stuff sells long before it is cured, because you get to pick out your pieces.

What is left over that IS eventually cured is dense crap with no life on it.

This is of course in general, and just my opinion.

SeaHorse_Fanatic

03-09-2006, 04:48 AM

Scott,

If you're filling a 40g tank with store-bought water, at about $5/5 gallon, you're looking at $40 just for the water & it'll be a pain transporting that many jugs of water (8 jugs total). You're much better off adding $100 or so to that to get the RODI unit from Aquasafe, instead of upgrading later & wasting your $ now. It's really a worthwhile investment because you can use it for drinking & cooking as well.

Most of the local reefers have one & love it.

Anthony

OCDP

03-09-2006, 01:55 PM

Perhaps I shall look into one right now then. I know it will definitely be worth the cash. Thanks for pointing that out to me Anthony, otherwise I would have went and spent all that cash at the grocery store.

Are these units just found on eBay? How hard are they to hook up? Mine would have to be portable (if that's possible) It would need to be hooked up to the sink. Then stored away after using it.

digital-audiophile

03-09-2006, 01:59 PM

I bought mine off Ebay.. as for install, I revieved mine about a month and a half ago but since I am a procrastinator I have yet to hook it up...I keep having to go to zellers to get refills on my bottled RO/DI :p go figure eh?

OCDP

03-09-2006, 02:07 PM

Hahaha, and I thought I was lazy.. haha j/k.

Zellers eh, I am thinking just in case I can't afford to get an RO/DI unit right away, then I would at least like to fill the tank with RO/DI from a store.

How much do you pay at Zellers Greg? (PM me if need be)

Thanks.

digital-audiophile

03-09-2006, 02:31 PM

They charge you $10 deposit on the 5 gallon jugs and each fill is $4.50. You might want to check around at wallmart/co-op/superstaore etc to see what they charge. I just use zellers becuase there is one right behind my condo and it is easy to get to.

OCDP

03-09-2006, 02:37 PM

Cool.. thanks. I was just curious the price at Zellers. I'll look around..

Thanks again.

SeaHorse_Fanatic

03-09-2006, 05:32 PM

If you order the plumbing adapter (around $5 I think) then you can easily store the unit under the sink. It would have a spout on a line to let you fill up your container. You can also order extra line or buy the same stuff at HomeDepot. I have found that regular airline tubing is the same size & since it's not under pressure, it will work fine to fill your tank effortlessly from your sink, without having to lug heavy, splashing buckets of water around.

With your own RODI unit, you could attach a long airline tube to your tank, fill it up 3/4 of the way & mix your new sw right in your tank without any mess.

Going back & forth to buy RODI water will also use up lots of gas for that many trips. Then after spending all that money & effort, you'll still pay the same amount in the future for your own RODI unit.

Anthony

adidas

03-09-2006, 07:21 PM

this I disagree with, I have set up a new system (either from moving or what ever) about 5 times now and every time I use 100% new salt water.

Steve

I always thought you need to at least save maybe 20% of your water when you move the tank, or else won't it start a cycle?? I thought you need the established water because it has the good bacteria in it?

OCDP

03-09-2006, 07:34 PM

Glad you mentioned that , as I thought this was a problem.. but wasn't too sure or not. Perhaps it would be a good idea to keep a few gallons of my water . ?

Thanks for bringing it up

TheReefGeek

03-09-2006, 07:35 PM

I would transfer all your water over you can. You will lose some rinsing the sand and the rocks off, but save the rest for the new tank.

OCDP

03-09-2006, 07:38 PM

Sounds good.

Would it be a bad idea to go with all new sand and keep say a cup of the old to seed the new? Reason being is.... I like the look of new, clean white sand. (mine is all discoloured from algae and such..)

TheReefGeek

03-09-2006, 07:44 PM

Nothing wrong with that at all. I might do a few cups to make the rest of the sandbed live faster.

I keep my sand white all the time with sand sifters, they keep it really nice and clean for me. I have a dragon goby, various other gobies, and a pistol shrimp.

OCDP

03-09-2006, 08:00 PM

That was going to be my next question. Other than snails (and preferablly not a fish) What could I use to keep the sandbed turned over nicely? What would be most efficient as well as most active ?

TheReefGeek

03-09-2006, 08:05 PM

Why not fish?

Sea cucumbers, pistol shrimp. Starfish, but I dont recommend them in general, some people do. Sandsifting starfish will eat through your sandbed in that size tank too quickly and starve, IMO.

Im sure there are lots more just cant think of any right now.

OCDP

03-09-2006, 08:08 PM

I say not a fish because I already have 5. Please hold off on all flaming .. I know 5 fish is lots for 20g. I have had no problems, no territory problems, and no problems with paramaters.. just so we're all clear (also, why im upgrading :lol: )

I am probably maxed to a 45g tank already. But.. I may add one more fish, and I want it to be something colorful and active.. that's why I don't want a fish that will hide in the sand all the time :razz:

What would you personally recommend for moving the sand? I am leaning towards a cucumber myself.

TheReefGeek

03-09-2006, 08:17 PM

What fish do you have? In my 50g I had 13 fish or so. It depends on the size of the fish, not the number. And it depends on your filtration, I ran that on a CPR BakPak II, and I ran an 18w UV sterilizer. No sump, no fuge at that time, and I had no algae problems with that equipment and bioload.

Coral Beauty, yellow tang, 2 clowns, firefish, 2 lyretail anthias, clown goby, scooter blenny, couple other gobies, and can't remember the other 2 right now.

Sand sifting fish don't hide in the sand at all, they hover around and scoop up the sand and sift it, my dragon goby is one of my favorite fish to watch! He is always out in the open, and it is great to watch him sift huge mouthfulls of sand and drop it everywhere (including my corals, I think he aims for them too!)

OCDP

03-09-2006, 08:27 PM

Wow 13 fish eh.. interesting.

The fish I have now are , 2 true percs, 1 yellow watchman (which i plan to get rid of soon.. but im not sure because I dont think I am doing BB after all that :rolleyes: I realized I would probably miss sand too much... and I do find it looks somewhat un-natural to some degree.. so sand stays, oh well.. I'll stay on top of cleaning it.

Anywhoo.. 2 true percs, 1 yellow watchman, 1 lawnmower blenny, and the flame (being the biggest by far in the tank) You barely ever see the YWG and lawnmower. Now that I think about it.. I may remove the blenny instead.. I never see the little guy! Like... hardly ever, once a week or so...

Beverly

03-09-2006, 08:34 PM

I always thought you need to at least save maybe 20% of your water when you move the tank, or else won't it start a cycle?? I thought you need the established water because it has the good bacteria in it?

Compared to the bacteria on your LR, there is little bacteria in the water. I would go with Steve's recommendation that you can start with all new water.

That being said, you will have to acclimatize your fish to the new water.

Also, about scrubbing your rock to get rid of hair algae... Make sure you rinse it really, really well in pails of old tank water. You don't want stray bits of hair algae to get into your new system.

Also, if you have bubble algae, DO NOT scrub it off. Doing so will break open the bubbles and possibly release spores (or whatever it is that they use to reproduce) into your new system and you will have much worse bubble algae in the new system. No amount of rinsing will get rid of the spores (or whhatever.) I can give you more details on bubble algae removal if you need it, just ask.

Also, understock where ever possible to avoid algae problems down the road.

TheReefGeek

03-09-2006, 08:35 PM

My lawnmower blenny is out and about all the time. Maybe when you re-aquascape you will have better luck. I leave a big area of open sand in the front middle of my tank for my fish to congregate in, just a couple small rocks for the gobies to purch on. My orange spotted watchman gobie took about 6 months before he decided he didn't need to hide anymore, so give it time.

TheReefGeek

03-09-2006, 08:41 PM

Also, understock where ever possible to avoid algae problems down the road.
Sure it is always possible to understock, but he primarily wants this tank for fish. I say load up, and stay on top of filtering the water. As long as the inhabitants are all peacefull too, they need a certain amount of swimming room, and an area to claim there own territory.

Lots of rock for bacteria, good skimmer, UV sterilizer maybe, and 15% weekly water changes. Monitor the nitrates and keep them reasonable, use RO water so you dont feed phosphates to the tank. This worked really well on my 50g with the above bioload.

OCDP

03-09-2006, 08:44 PM

Bev, when the time is nearing to setup the new tank.. I'll definitely be coming to you for BA removal advice! Thanks for your offer :)

Ever since I've had the blenny he has been very, very timid and shy. This is not typical lawnmower personality (from what ive read) The only reason I would remove him now is because it's easiest. I wouldn't be able to (not easily) remove him in the new system. He also does not eat prepared foods.. and I fear one day he will just starve to death on me.

StirCrazy

03-09-2006, 11:51 PM

I always thought you need to at least save maybe 20% of your water when you move the tank, or else won't it start a cycle?? I thought you need the established water because it has the good bacteria in it?

Nope, if your moving rock over there is more than enuf bacteria to handle a immediate start up.. the amount of bacteria in the water is actually way less than that in the rock.

Steve

StirCrazy

03-09-2006, 11:54 PM

Also, if you have bubble algae, DO NOT scrub it off. Doing so will break open the bubbles and possibly release spores (or whatever it is that they use to reproduce) into your new system and you will have much worse bubble algae in the new system. No amount of rinsing will get rid of the spores (or whhatever.) I can give you more details on bubble algae removal if you need it, just ask.

Bev, where are you getting this info from? When I was at a meating with Anthony Califo he chuckeled when some one said that at the meating and explained that a bubble algae is a single cell algae and cannot contain spores.. If you have some other info on this I would like to read it..

Steve

Beverly

03-10-2006, 02:47 AM

A quote taken from Reefkeeping Magazine's article "Bubble" Algae: Selected Descriptions, Controls and Comments, by Horge Cortez-Jorge Jr.:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-02/hcj/feature/index.php

"Much has been said about the danger of liberating spores when popping the vesicles of bubble algae. This is particularly true for members of Order Valoniaceae, but even then, the vesicles are said to be a sporulant risk only when having reached at least a third of their full size. Even if spores escape when you botch the job of vesicle-removal ('vesectomy', anyone?), those escapee spores have to run the gauntlet of herbivorous filter feeders, filtration equipment, and the wild lottery of hitting a good, unoccupied spot to settle and grow. Those spores will eventually be released anyway if you don't remove the vesicles."

The whole article is quite interesting. I use a modified screwdriver method described:

"My weapon of choice ought to be a small stainless-steel flathead screwdriver, sharpened to wicked excess, and used to gouge out the offenders at the anchorage, even including a thin veneer of rock. Bare fingernails can be unreliable for removing certain 'bubble algae', and can invite injury and infection. I have seen small manicuring scissors, carefully bent in a curve, used to snip off vesicles 'at the root' -but this almost surely leaves the anchorage structure intact, and likely ruptures the vesicle."

StirCrazy

03-10-2006, 12:28 PM

Beverly

03-10-2006, 03:38 PM

Steve,

Scientific studies or no scientific studies, I will NEVER, EVER again scrub valonia off my rocks. When I did so repeatedly in my 42g hex, when it was running, the valonia in the tank ended up taking over to the point where it was everywhere.

As a result of my personal experiences with this invasive, ugly pest, I now remove affected rocks from the tank and excise the rock surrounding the valonia, as well as the valonia. This PITA effort has erradicated valonia in two of my tanks, and reduced it to almost none in the third tank.

OCDP

03-13-2006, 02:33 PM

Updates..

Still waiting on the word for the Cube, and when it can be built, etc..

Over the weekend I added an AC500 to my 20g. This will more than likely be used as a fuge on the Cube tank. I love this thing, it adds a nice extra amount of flow to the back wall of the tank, so there are no dead spots in the back of the tank now. Also, I can run carbon and sponge now and already the tank water looks much more clear. Ahhhh.... carbon!

I also decided to go ahead and purchase a 24" Aqualight Pro. I should have this within the next couple weeks... I am really looking forward to using one of these fixtures. It is just much more sleek and nicer on the eyes. It will be great for my cube (24x24x18) Because now I have the 150w HQI + the 2 actinics. More light! :multi:

Would I be able to make the cube 24x24x20 now if I am using the aqualight pro? Or is the extra actinic not going to do too much for the tank?

Anyways... there's some progress, things are looking up. The two (well, three things really) that I need to get out of the way are the stand (which won't be built until April) The Cube... and I really want an RO/DI unit for this tank. I am just not sure if I will be able to add it as soon as I'd like.

That's all for now.

OCDP

03-13-2006, 02:33 PM