DSB in a bucket

[adidas]

Anyone here ever try the deep sand bed in a bucket? think i'm going to set one up for a de-nitrifier.

[DanG]

Would you actually have enough surface area for that to work?

[TheReefGeek]

HUGE thread in reef central on this, not a whole lot of evidence YET that it lowers nitrates that much, but it is so cheap to operate, I am going to put 2 pails on my system soon.

[Delphinus]

Yeah, I'm trying it for about 2 months now on my 90g.

Unfortunately I can't say it's produced any results for me. But my 90g, despite being a very low bioload tank, has been battling chronic nitrate buildup for at least the past 6 months. So it's hard to say whether it is performing but it simply cannot overcome whatever it is that's wrong with the tank (old sand maybe ?? Underskimmed? Poor design of the sump? I honestly don't know); or whether it's just simply not performing.

Just to give you an idea, in January and early February I did a series of approx. 60g water changes and eventually whittled the NO3 down to about 5ppm from about 30ppm. One month later it is already 10-15ppm. The only fish are a pair of ocellaris, there are some emeralds, two peppermints and some acro crabs. So it's not really a case of overfeeding. Probably about 100-120 lbs of live rock and 1" of sugar sand. I skim with an ASM G3X and I also grow chaeto out of this tank and it grows like a weed. Nothing seems to be able to keep the NO3 in check. I had high hopes for the DSB in a bucket but so far I can't claim to see any of the results that others were claiming.

But, what the heck, it's an easy enough thing to implement. I guess it's a case of you have nothing to lose by trying it (except for the money to put out to buy sand).

[dirtyreefer]

If only sulfur denitrators weren't so damn expensive :rolleyes:

[Bill]

I have a DSB in a separate bucket in my sump for about 2 months now. Not sure if it helps for nitrate, but the fish and coral definately look better. Fish are more lively and coral color, growth, and polyp extension is much better. Algae growth also slowed down.

[adidas]

cool. ya i was reading the huge thread on RC, think I will try it as i've had high nitrate problems in the past.

[mr_alberta]

Wouldn't a fuge with lots of macro be better for nitrates than a DSB in a bucket? Just wondering.

[TheReefGeek]

Perhaps. And perhaps running both is even better.

Brief run-down of a R-DSB (Remote Deep Sand Bed)

1. Use a container such as a 5g bucket
2. Drill and install two bulkheads, on opposite sides of the bucket, one for in, one for out.
3. Fill with sand - silica sand, NOT aragonite sand, aragonite might fuse together because of the low flow. Use a silicate test kit if you want to make sure you are not leeching silicates, but according to the RC thread, this is not a concern. Fill up to the bottom of the bulkhead, use larger grain sand for the top layer so it doesnt blow away.
4. Cover to avoid light and unwanted algae growth
5. Hook up a powerhead to the intake on the bucket, or to the output of your skimmer, or UV, etc. Gph is not exact, but not much is needed, make sure you dont overdue your bulkhead. After the skimmer is prefered so you dont get gunk building up in the RDSB

Now you are done, and all it cost you to potentially reduce your nitrates is a salt bucket you have kicking around, a couple bulkheads, $5 of sand, some tubing, and a powerhead or other flow source you have kicking around.

The theory is that water flows over the top of the sand, and using diffusion the water slowly circulates through the bucket. As you get down to about 8" of sand, you are in a no-oxygen zone, where the bacteria are present to convert nitrates to nitrogen, and the nitrogen is a gas that just escapes into the air.

This is better than a regular DSB because it is much deeper, cheaper because of the use of regular silica play sand ($5 for 50lbs) and it can be replaced whenever you want.

[Quagmire]

3. Fill with sand - silica sand, NOT aragonite sand, aragonite might fuse together because of the low flow.



This part isn't quite right.Calfo was saying to use aragonite,with the flow of water fast enough to keep particles from settling onto the sand.As long as the flow is enough,the sand wont clump.He also said silica was fine if you dont have easy access(or cheap)aragonite.But what ever sand you use,it seems according to Calfo the trick to making it work is the water flow.If the flow is too strong the sand washes out of the bucket,if its too slow the particles settle in the sand,and you end up with a live sand bed with all the problems of a deap sand bed,but not many of the benifits.I haven't set one up yet,but I read the whole thread a couple weeks ago and plan on trying it.Damn thread took 2 days to read.

[adidas]

Wouldn't a fuge with lots of macro be better for nitrates than a DSB in a bucket? Just wondering.

ya put would you have the fuge with 12" deep sand bed in it? i guess it just depends on the size of your fuge. probably better to use a 20g rubbermaid container or something, thats what I might do.

[adidas]

This part isn't quite right.Calfo was saying to use aragonite,with the flow of water fast enough to keep particles from settling onto the sand.As long as the flow is enough,the sand wont clump.He also said silica was fine if you dont have easy access(or cheap)aragonite.But what ever sand you use,it seems according to Calfo the trick to making it work is the water flow.If the flow is too strong the sand washes out of the bucket,if its too slow the particles settle in the sand,and you end up with a live sand bed with all the problems of a deap sand bed,but not many of the benifits.I haven't set one up yet,but I read the whole thread a couple weeks ago and plan on trying it.Damn thread took 2 days to read.

The shape of the partticles of aragonite are more suitable for this, that is what the guy on RC was saying anyhow.

[Quagmire]

The shape of the partticles of aragonite are more suitable for this, that is what the guy on RC was saying anyhow.
:D When I wrote particles I was thinking of organics rather than sand particles.Sorry now that you point it out,I wasn't very clear on that.
I tried to find the start of that thread,but it looks like it can't be accessed anymore.It was split because of the high post count and I could only find the second 1/2.Too bad,the best info was near the start before everyone took the thread and ran with it.

[TheReefGeek]

I went through the first 5 pages of the RC thread again to check. Here are some quotes from Anthony Calfo:

If you have to buy bucket and sand new... the bucket will cost you more
He also states:

A DSB bucket should literally cost less than $20 to make (most of which is the cost of the bulkhead unless you skip that altogether and let the bucket gurgle/overflow its sides while sitting in a large open sump)

If he was referring to aragonite, hook me up with that supplier! He never states what to use, but does give this advise, so I mixed up the part about fusing:

The finer sands are better IMO for NNR.
aragonite only fuses when you allow your pH to drop low and usually rapidly as with misdosing calcium supplements (too much kalk too fast, for example) or having unstable pH (dropping very low at night).

It's easy with good water quality/stability to avoid having aragonite fuse.

I'm so very strict about maintaining a strong and stable pH (8.3-8.6... never lower than 8.3 at night)... I have yet to have aragonite fuse. I recommend high and stable pH for more than a few good reasons aside form this issue.
Also states this about silica sand:

silica is OK for the DSB bucket and use in general.

The issue of leaching silica is generally overstated if an issue at all.

The real disadvantage of silica is its shape. Unlike oolitic sand (round/fluid moving), silica is angular and sharp - it locks in place and packs tight. As long as you prevent solids from accumulating/penetrating... there will be no problem with silica sand here. http://reefcentral.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif
For flow, Anthony states:

not much flow is needed... just enough to keep any solids in the stream suspended and moving on/along. Simply observe and increase as/if necessary

SO, from that I take it he steals his aragonite sand, because it is not that cheap. :) JK, some people have access to Southdown sand which is that cheap.

If you have a few spare hours to read the 30pg post, here is the link:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=595109&goto=newpost

[adidas]

I almost got through the thread on RC lol its a long one

[TheReefGeek]

Nice! They have some good pictures on there for those who can't quite imagine what it is like.

[Pansy-Paws]

Here's Anthony Calfo's latest feedback on RDSB's.

http://www.marinedepot.com/FORUMS/Topic20039-13-1.aspx

I'm in the process of setting one up myself, so we'll see ....

[TheReefGeek]

Maybe its just me, the above link isn't working.

[Tang_Man_Montreal]

Well,
I tried this on a friend's set up. He couldn't get nitrates lower than 50-70 before. It's been running for ~8 weeks now, and nitrates are now between 2 and 5.

I'd venture to say that it does work. :)

[TheReefGeek]

Any more details for us? What is your friend's setup, what size RDSB did he setup, what kind of sand, how much flow? Was this the only thing that changed?

[Matt]

Here's Anthony Calfo's latest feedback on RDSB's.

http://www.marinedepot.com/FORUMS/Topic20039-13-1.aspx

I'm in the process of setting one up myself, so we'll see ....Just fixing the URL... nothing else to add.

Matt

[mark]

http://www.marinedepot.com/FORUMS/Group8.aspx

Was wondering where Calfo and other where hanging out since leaving reefcentral.