Help!!! Ick!!!

[Myanth]

I have lost a green clown goby that I knew was getting Ick - happened very quickly. I have a coral beauty that is battling it, now I have two four stripe damsels, one clown, and a dragon goby that have it bad in the last two days. I have corals in the tank so I'd like to avoid copper if possible... unless I don't have to. I just don't know enough and all the info on the net contradicts itself.

(other than to quarantine all new arrivals.... :neutral: which I should have done)

I added three cleaner shrimp yesterday and the angel will not leave them alone. She is looking better but the rest are getting worse.

Is this enough.... or should I be doing more? Will the shrimp rid the system?

Could it come from a new food?

Could it have come on an anemone? or on a goby that decided that my drain looked like a fun ride on his second night?

I don't want to lose any more fish:sad:

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Mike

[pre-2k]

Mike evey 1 is going to ask u how big is ur tank n hows ur water how many fish do u have................................
but if u dont want to take ur fish out of the tank then i'd use garlic extract its help my fish n i hope it helps urs


Chris

[blood_hound]

I have lost a green clown goby that I knew was getting Ick - happened very quickly. I have a coral beauty that is battling it, now I have two four stripe damsels, one clown, and a dragon goby that have it bad in the last two days. I have corals in the tank so I'd like to avoid copper if possible... unless I don't have to. I just don't know enough and all the info on the net contradicts itself.

(other than to quarantine all new arrivals.... :neutral: which I should have done)

I added three cleaner shrimp yesterday and the angel will not leave them alone. She is looking better but the rest are getting worse.

Is this enough.... or should I be doing more? Will the shrimp rid the system?

Could it come from a new food?

Could it have come on an anemone? or on a goby that decided that my drain looked like a fun ride on his second night?

I don't want to lose any more fish:sad:

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Mike


Hospital tank and hyposalinity, do a little search in the forum I know theres a lot of good threads in here about ick

[Skimmerking]

Well i have always had great sucess with Garlic. I mix it with Spirlina flakes and soak it and feed it to them in the tank .
1. it helps the ICK drop off of the fish. but wont get rid if the ICK.

2 it s good for thier immune system too. for the fish in the tank.

3 .it slows the skimmer down so BEWARE of that.



good luck...

[Myanth]

Thanks. I have read much on here and many other sites on this parasite. I have no hospital tank and lowering salinity in the main tank is not an option.
(not to mention the virtual impossibility of catching the fish) I could set up a 20 gallon that I have if it is my only option but I would be concerned with that as it has not been set up in a while.

Garlic? like oil or actual garlic cloves ground really small?

And if it only makes the parasite drop off of the fish, how do you then rid the system as I have heard and read that the life cycle can be anywhere from 5 weeks to eleven months depending on salinity and temperature.

Thanks again.
Mike

[Skimmerking]

Well the
garlic pills are the gel ones 1500MG or you can get the oderless ones that are 500MG.

The other question with inreguards to catching the fish. U can always catch a fish no matter how bad you want him.:wink:

With dropping the ick off the tank you wil always have ick in your tank when yo have Tangs or Angels, IMO. It usally takes around 3-4 weeks with the lights off to kill off the spores in the tank. If you have corals well that is going to be a big problem too..:lol:

good luck and keep us informed

[Myanth]

Thanks again. I'll try it.

I had a small Nano reef for a year and had an issue with ick on my two clowns. I did nothing but add a pair of cleaners (who I later lost in a botched breeding incident, air hose fell out of bowl and they suffocated) and the ick was gone in days, never to return. Will the cleaners eventually destroy the infestation or do the ick parasites reproduce too quickly for them to overcome?

Hint- I could get more cleaners:wink:

[Skimmerking]

Cleaners are there to keep it in check and for cleaning the fish.

[Ruth]

I think the only sure fire way is to take them out of the tank into a quarentine and treat with hypo or copper. Leave them out of your tank and let the tank go fish less for 6 - 8 weeks which should be enough time for the ich parasites to go through their cycle and with no host fish they should die out of your display.
There is no proof that garlic helps but MY theory on it is that it does not hurt and actually seems to entice fish to eat more thereby making for healthier fish that are better able to fight disease and parasites.
There is no reason that you cannot have your lights on while your tank is fish less as the ich parasites do not care if there is light or not. They need a host fish in order to reproduce so your corals will be fine and just keep your regular lighting schedule.
OTOH the ich parasite can and does live in many of our systems it's just that our fish are healthy and able to not let it take over and are able to fight off any infestation of them. If you add a new fish it may be weak from shipping or whatever and is likely to become infected.
This is just my 2 cents worth and based on my own experience.

[deep6er]

Im not trying to be an ass but isnt it icH not ick

[Ruth]

Or Cryptocaryon.

[Myanth]

well - here's an update. Cleaner shrimp have been busy. They've set up a cleaning station under a large ledge. The CBS chases them out once in a while but they come back. Clowns (3) look fine, four stripe damsels (2) look fine but are still scratching, powder brown tang has none and is fine, coral beauty is looking much better - only some on nose and tail - she won't leave the cleaners alone for more than a minute, sailfin goby and scooter blenny have never showed any signs.

And the bad news.

Yellow watchman goby - dead
Green clown goby - dead
Dragon goby - covered, laboured breathing, pieces missing from ends of pec fins and tail fin. I didn't think that Ich (deep6r) deteriorated fins, but he sleeps under a couple of rocks so maybe he is just too stressed to move away from the hermits, CBS, and whatever else may be lurking in the depths.

I will keep you updated.
Thanks

[bulletsworld]

Cleaners can help relieve the fish of matured trophonts (parasite) that attack the gill tissue of the fish & then the exterior body of the fish (fins, ect). Cleaner shrimp won't rid your tank of the parasite (ich) or prevent the free swimming parasites from re-infecting the fish. When just one parasite drops off the fish it begins to reproduce and the life cycle lives on.

If you have no plans of getting a QT tank to do treatment (Only two options; 1. Hyposalinity or 2. Copper.) to rid the parasite.

Then here is some suggestions that you could use to help control it at best.
1. Soak food in garlic (Garlic Extreme liquid - Sells BA $10 bucks)
2. You can also try Ginger, the newest claim of fame.
3. UV Sterilizer - Comes a variety of watts, the larger watts, the better. It will help kill free swimming parasites. Remember only help control. Although some have claimed it cured their problem. I found it definately controlled it and also helped kill other algaes but also kills pods. So pro's and cons like everything.
4. Water Quality - More water changes.

Other things to consider - Make sure you know its ich. It can easily be confused with Velvet and often shows the same signs. The only difference is the salt like speckles with Velvet become larger and when heavily infected with show a smudge appearance through the fins. The fish also will take on a shiny appearance.

Another thing to consider when dealing with Ich or Velvet, the free-swimming parasites are indeed attracted to light. They swim up to the light to attack to the fish. If you notice one day your fish are showing more salt like speckles (ich), keep your lights off for 24hrs. Keep your tank dark. This way the free-swimming parasites will have a hard time finding the fish & most parasites if they don’t find the host (your fish) within 24hrs die (exception - the fish that sleep in one spot, like Gobies, the parasite drops below them & quickly finds them as they lay in the same spot.) Now although keeping the lights off is not ideal for corals, it’s a judgment call you make since you’re not in a position to setup a QT tank. But to note I have never heard of anyone losing their corals yet that have tried this and have indeed said they believed it helped.


Hope this info above helps,


Lee

[howdy20012002]

as far as i have read, ICH is more of a nuisance more than a killer
obviously, if it is affecting the gills it becomes more serious
However, this could be marine velvet. Which is deadly and could end up killling your entire tank if you don't deal with this very quickly, if it is in fact marine velvet.
i lost an entire tank to velvet, thinking that it was ick. the old tank was dead with 10 days.
just my 2 cents worth..
Whatever it is, good luck with it.
Neal
and that is interesting about the light thing and ich..didn't know that

[Myanth]

Thanks again.

New update -

Powder Brown showing signs.

Coral Banded Shrimp definately culprit in de-finning.

Dragon Goby swimming, eating, and breathing normally, visiting cleaners and even chasing the CBS away from his home. (probably how he lost pieces of the fins)

Coral beauty showing only a few spots.

I just started my MH lighting a week ago... could that have spurred the outbreak?

[Ruth]

Lee I had no idea that light contributed to the spread of ich. I learn something new everyday. Thanks.

[bulletsworld]

About two years ago I was interested in a studies that was done on trying to control parasites (Ich & Velvet) that had devastated fish farms ending up losing tons of their livestock due to outbreaks. In their attempts to look for other methods to rid the parasite they tried to flush the parasites with fresh sea water, keeping in near darkness & the transfer method, in their open water containers (a short summary of the study). Although they weren’t completely successful they did find that near darkness had decreased there loses and continued to do this, reporting later that this one farm never had the parasite (velvet) outbreak again. I will post back tomorrow with some articles on this study if your interested?

After I read these articles it occurred to me that it totally made perfect sense. At that time I had a porcupine puffer in a QT that had a mild case of ich when I purchased. I couldn't understand at that time why when I left the puffer for the day it was fine (no lights) but when I came back later in the day (lights on for hours) the fish was completely covered to the point of no return!

Since then I have tested the theory, putting sick fish in large Rubbermaid containers (called the transfer method) with near darkness and found it to be true as a means of control until treatment. As the studies continue to argue if parasites (Ich & Velvet) are indeed a parasite or a form of algae. My thoughts are that the parasite goes towards the light to find a host. I found that you can control velvet & or ich outbreaks for months by ridding the parasite of light. Either way I would not use it for a long-term solution for control by any means, I question long term what state it puts the fish in, but it can help buy you some time while you set up a stable Qt tank.


:0)

[Ruth]

Lee I would love to read those studies and learn more about it. I have been fortunate to not have noticed any of my fishies with ich or velvet in the last couple of years but have had it in the past and have done quite a bit of casual reading just to educate myself.
It just seems that a LOT when someone asks for help with ich the advise they get is to feed garlic and get cleaner shrimp. I know that the jury is still out on whether garlic helps anything or if it is even good or healthy to feed to your creatures but I do use myself as they seem to like it. Hell the jury is still out on whether it does anything for humans.
I guess it is up to each of us to educate ourselves as much as we can on the care of our critters but it seems that the garlic/cleaner shrimp is repeated so often that people beleive that it is going to cure their fish of ich and rid it from their system.

[Myanth]

My theory is .... ich sucks.

Thanks for the info though. I have five cleaners in the tank and they are still working madly. The angel and the tang have very little on them at all. The dragon is never very far from a cleaner, and when one gets full he finds another. He is looking better. The four stripes are seeing the cleaners as well and have stopped scratching against the rocks.

I have read a fair amount on this ... stuff and it seems to me it is a parasite. It breeds in the substrate, hatches and moves to light as Lee said, finds a host fish, lives on the host for one to three days and drops off at night to continue the life cycle.

So here's my theory.

If one part of this life chain is broken completely, the species would cease to exist. In my 10 gallon I had two clowns with ich and got two cleaners. They were together daily for the first two months. No sign of ich after the first week. Then the cleaners stopped seeing the fish very much at all and became more interested in the food I was feeding. So much so that when I came by the tank they would walk on the surface (underneath) and stick their claws up out of the water. That was a year and a half ago. I lost those cleaners about eight months ago and did not have a problem with ich at all. All of the inhabitants moved over to my 90 in early January. I did not have any ich problems until Teusday of this week past, two days after adding about twenty pounds of well cured live rock, coral beauty, small clown, yellow goby, some crushed coral to my sump, and an anemone. (It was a good trip to Calgary) This past Thursday I introduced the cleaners.

Hopefully they will remove all of the parasite at it's adult stage when it requires a host fish, thereby preventing the breeding of the parasite. And I know what you're thinking. It only takes one adult to make it past the cleaners to breed a ton more. I have read many places that a single adult can only make 20-200 cysts that could become new parasites. Therefor... I know this will not be a quick fix. But over time, maintaining the population I have now, which was my goal all along, the cleaners must impact the population.

Of course, that being said, If I see a decline in the health of my fish, I would immediatly remove them for treatment and I will have that option available. As of right now, they are all looking much, much better, and I will keep you informed.

Mike

[Lorna]

My two cleaner shrimps and Coral Beauty had a love affair going on, the shrimp were on him constantly from the day I put him in. I even fed them garlic but I still got ich and I still lost my Coral Beauty.

[Myanth]

Update.

All fish doing well. By the end of the shortened day, the powder brown still gets some spots (20 or less) There are no fish scratching and the dragon goby's fins are growing back. In fact, I watched him bite a piece of antenea off of the CBS yesterday. The futile stabs that followed made me laugh.

Everything is going well. The garlic and cleaners seem to be working. I know that there are some who will not believe it, but it is. The breathing of all fish is normal and all are eating heartily. I picked up some Nori for the tang and it has figured out that it is food. The coral beauty is eating flake like crazy and I have not seen a spot on her for two days. She opens her gills for the cleaners once in a while now but is not constantly at their side.

Thanks for the concern, and I'm sorry to hear about the loss of the beauty.

Mike