Mysterious disease

[KrazyKuch]

I must have some strange disease in my fish tank but I don't know what it is!!!

The last week I have lost 3 fish, to unkown reasones. Today being the most recent, I woke up this morning and all my fish seemed fine got home from work and my Lemon Peel angle is dead lieing on the sand....She had no wounds no visible disease just dead.....Did water tests last night and everything was fine except for nitrate which was at 20ppm (also have a little cyano), so I did a 20g water change.and I just checked the water again and same thing everthing fine except for nitrate which was at 10ppm.

What could be killing my fish????

[tbone]

could it be copper?

[TheReefGeek]

Did you just do a water change or anything?

[Ruth]

What are your other readings? Have there been any swings in PH or temperature? Anything else that might have suddenly changed? Any new fish or inverts added?

[michika]

We've never treated copper in our tank.

Most recent fish added were a foxface, and a male mandarin. The male mandarin passed away yesterday, Thursday. The Signapor Angel died on Monday, and today, Friday my Lemonpeel was gone.

All readings are normal
SG at 1.024
pH 8.2
Alk 9dkh
Ca 400
Nitrate 10ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Ammonia 0ppm
phosphates were 0.25
All water changes etc is done with RO/DI

All our corals are starting to flourish again, all the polyps are out and extended. Figures, I have a bad rash of coral die off in which I lost 90% of my corals, and now my fish are dropping off.

I wonder if a lack of cleaner shrimp could be contributing? We've always had cleaner shrimp until about 2 months ago.

[KrazyKuch]

Kinda like an update but, we have lost 2 more fish....We lost our big Tomato clown and we just lost our other mandrin Goby.....Both of which have died after adding the cleaning shrimp...

Could our Fox Face be killing our fish??

[Ruth]

Holy Cow that is sad! I don't know about your foxface as I have never owned one but have never really heard about them being aggresive like that. I would be looking more towards water - or something that got into it. I know about a year ago I lost a couple of fish and just couldn't figure it out until I caught my son with the Raid container getting ready to spray the room. Turns out he had sprayed a couple of days before my fish died as well. I would look towards pesticides, insecticides or cleaning products somehow getting in your tank - not directly added in but staying in the air long enough to settle on the water. I know that I have heard of really bad things happening when people have used Windex or Fantastic in the same room as their tank.
I'm just throwing a couple of things out there for you to consider and don't know if it is at all related.
I hope you don't loose any more fish or anything else for that matter.

[KrazyKuch]

Very sad, never thought about cleaning supplies doing such a thing but it is something to look into, but I don't think we have used any such chemicals around the time that death started to occure!! I'm not sure if its the water quality cause my corals and clams are open more then I have ever seen them!!!

[Murminator]

Hmmmm maybe off topic but being a snowmobile/atv enthusiast things run the best right before it blows up:onfire: . I think it's the water, does someone live close to you that can pop over with their test kits to confirm?

*edit* Just a quick count you lost 9 fish? or maybe a couple are counted twice. How may fish do you have in a 77G? I realize you have 150G of water with the sump maybe it is a little too close for comfort tempers flare. If you lock 10 poodles in a closet chances of all 10 living pretty slim tempers flare survival of the fittest

[TheReefGeek]

It is still possible, but if it were fish killing each other you would see damage on the dead fish, and probably the surviving onces, any marks, torn fins, etc?

[michika]

Murray,

We've only lost 5 fish total. I doubt its water quality, as our corals are thriving, clams are fully open. The gsp we got at the meet is thriving for the first time in two years (I'm so excited over this!).

I do have to say that I suspect it may be death by rabbitfish. They are poisonous and our rabbitfish is a bit, um twitchy, in that he is constantly flaring the moment anything moves in his line of sight.

We had, originally 13; LemonPeel Angel, Singapore Angel, two Tomato clowns, Ocellaris clown, regal tang, 4 chromis, fox face, two mandarins. All the fish that have died, LemonPeel, Singapore, large tomato, and both mandarins all frequented the rabbitfish's favorite areas to hide. The large Tomato was allow quite agressive when anyone approached the anemone.

Assuming it is a water quality issue, would I not see signs of something? None of the fish are breathing hard, nothing. They've all died sometime throughout the night, never lights on times. What illnesses attack at night? What type of symptoms should I be seeing?

Does anyone know what symptoms rabbitfish poision bring on? Or how long it takes to become fatal?

[Beverly]

If the deaths happened after lights out, I suspect a nocturnal predator. But then you'd see wounds on the fish from the predation, or possibly some sort of slime covering part or all of the fish if water flow is not really high.

[mr_alberta]

How big is the tank? 13 fish could be agression depending on tank size. I'm guessing something stessing them out at night as well. Or it could be a drop in O2 levels...just a guess though.

[michika]

We have a lot of waterflow, and I'm not seeing any slim on any of the bodies. All the fish were/are quite small. The largest fish, is only about 2" in length, and that is the foxface.

I did note today that the foxface sleeps with its hackles? raised, and did exhibit some minor agression towards my tang todaay while feeding.

I'm still having no luck researching what kind of damage foxface posion does on other fish.

[Ruth]

Does your skimmer run 24/7? Could be a drop in O2 levels particularly since it appears to be happening at night.

[michika]

The skimmer does run 24/7, except for when its off for feedings. cleaning, etc.

What causes O2 to drop in the evening? Just the lack of water circulation?

[Go Lions!]

My condolences man that really sucks. What are you feeding them? anything that might not be so fresh anymore? Do Foxfaces exude poison into the water as a self defence measure? possibly a power failure in the night that you didn't know about?

[Jason McK]

How are your inverts doing?

With all your corals doing great it really doesn't sound like a Water problem. I like the O2 theory.
You say everything looks normal and all fish are behaving normally before lights out?

One would think that inverts and corals would feel the effects of poor water or even water contamination before the fish.


J

[KrazyKuch]

How are your inverts doing?

One would think that inverts and corals would feel the effects of poor water or even water contamination before the fish.


J


Thats what I think......I run the Skimmer 24/7 and it's a big beckett skimmer so I don't really think it's an oxygen issue as nothing has changed really in the last 5 months, why would oxygen be a problem now...

My inverts are doing fine my anenome's(sp?) are both open and out, hermits seem to be really active(more so at night) my starfish are doing their thing, and the snails are doing a great job at keeping the glass clean!!!

We feed mysis, Nori, Formula 1 pellets, spirulina, Krill(for the anenome's)
all of which aren't that old!

If their was a power failure I would notice that all my clocks would have reset!!

[Beverly]

What causes O2 to drop in the evening? Just the lack of water circulation?

Lots of algae/macroalgae will add lots of CO2 at night and O2 during the day.

Also, was doing some reading on isopods today related to an incident that happened to me last night.

Here are two articles on parasitic and scavenger isopods .....

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-05/rs/index.php

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/bp/index.php

[Murminator]

How bout the nori? could it be treated with something? soy? salt? preservatives?

[michika]

The two kinds of nori are, your standard green from BAs and the Julian Sprung red nori.

Has there ever been an issue with these foods before.

Thank you Bev for the readings. I'll take a look at the readings next chance I get.

[mr_alberta]

At night your Corals and algeas produce CO2 and use up O2 from I respiration (I think that is what its called). This is when they convert sugar to ATP I think....

[J.Lloy]

If it is and o2 problem at night wouldn't it effect the larger fish first for them using more air. My parents pond froze one winter when the pump died, so with no gas exchange all the fish died except one...The smallest. just a thought

[Beverly]

The problem is either one that has built up over time and is just now catching up to your livestock, or one that has been recently introduced.

If the problem is one that has built up over time, I can think of poor tank maintenance, dirty (and not performing optimally) skimmer and/or powerheads, chemistry out of whack. That said, I would suspect if it was poor tank maintenance, both fish and corals would be suffering, but it's something else to look at.

Any new additions to the tank lately, either fish, corals, LR, sandbed, new food, or anything else that could have introduced disease or parasites?

If the problem is parasitic isopods, my understanding is that some species burrow right into the fish and may not be obvious when examining the dead fish other than an initial hole and a deflated area under the skin where the isopod has eaten the fish. One article says isopods are most active an hour or two just after lights out and before lights on. These times, especially after lights out, would be a good time to look at your fish using the red light as described in one of the links. If the problem is other types of parasites, I would imagine the same methods of looking for them would also apply.

BTW, any new fish deaths over the last day or so?

[Reefhawk1]

Do you have any soft corals that could be battling with neighbors? They can produce toxins that will kill fish when stressed.

[Bill]

Hey,

May or may not be a fish disease, could be water or air contaminants that somehow entered the tank. I would do a series of water changes over a few days and clean / inspect all filters, pumps, and sumps. I would also run extra carbon and ozone if you have it. If you have UV, I would get that going also.

[TheReefGeek]

Very true Bill, I too would start agressive water changes, run carbon, and clean all filters and replace all sponges and other media you can.

[michika]

We've been doing water changes every other day since the deaths occured. We've been running fresh carbon since the issue began.

Bev,

There has been no deaths lately.

As for seing any damage to the corpses I haven't seen anything that would indicate laserations, dermal damage, or cellular decay.

We have been looking each evening since you posted those links for the isopods

I still think its connected to the foxface in some way. Anywhere that anyone can think where I could research more on foxface posion. I did search ReefCentral once, but I can't stay up that late anymore. I've searched via google, and a few other databases.

[Ruth]

Catherine maybe try reef frontiers. They are pretty good at narrowing down problems. Anthony Calfo is on that board along with Mojoreef and both are pretty good at narrowing down things to try. Worth a shot anyway.

[michika]

I retract my earlier statement of having had no more fish deaths...

My little ocellaris clown was just found dead, he apprently got stuck in the durso overflow, and his face was above water. What a terrible way to go. RIP Mr. Looking for Love.

[michika]

Ruth,

Thanks, I think I will. Do they have a website?

[Ruth]

Yes they do and here is a link
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/
I know when I was having a problem trying to figure out how to plumb my 190 Mike - Mojoreef - was excellent and did up a schematic that I was able to follow and even offered to phone and talk me through it. His web page is also well worth checking out.