Snappy parameters

[Snappy]

There were several people at the Reef meet on the 14th that were asking about my levels, calcium, etc. I have just been eye-balling my top ups and chemical additions (a little of this/a little of that). I finally got around to testing my system today ( hadn't actually tested it since at last April/May?) and here are the results for my 130 gal display/ 30 gal sump:

Temp- 27 C
SG- 1.025
PH- 8.1
Amonia - 0.75
Nitrites - 0
Calcium - 425
Alk - 8 DKH or 3.2 MEQ/L

I did not test for Magnesium, Strontium or Iodine but they are all part of my regular routine. Amonia is a little higher than I'd like but not too bad with 24+ fish and all the other stuff I keep in there.
I checked my cal/alk against the chart listed below. Looks to be ok.

http://www.reefnerds.com/ChemPlot/ChemPlot.html

[Delphinus]

I don't believe the ammonia reading. What test kit are you using? I'm pretty sure it's giving you a false positive. A healthy reef setup will have a zero reading (even with a high bioload). If your tank had ammonia in it your SPS wouldn't be so apt to look as good as all that. :p

Ever test for NO3 or PO4? With the 24 fish I'm going to guess the NO3 is non-zero but even just eyeballing the tank I would expect it to be fairly nominal.

[Snappy]

I don't believe the ammonia reading. What test kit are you using? I'm pretty sure it's giving you a false positive. A healthy reef setup will have a zero reading (even with a high bioload). If your tank had ammonia in it your SPS wouldn't be so apt to look as good as all that. :p

Ever test for NO3 or PO4? With the 24 fish I'm going to guess the NO3 is non-zero but even just eyeballing the tank I would expect it to be fairly nominal.

I used the 'Aquarium Systems Fast Test.' It showed a light shade of green which was more than 0 but less than 0.1, so my guess was about 0.75?
I don't see how there can be absolute zero with all the stuff I have in there?
I am guessing the NO3 and PO4 is higher than I want as I do struggle with algae blooms. I was however, pleased with my guess work on the Calcium/Alk.
Tony, I can't tell if your are saying my sps looks good or not so good with the "all that" phrase, but my reef is a definate work in progress and I have a lot to learn. I appreciate your input.

[AndyL]

Never used aquarium systems fast test - but i highly doubt the result.

Basically you should never see ammonia except during 2 conditions - curing new live rock, and after a major catastrophe. Ammonia is quickly used by a variety of algaes, and is converted by the nitrifying bacteria to NO2 then to NO3. It's the first stage of the nitrogen cycle - which is why the result sounds erroneous. We'd expect to see NO3 and PO4, but ammonia is an unlikely find.

If you did have ammonia in your tank - you'd see corals receeding/dieing quickly and an outbreak of green water, and hair algae. Not the algae your fighting.

Andy

[Delphinus]

I meant they look good. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Ok, here's the thing. If there was ammonia in the tank, the SPS would be dead, really that's pretty much the be-all end-all. They may tolerate it for a very short period of time but even then you would not see polyp extension. It would not take long for RTN, STN, and just general recession. So yes, I was saying your tank looks good. :)

Now, a bit more to add to what Andy said. The basic idea is that ammonia is produced at a certain rate, but it is also quickly consumed by bacteria at a certain rate. In a cycled system, ammonia is consumed at the rate it is produced -- and in this case, you would not be able to test for it (i.e., zero reading). If you did get a reading, it means that it is not (yet) being consumed at the rate it is produced (i.e., still cycling, or tank crashing). Similarly for nitrites, it will be consumed at the rate it is produced, and thus should be a zero reading in a healthy system.

Nitrates and phosphate are a different beast. The bacteria that consume NO3 require different conditions so that is why you frequently would get a NO3 reading in a system because it is difficult to establish the colonies/populations you need.

Similarly, sometimes you might see people fighting problem algaes all over the place -- cyanobacteria, diatoms, hair algae, bryopsis, etc. etc. and they test for PO4 and yet get a zero reading. It's not that there "isn't" PO4 per se -- it's that it's consumed by the nasties at the rate it is produced -- thus baffling the aquarist wondering "what the heck is going on." Getting a little on a tangent here though, point being that if consumption equals production then you don't get a buildup.

Getting back to my original point -- I highly doubt you have ammonia in your tank. A quick glance tells me your tank is doing OK. Thus, I suspect the test kit is giving you a false positive.

I'm not sure but I think I've used the test kit you're using and have noticed that for SW I would also get a nominal reading. If you're really concerned maybe see if you can pick up a Salifert test kit but if it were me I wouldn't bother -- in an established tank there's rarely any need to measure ammonia. Only if you suspect your tank is crashing for whatever reason. IMO the most important numbers to track are NO3, PO4, Ca, and Alk. There are others but to me those are the "big 4."

HTH

[Johnny Reefer]

.... It showed a light shade of green which was more than 0 but less than 0.1, so my guess was about 0.75?
I think you mean 0.075, IMHO. No?

.... I don't see how there can be absolute zero ....
I totally agree. I prefer the term "non-detectable" reading, rather than a reading of "zero", IMHO.

Cheers,:smile:

[Snappy]

Thanks guys with your help I am learning slowly but surely. My sps are doing well so I guess all is ok in the ammonia dept. My problem is algae that produces air bubbles during photosynthisis. I believe these are diatoms? Anyway I hate the bubbles collecting on the rock and stuff and that is what I am fighting and have been for months. Any suggestions besides a stick of dinomite?

[Delphinus]

Kind of sounds like it could be cyanobacteria but it could also be dinoflagellates. Diatoms are more of a light brown dusting and I don't think you usually see a lot of bubbles associated (but you do with cyano and dinos).

You do not want dinos as it's an absolute nightmare to deal with. Very persistent, resilient to any form of treatment, and usually toxic to invertebrates (if your snails start dropping dead you might have dinos). And just incredibly gross to look at. They grow incredibly fast as well - you can vacuum the stuff out and within hours it will look as if you've done nothing.

Cyano on the other hand is usually a nutrient loading issue. Test your NO3, usually you'll find NO3 to be the cause of cyano (although there are other causes, but this is, IMO/IME, one of the more common causes).

[Snappy]

It's not cyano, must be the other.
CRAP!!!!

[Delphinus]

I didn't see anything that resembled a dinos bloom, so I'm still hoping that's not what you have.

Here is some reading I was able to dig up.
http://www.reefs.org/library/article/t_crail.html
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-05/eb/index.php

Also if you do a search on "dinoflagellates" or "dinos" you should get some reading, several folks on Canreef have been through this. I've suffered dinos blooms twice -- the first time I was able to knock it under control by starving the system of light for as long as I could stand (my goal was to make it a week, but I got impatient). The second time, starving the system of light didn't really work, but then I moved and the tank was so badly disturbed that the dinos just kind of went away on their own.

I really, really hope this is not what you have.

[Snappy]

I didn't see anything that resembled a dinos bloom, so I'm still hoping that's not what you have.

Here is some reading I was able to dig up.
http://www.reefs.org/library/article/t_crail.html
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-05/eb/index.php

Also if you do a search on "dinoflagellates" or "dinos" you should get some reading, several folks on Canreef have been through this. I've suffered dinos blooms twice -- the first time I was able to knock it under control by starving the system of light for as long as I could stand (my goal was to make it a week, but I got impatient). The second time, starving the system of light didn't really work, but then I moved and the tank was so badly disturbed that the dinos just kind of went away on their own.

I really, really hope this is not what you have.
Now I think if I left it alone and didn't do the water changes it would turn to cyano but it is brown not red but acts the same way with the air bubbles when photosynthisising (sp). Maybe it is cyano trying to get hold but not able to? Just before I do a water change I blast the areas with a small power head to wash off the outer layers. It seems to help a bit.

[Delphinus]

That sounds more like cyano then. There are a lot of different colours cyano can be, red, brown, green, black (and, presumably, "cyan" given the name although I haven't seen that particular flavour).

A dinoflagellate bloom is rarely, if ever, contained to a few sporatic spots .. they can double in population in a matter of hours (if not minutes) so you can well imagine how fast a tank can be completely overwhelmed. Then they completely disappear at lights-off only to start again the next day at lights-on. Cyano, on the other hand, will also ebb and flow with the photoperiod but seems to be a lot slower.

Cyano feeds on nitrates (maybe to an extent PO4 as well). Do you grow out any chaetomorpha anywhere? Chaeto can be useful tool for sucking up some of that NO3/PO4.. (If you want some let me know I can get you a handful of it .. that's all you'd need. I grow mine in an aquaclear lit by 2x9w PC's and the stuff doubles in size about every two weeks.)

[Snappy]

That sounds more like cyano then. There are a lot of different colours cyano can be, red, brown, green, black (and, presumably, "cyan" given the name although I haven't seen that particular flavour).

A dinoflagellate bloom is rarely, if ever, contained to a few sporatic spots .. they can double in population in a matter of hours (if not minutes) so you can well imagine how fast a tank can be completely overwhelmed. Then they completely disappear at lights-off only to start again the next day at lights-on. Cyano, on the other hand, will also ebb and flow with the photoperiod but seems to be a lot slower.

Cyano feeds on nitrates (maybe to an extent PO4 as well). Do you grow out any chaetomorpha anywhere? Chaeto can be useful tool for sucking up some of that NO3/PO4.. (If you want some let me know I can get you a handful of it .. that's all you'd need. I grow mine in an aquaclear lit by 2x9w PC's and the stuff doubles in size about every two weeks.)
Unfortunately I don't have a refugium. But that might be a great idea for my frag/sea horse tank. I will look into that.

[maverick_8teen]

Snappy! Im new to SW...Really new. I noticed that you had mentioned in the first post that you said "at the reef meet on the 14th". I was wondering about that. I live in Calgary and i didn't know there was any such form of meeting about SW. I am still in the process of learing all i can about SW Tanks and i think it would really help me out by being able to talk with people one on one and in the same area as well. Anyway to make it short, i was wondering if you could tell me about that. Where it is, what i need to do, etc etc. i would really appreciate it.

[Snappy]

Snappy! Im new to SW...Really new. I noticed that you had mentioned in the first post that you said "at the reef meet on the 14th". I was wondering about that. I live in Calgary and i didn't know there was any such form of meeting about SW. I am still in the process of learing all i can about SW Tanks and i think it would really help me out by being able to talk with people one on one and in the same area as well. Anyway to make it short, i was wondering if you could tell me about that. Where it is, what i need to do, etc etc. i would really appreciate it.
We had a reef meet on Jan 14. Sorry you missed it. We get together about twice a year for frag swapping etc. You can look at the Frag meet at Snappy's threads to get an idea.
http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=21608
http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=21263
http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=21812

[Beverly]

I did not test for Magnesium, Strontium or Iodine but they are all part of my regular routine.

If you are dosing iodine, make sure to keep a close eye on it. At higher levels, it's toxic. See Jim Barry's thread in the Buy/Sell/Trade forum....

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=21921

[Snappy]

If you are dosing iodine, make sure to keep a close eye on it. At higher levels, it's toxic. See Jim Barry's thread in the Buy/Sell/Trade forum....

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=21921
My level is low. But thanks for the heads up.