RC Exodus of Experts

[Samw]

Interesting. There is an exodus of experts on RC. Dr. Ron, Eric, and Anthony have all left and are no longer moderating their advanced forums on RC (at least for the moment). I guess they're going to set up a new Forum website by the looks of it. I haven't been following the threads leading up to this nor have I been using RC because of the disabled search functionality during peak times. But sounds like a pretty major development.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=740506

[BMW Rider]

I hardly follow any of the forums on RC anymore, the volume of posts is too overwhelming to try to wade through. I have not been able to access the the search function for over a month now, and without the search function, the site is virtually useless. I can't be bothered to spend the time trying to do a manual hunt for some info there.

I think maybe RC has outgrown its usefulness.

[Samw]

Hm, I can't access that thread now. They must have locked it for review.

[Delphinus]

The RC mods are not tolerating a lot of discussion regarding this incident, and I have noticed a lot of censorship while trying to follow these developments with mild interest.

I'm afraid I have to agree with BMW Rider, although I would say the same thing but without the word "virtually". Without a search function and without any indexability into the knowledge base that exists there, any useful info remains locked up inaccessible.

From what I understand, I would not count on the experts returning. I applaud their integrity and solidarity. Hopefully their talents will not be at a loss to the online reefing community, we'll just have to hope we'll find them somewhere else eventually.

[digital-audiophile]

I've tried using RC before and have found it very large and daunting. The only time I can get the search function to work is late at night??

That's ok though.. I've find so much usefull information here at canreef (not to mention that everyone here is always nice and helpful unlike some other forums) and at nano-reef.com that I get just about all I need!


Greg

[muck]

Dr. Ron's Blogspot

http://drrons.blogspot.com/

[christyf5]

I love a good soap opera :wink:

[dirtyreefer]

I saw the whole thing develop. There was the usual DSB vs. BB debate and the big BB advocator (Bomber) posted some pictures of his tank which had some allegedly illegal carribbean corals in his tank. Eric Borneman (another coral "expert") posted in the same thread accusing him of obtaining these illegal corals, as well as calling him a fraud (basically posting false credentials about his so called "Doctorate in Marine Biology/Pathology).

I think this sparked a huge lawsuit, and I know Dr Ron and Bomber don't get along so I think some of the experts banded together and basically quit moderating the forum.

[muck]

I wanna see this pic now.. :mrgreen:

[AndyL]

Personally I hate to see it happen. Yes RC has grown to ungodly proportions, and has its own troubles. But at the same time the knowledgebase and expertise available there can't be rivaled.

Personally I think we need to look at what's happened there; the actions of persons involved and how to prevent similar situations from happening here. No we don't currently have "renowned experts" but I do see some of the same attitudes that caused the 'meltdown' even here on canreef.

A lot of the problem goes straight to the medium, things are said assumptions made in this virtual world - that would rarely happen if we were face to face.

I see some of the "lobbying" (and baiting by some of these lobbyests) that caused this meltdown even here. We all need to realize, that while there are new (and some promising) methods to keep a reef out there. But we don't need the lobbying that we've seen on RC in regards to BB instead of DSB/SSB, cooking rocks etc. This hobby is rather new and is still largely developing - this whole lobbying / "my way is the only way to keep a tank", shouldn't be tolerated by members or staff. Yes, anyone should be allowed to voice their opinion as to what works for them, but the "Your DSB will kill your tank" "You've got to cook your rocks or you will have phosphate problems" needs to end.

My .02

Andy

[christyf5]

.

No we don't currently have "renowned experts" but I do see some of the same attitudes that caused the 'meltdown' even here on canreef.

I see some of the "lobbying" (and baiting by some of these lobbyests) that caused this meltdown even here. We all need to realize, that while there are new (and some promising) methods to keep a reef out there. But we don't need the lobbying that we've seen on RC in regards to BB instead of DSB/SSB, cooking rocks etc. This hobby is rather new and is still largely developing - this whole lobbying / "my way is the only way to keep a tank", shouldn't be tolerated by members or staff. Yes, anyone should be allowed to voice their opinion as to what works for them, but the "Your DSB will kill your tank" "You've got to cook your rocks or you will have phosphate problems" needs to end.

My .02

Andy

Am I missing something here? When did we have a meltdown here on Canreef?? :eek:

You know, everyone has their own opinions on how things should be done for every topic. I really think its a reefers responsibility to do research and garner their own information to make their own way in the hobby. However, I don't think that we need to "lay the smack down" on any members that feel "their way or the highway". Everyone has their own things that worked for them and may not work for others, just because people have stronger personalities and may not word it in a "politically correct" way doesn't mean we need to get rid of them.

Christy :)

[dirtyreefer]

Agreed, people there took it to another level. I mean when it all comes down it it, it's just a fish tank!

But DSB/BB is like a religion, and people take things quite personally for some stupid reason.

[Delphinus]

I'm not sure to which specific instances you refer to, Andy? For the most part I thought we had a rather diverse experience base here on Canreef, and people are free to post their experiences. If those posts share an opposing view to an already posted about opinion, then so be it, and let the discussion ensue. It is only through the sharing of differing opinions that we may occasionally be presented with a new perspective. When the discussion gets heated and/or personal, then maybe an intervention may happen but until then it's an open discussion.

I'm not sure how we are to not "tolerate" certain opinions, and yet still retain the goal of keeping an open forum for discussion.

[RobbAdams]

Never been a big RC supporter my self.

I was pretty much riddiculed when I started in the hobby, for doing a 28 gallon tank.

Love Canreef, and spend some time on nano-reef

Robb

[rickjames]

That's unreal what has happened over there! What a shame.

Hey, maybe we can make a pitch to have them here on canreef! C'mon, who wouldn't pay for a membership to a board with those guys on it :D

[AndyL]

Whoops, that's what happens when I post at lunch - poor sentence structure...

What I meant was we do see some of the same attitudes that caused the meltdown on RC on occasion here on canreef.

[reeferaddict]

Whoops, that's what happens when I post at lunch - poor sentence structure...

What I meant was we do see some of the same attitudes that caused the meltdown on RC on occasion here on canreef.

Yup.... I've seen it myself... it's kept me from posting sometimes, just because it's not worth it... I DO notice that the people with the attitudes are some of the most narrow-minded people around with great egos. I found it delightfully refreshing to read Delbeek & Sprungs Volume 3 and hear those "reknowned experts" say there is more than one way to skin a cat... with regards to EVERYTHING in this hobby. If those guys can humble themselves it makes me wonder what kind of social problems the basement/closet AMATEUR reefers on here might have at times.

For the most part I find the people on here enjoyable, knowledgable and pleasant. I just don't give my attention to the "my way or the hiway" guys/gals... As far as I'm concerned they need to go take another whiz in their tank...:mrgreen:

[AndyL]

Everyone has their own things that worked for them and may not work for others, just because people have stronger personalities and may not word it in a "politically correct" way doesn't mean we need to get rid of them.


I'm not sure how we are to not "tolerate" certain opinions, and yet still retain the goal of keeping an open forum for discussion.


I wasn't suggesting persons shouldn't be allowed to express their beliefs, I've got no problem with that. Those of you who've met me know I've got some pretty strong ones myself.

The problem comes in with certain people who try to 'force' their opinions onto others. These are the lobbiests (ok I learned how to spell) I'm referring to, I personally don't see a problem with asking them to check their attitudes at the door. Being tollerant of an opinion is one thing, being tollerant of behaviour is something completely different.

Andy

[smokinreefer]

wow... thats quite the shame.

but its so true, RC has gotten so big, it can be quite overwhelming to 'casually' sift through daily posts.

i barely visit there much anymore, and even then only to browse a select few of the forums.

for better search functionality you need to donate and become a premium member. understandable given the mere size RC has grown to.

i've often felt few of the regulars there seem to be on a high horse and are very opinioned, which is very different than just expressing your opinion. but that can happen anywhere.

regardless, i have always thought of RC as a great reefing resource and most likely will continue to do so despite the recent happenings [of which i have not been following, nor aware of until now.] unless something turns me off the site and it drops off my radar [as reefs.org seems to have done. lol]

happy canreefing!

[Cap'n]

As far as I'm concerned they need to go take another whiz in their tank...:mrgreen:


I've heard the Eastern European aquacultured albino hynopora REQUIRE a good whiz every week or so (depending on volume) to ensure a healthy exoskeleton when they split. However, this will only work if the tank does not have BB or DSB. A UK PHD told me he could COD authentic PP to me, confidentially.

Excuse me while I go "top-up" my tank.

[fakename]

I have been using reefcentral since before I jumped into this hobby 6 months ago. RC is certainly a great collection of experts and knowledge, but unfortunately is also a real collection of egos as well.
In my opinion (and it is only my opinion) what has happened at RC is something that is happenning in many areas of our society. Rudeness has become acceptable. Where a few years ago someone might say "a 20 gal tank isn't big enough for a tang, and it would be cruel to keep it there", the norm is now something more like "What sort of idiot would keep a tang in a 20 gal tank, IT IS NOT BIG ENOUGH." Although the information is the same, the message is totally different. (If you page through the newbie forum of RC, you'll see many examples.)
In many areas of modern society it is now acceptable to treat others, especially those who are not personally known, rudely. One only has to take a short drive in traffic or walk on a crowded sidewalk to see strangers behave badly towards one another. Online systems, especially those that offer relative anonymity are often even worse.
The funny thing is that most people in this hobby are educated, articulate, and polite in day to day life and would never dream of treating anyone in real life like they do on the boards.
I've mainly migrated over to CanReef, because I find the company here more pleasent. I think this is in part due to the fact that it is a nice group of people on this board, but even more because most people on this board are personally known to at least one other member. Rather than a community of total strangers CanReef is a web of personal aquantinances, and that pushes us in the direction of politeness.
The exodus of experts at RC is, to me, just the final straw in an escalating battle of intolerance, rudness, hot heads and big egos.
My 2 cents worth...
Cheers,
Aaron

[trilinearmipmap]

what has happened at RC is something that is happenning in many areas of our society. Rudeness has become acceptable. Where a few years ago someone might say "a 20 gal tank isn't big enough for a tang, and it would be cruel to keep it there", the norm is now something more like "What sort of idiot would keep a tang in a 20 gal tank, IT IS NOT BIG ENOUGH." Although the information is the same, the message is totally different.

Agreed.

Also I have noticed it is easy to bash someone over the internet because there if no fear that they will retaliate.

I don't believe in DSB but so what, how does that translate into making a personal vendetta against someone? Some very strange personalities are at play there.

It is a shame, RC used to be a good resource two or three years ago, for the past year it is just a disorganized collection of random information.

Thankfully other than a few unmemorable postings, the Canreef forum seems just about the opposite of RC. Lots of information and opinions, supportive and friendly people on this board. Even if you post a pic of an empty tank full of barren rocks you will get posts complimenting your little masterpiece.

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

Let's all learn from RC's negative experience & keep Canreef a place that welcomes discussion and shared experiences.

Happy New Year everyone

Anthony

[reeferaddict]

I've heard the Eastern European aquacultured albino hynopora REQUIRE a good whiz every week or so (depending on volume) to ensure a healthy exoskeleton when they split. However, this will only work if the tank does not have BB or DSB. A UK PHD told me he could COD authentic PP to me, confidentially.

Excuse me while I go "top-up" my tank.

Haha! That almost made me PP on my DSB, but I had to have my BB spanked first...:biggrin:

[StirCrazy]

RC lost its use about 2 years ago. it basically got to big for its own good and the mods had to go to extremes to control it. at any rate good to see them experts setting out on there own, looks like you will have to pay for access to there new place but oh well maybe that will keep the riff raff out and make it a pleasant place. Anthony is already at reef frontiers (has been there about 1 year now) so I never needed to go to RC to see his writings.



I see some of the "lobbying" (and baiting by some of these lobbyests) that caused this meltdown even here. We all need to realize, that while there are new (and some promising) methods to keep a reef out there. But we don't need the lobbying that we've seen on RC in regards to BB instead of DSB/SSB, cooking rocks etc. This hobby is rather new and is still largely developing - this whole lobbying / "my way is the only way to keep a tank", shouldn't be tolerated by members or staff. Yes, anyone should be allowed to voice their opinion as to what works for them, but the "Your DSB will kill your tank" "You've got to cook your rocks or you will have phosphate problems" needs to end.

My .02

Andy

come on now, your just trying to bate people to cause a melt down:mrgreen: no one said "my way is the only way to keep a tank" well maybe Bob (just kidding Bob) but no one has come out with a statement like that.

also "Your DSB will kill your tank". this is totally made up and stretched a little as the wost I have seen is after a period of time a DSB will start to cause algae problems and the only long term way to correct it is the removal of the DSB. but I really would like to see where you got that statement from.

and finally "You've got to cook your rocks or you will have phosphate problems" do you read left to right like normal people:wink: you cook rock because you have phosphate problems not to prevent them. cooking rocks is for more than just phosphate, it is well knowen that rock gets plugged up with junk after time and its effectiveness decreases. "cooking" is just a way of rejuvenating your rock instead of buying new stuff.

Hmmm Andy you don't work for a LFS do you? seams your against things that will save you money:mrgreen:

[michika]

I agree with Andy.

Sometimes we all just need to take a step back, breath in an out a few times, and just realized that doing something one way or another isn't the end of the world.

I personally don't frequent RC anymore after having been burnt pretty bad over a few basic newby questions when I first started in the hobby. It comes down to how many people interact with each other and how there is a difference between face to face contact and annonymous written communication.

Basically who cares what the exodus is over, it happened. Everyone in this thread seems to have a handle on why it happened, or what the contributing factors were and are. This is probably a good time for Canreef to reinforce or reiterate what type of behaviors and manners that we'd like to see and continue to see from members and staff. Live and learn from it I guess.

[AndyL]

come on now, your just trying to bate people to cause a melt down:mrgreen: no one said "my way is the only way to keep a tank" well maybe Bob (just kidding Bob) but no one has come out with a statement like that.

No haven't seen it quite so boldly stated - but we did see that kind of comment from some of the RC'ers. Luckily us canadians have a bit more tact it seems :lol:

As for the rest of it, I can't be bothered to argue about dsb/ssb/bb/rock cooking etc. I restrict my arguing to getting purchase orders out of construction companies.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't care what method people use, as long as it works for them. My methods work for me, and that's all I really care about.

Andy

[blood_hound]

MY WAY IS THE BEST WAY FOR REEF KEEPING!!!!! MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY..

MELTDOWN STARTS IN FIVE SECONDS


FIVE


FOUR


THREE

TWO

ONE


Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooom




Im Melting....ahhhhhhhhhh lol



Really why do you guys call arguing about dsb/ssb/bb/rock cooking and other things a meltdown don't you guys enjoy reading about what other want to say and what is their experience. I mean its really the only way to find out what work for most out there and whats not unless you want to experement with your tank.....

[saltynuts]

ok ok i think we need a group hug!

[Johnny Reefer]

I AM CANADIAN!:biggrin:

But seriously, folks....I think one great tool to use to avoid the "my way or the highway" syndrome is four letters...IMHO....uh, IMHO.

After reading some of the comments in this thread I think I will concentrate on using IMHO more often....IMHO.

Maybe someday I'll feel comfortable graduating from IMHO to IMO, but for now it's IMHO, IMHO. (Newbie here).

Another good tool is :lol:. Even when your really PO'ed resist using :twised: and click :biggrin: instead....IMHO.

Oh, and it's a good idea to avoid threads like this....IMHO.
Ha! Isn't that a Catch 22!

Cheers :-),

[Doug]

Guess as long as we are talking about another board here, I,m not sure why all the bad thoughts regarding RC. I have been a regular there since its start and remain so. Guess perhaps I have more time, but love reading all the various threads.

Yes, there are some dorks but see them on many boards. Remember any board with thousands of members will have more undesirable,s. :D

Something must be right with the board to have all those members. It was a fine board before "experts" were hired and I assume will remain so. They still have several good "experts" on staff.

Anyways, enough of my thoughts on another of the boards, as we have a fine Canadian based one right here. :mrgreen:

[midgetwaiter]

This type of thing isn't really an internet problem, more of a people problem. How many of you can think of a similar problem that happened with your condo board, book club or sports team? The internet does change the dynamic. It is easy to be rude online, sometimes when you don't really mean to but it still happens in face to face situations too.

The one thing that seems to happen quickly online is that people organize into cliques. Seems to me that spells the end for an online community, I noticed it on RC a while ago. Actually, you eventually notice almost everywhere.

Groupthink can be a real problem too and the standard model that a lot of web forums use can exasperate it. Unfortunately no matter what you try and do giving somebody that Moderator tag conveys "status" and most people don't handle it well. People that are really good mods for online communities are few and far between.

I think the best thing a moderator could do for the community is stay out of the discussion and just provide the occasional nudge when things get off track. Of course for somebody volunteering to moderate a site like RC, that would be boring fast and is probably an unreasonable idea. Things like that RC post by the site admin are a also great example of what not to do, ever. As soon as you try and exclude the average community member from something going on your community is dead and waiting to fall over.

I spent a lot of time researching and developing good moderation techniques a few years ago when my company built an online community for employees and franchise owners. Frankly, it's a bitch to do well and takes a ton of discipline. We had to recruit and train moderators just like you would find somebody to fill a professional position. One thing that surprised me most, the most prolific posters often make the WORST moderators. The quiet people are usually the most reasonable and tend to have less of a personal agenda.

I don't usually volunteer for moderator duties in communities I belong to, given my background it seems to much like work usually. I just watched another web community I really liked go the group think road though so I may have to change my mind about that.

I should note, I haven't been around Canreef long or much but it seems to be a very healthy community. You should all be proud of yourselves.

[StirCrazy]

I think the best thing a moderator could do for the community is stay out of the discussion and just provide the occasional nudge when things get off track. Of course for somebody volunteering to moderate a site like RC, that would be boring fast and is probably an unreasonable idea.

the most prolific posters often make the WORST moderators. The quiet people are usually the most reasonable and tend to have less of a personal agenda.



couple good points, I used to be a part owner of a very large BBS back in the dial up days and when we moded the open chat channels we usaly did not talk while we were there as it was to easy to get involved in something and miss what you were realy watching for. but that is a little different that the roll of a Mod on a smaller fourm like Canreef. I think the Mods here in adition to watching for questionable things are responsable to stimulate conversation when needed and act as a "more experenced" reefer to give people a hand when they have questions and no one else seams to be helping.

I usaly find with your second point that two things can happen and I have seen it a few times on our board 1, like you said a person uses his power to push his own agenda and 2, a prolific poster suddenly posts less. the second is the one I see more often.

Steve

[digital-audiophile]

I spent a couple years as a moderator on the IGN.com forums (The largest video game message board system on the net) and allthough I had fun, most of it really was like work. I put up with a lot of crap and abuse from people an I think that is the biggest reason why I left and really got off the internet message board systems for a long time.

[danny zubot]

Wow, what a thread!

Was stated earleir...
No haven't seen it quite so boldly stated - but we did see that kind of comment from some of the RC'ers. Luckily us canadians have a bit more tact it seems

Unless you are from Taber. (just kidding)

I joined RC and Canreef at around the same time in '04. I have like 60 posts on RC. It was actually someone from RC that reccomended me to Canreef because I was looking for a more close to home, personal touch to the information I needed. No regrets either way, I just found Canreef a more effective source of information for me. Plus the added bonus of frags swaps and meetings which would not be possible through RC.

IMO we have great "experts" here, and of course there's always Bev's links to help us when we are stumped.

[Johnny Reefer]

....
IMO we have great "experts" here, and of course there's always Bev's links to help us when we are stumped.
I think you made a spelling error there, Danny. Don't you mean "sumped"?:lol:
HaHa. Ya, I know. Corny.:redface: Sorry, couldn't resist.

Cheers,:smile:

[BMW Rider]

I think one of the factors that keeps Canreef more civil than other forums is that we are not entirely anonomous. Many of us have met at frag swaps and through individual trades and sales. When you have met someone face to face, you have a bit more consideration towards them and their opinions.

[EmilyB]

So the experts are on marinedepot.com forum for anyone who didn't know.

[Funky_Fish14]

Not entirely understanding what happened on RC, all I know is what I read in this thread. I do frequent RC, I used to frequent it more than canreef, but I've simply found canreef to be a more friendly community than any other forum.

The search function on RC, for regular(non-paying) users, works between something like 1AM and 8AM. Whenever I am on late, such as around 2AM, I have been able to use it.

I would like to point out that, throughout this thread, everyone has throw opinion in, but just about every post ecourages or includes a good laugh. We all have our own thoughts, experiences, preferences, opinions, etc... but something that seems commonly shared on this wonderful forum is friendlyness and humor.

Cheers,

Chris

[asherah]

Lay the smackdown ROFL !!!
hehe

asherah

[Mike Olson]

I started out on RC and found it to be really informative...I have met some awesome people on there, I found out about Canreef approx. 2 mos. later. I spend most of my time on Canreef because it is more 'local' oriented and it is Canadian. RC is still one of the premier sites for reefkeeping and works great as a reference guide or if I cant find the answer on Canreef