Marked up prices . . .

[j83]

I spent most of the day sleeping so I didn't actually go to the store but when I checked the J&L website the 'original price' is higher than it used to be.

ex: Tunze Waveboxes have always been 569.99 now they're at $539.99 down from $599.99 - that is one example of many.

I am guessing most retail stores in the mall do this as they don't have a website with prices on it directly related to the store. But it makes me angry that they mark them up to give a seemingly higher percentage off. If your only gonna take a smaller percent off then call it that.

Love the store but don't like that they are playing their customers.

[i have crabs]

thats probably just regular suggested price not what they normally sell them for but its still real stupid to do it

[RonPeter]

No actually I wrote down the prices of the 6 items I wanted to buy on Dec 25 and when I logged on this morning EVERY item had a small increase, I don't agree with there policy on one hand but I did still save money on the other hand.

[naesco]

If any retailer bumps up the prices and than puts them on sale, it is not only unethical it is illegal.
If any of you purchased goods contact the retailer and they will give you the true discount.

If anyone else can confirm this also happened to them we should contact the retailer and let them know what we think.

[Tarolisol]

I noticed an increase in the regular price to but thought that i was just imagining things, i was all prepared to buy stuff online then i decided not to because of this. I would have never thought that would happen with JL its always been so good.

[Willow]

If any retailer bumps up the prices and than puts them on sale, it is not only unethical it is illegal.
If any of you purchased goods contact the retailer and they will give you the true discount.

If anyone else can confirm this also happened to them we should contact the retailer and let them know what we think.

how is it illegal? if you don't want it don't buy it. it's not like they advertised anything.

[Salinity Now]

About half the items I purchased, were bumped up approximately 5% in price. I had my list ready for this morning and noticed that the original prices had changed from two days ago.

[christyf5]

They did reduce many of their prices on stuff by about 5% in Sept/Oct I think. Maybe its an old version of their website??

[seashells]

I finally got around to getting a Tunze 6000 today. All last week it was priced $303 and change on the website. Today it was priced at $319 and discounted to $287 and change. Looks like they changed the price to suggested list and then calculated the discount. It does feel a little misleading. We all like sales but I think its more important to get good service and advice and paying a bit of a premium is worth it. JL is a good store and I will continue to support them.

Doug

[smokinreefer]

hmmm... this sounds interesting...

i've done the same, listed a few things i've thought about getting along with their corresponding 'regular' prices

i did go buy an item i wanted, but never even thought of checking the dollar amounts to see if there were any discrepencies from what i was expecting.

after checking my receipt, i have no further constructive comment to make.

[Jason McK]

I got a good deal on the items I purchased. Regardless of the price it was 3, 4 or 5 days ago. I checked items on some USA web sites and I felt really good about what I paid.

Hey why is it when other LFS are talked about on Canreef the thread is pulled, but when it's J&L fire away. Just a comment not a criticism

J

[RonPeter]

I'm not mad...I DID save money off their everyday low prices anyways I was just surprised they did what they did, I will still continue to mail order from them as they have the best prices around for me.

[fakename]

I also have heard that it is illegal to raise prices and then offer a percentage based discount, which is what it sounds like J and L has done. I believe that it is illegal in the sense of being false advertising, and that if there were complaints it might end up with them being fined.
Instead of figuring out the legalities though, maybe someone who has a good relationship with J and L management could tell them that what they are doing seems less than honest....

Aaron

[prospero31]

To be completely pragmatic about it (and as Jason McK says) - irrespective of any increase in prices - they continue to out compete other vendors - so I will also continue to purchase items from them.

<shrug> lose some on style points - if it was intentional but they still win where it counts - wallet

[smokinreefer]

i couldnt agree more.

bottom line is a deal was still to be gotten.

it's just how the deal may have been percieved that may be of concern.

[naesco]

What were the results of your checking the price you wrote down and the price before discount, Shao?

So if the posted allegations are true what is to be done about it.

1. Forget about it. Their prices are lower anyway.

2. Call the Consumer Protection people to investigate the allegations. If the allegations are found to be true they would probably be required to place a prominent ad on their website offering all who purchased items the difference from the actual regular price and the alleged inflated price.

3. Appoint one or two of us to meet with the management and determine the facts and find out what they voluntarily plan to do about it.

4. Contact, email or phone and ask them to comment on the allegations.

Although I did not make any purchases at that time, I vote for 3.

[vertex]

Why don't you people just send a message(or letter) to J&L to let them know how you feel. There's a lot to be said about honesty so tell em you still support em but don't appreciate seeing what you're seeing and would rather have them list the "true" discount or explain the price increase.

No sense causing trouble for a good supplier, but a few letters or complaints directly from purchasers might prevent this from happening again!

If you don't do anything, you are asking for it to happen again! At least let them know directly.

[Tarolisol]

I feel that if it was Big Als doing this everyone of you would be fuming, why should we not judge JL with the same critizism we hold for others. Its wrong for any company to do what they did regardless of there everyday low prices.

[AndyL]

Big als had done the same thing - though less conspicuously... Several people noted livestock which was 5-10$ above the "normal" price (the price we regularly see them at, and bought them the week before at). Of course last year when this topic came up (not sure if it was here or on AA), it was said there were above average deaths, transportation costs were higher than expected yadda yadda yadda. So I'd expect that would be the same answer this time around.

Andy

[Mike Olson]

Not to mention that Big Als is ALWAYS 30% or more above JL's regular pricing...Even though there might of been some discrepancies, I found no discrpancies in the inverts and livestock pricing...I saved between 15-20% on a little over $200...Big Als I would have spent over $300 to get what I did.

[reeferaddict]

I would like to know where people get off saying this is "illegal".... Let's clear this up once and for all... as a retailer, (not at all related to the aquarium industry), I advertise that I have product "A" on sale for $199.99... the only thing "illegal" I could do would be to sell that product for more than advertised on the date of the "sale"... I can limit quantities... ie, "4 only, first come first served - no phone orders" or something like that... but that's it. When it comes to this Boxing Day sale... there were no advanced advertising of specific pricing as far as I know... correct me please if I am wrong. For a retailer to have a price increase THEN a discount advertised is not in any way, shape or form "illegal"... call it what you want, but it is definitely legal.

[Veng68]

Another thing about retailing......... if an item is priced lower by accident.......... they don't have to honor that price by law (although most do to please the customer, then quickly change the price back to the correct price).

not really on topic but I remember when I used to work retail...... many people would get upset about that.

Cheers,
Vic[veng68]

[naesco]

I would like to know where people get off saying this is "illegal".... Let's clear this up once and for all... as a retailer, (not at all related to the aquarium industry), I advertise that I have product "A" on sale for $199.99... the only thing "illegal" I could do would be to sell that product for more than advertised on the date of the "sale"... I can limit quantities... ie, "4 only, first come first served - no phone orders" or something like that... but that's it. When it comes to this Boxing Day sale... there were no advanced advertising of specific pricing as far as I know... correct me please if I am wrong. For a retailer to have a price increase THEN a discount advertised is not in any way, shape or form "illegal"... call it what you want, but it is definitely legal.

What do you call it, Reeferaddict?

[StirCrazy]

2. Call the Consumer Protection people to investigate the allegations. If the allegations are found to be true they would probably be required to place a prominent ad on their website offering all who purchased items the difference from the actual regular price and the alleged inflated price.

3. Appoint one or two of us to meet with the management and determine the facts and find out what they voluntarily plan to do about it.

Although I did not make any purchases at that time, I vote for 3.

won't do any good anyways, look at Canadian tire, they have been doing it with there tires for years and nothing has ever been done about it.. it has even been on the news. I can't remember why they are getting away with it but there was a reason because of Canadian business law and a loophole or something.

now another thing to be watchful for is the price increase was surprisingly close to the time Canada raised the prime rate. so this will increase to a cost raise in smaller stores that cannot adsorb it. so if this was a regular price increase right before the sale then they have not done anything wrong.

Steve

[Dolf]

I am not certain if it is an Alberta law or if it is the same around all of Canada. Here in Alberta (for sure) a retailer must have sold the item at what they advertise as their “regular price” in the last month. I have seen companies charged (I specifically remember a store that is a member of the Forzani group.) I am not suggesting that they charge J&L- if their prices are good I guess no reason not to buy from them, but it is misleading.

[Chin_Lee]

Just got the following Newsletter from JL's explaning their price fluctuations. Hopefully the explanation suffices to make everybody enjoy the holiday season a little more.

New Pricing Structure:

As most of you should be aware, we implemented a new computer system in-store and online about four months ago. This enables us to
link pricing and inventory with our retail and online location. It also allows us to change prices/discounts very rapidly with no
wasted time. What took days before, now only takes a matter of minutes.

What our in store customers know that was not posted online was that we took our base retail price and lowered it by 5% across the
board for all dry goods bought in US dollars. This was (and is) due to the fact of the highly volatile Canadian Dollar. By setting a
base retail price, we can adjust our pricing level accordingly to what the dollar does without actually doing a “store-wide price
change” which will still take MANY hours (days).

We did not post this online as we didn’t want to make a big deal of it in case the dollar drops/rises or whatever the case. The base
retail price will remain, and what will be displayed online is our adjusted retail price (the price you pay). All sale
prices/discounts will be calculated on our set retail price until there is some stability in the Canadian Dollar. We will continue
to operate in this manner for the foreseeable future as we feel it gives our customers the best service and most up-to-date,
competitive pricing available anywhere.

We hope that this clears the air on some issues some of you may have had, and explains why and what we did.

[muck]

I got it too Chin, but thanks for posting it for those who might not have received it. Just means everyone has been enjoying a 5% discount on US items for the past 4 months..

Cheers :x-mas:

[reeferaddict]

What do you call it, Reeferaddict?

I call it staying in business... remember, retailers reserve the right to provide goods/services to anyone. period. Consumers also have the right to choose where they shop.

I see no problem with this... tell me where they promised ANY discount off a previously advertised price and I will have a problem with it...

[Xtasia]

Why is this such a huge surprise? Grocery stores like SUPERSTORE, SAVEON, IGA and SAFEWAY all do it.

If you dont' believe they do.. you don't spend enough time grocery shopping haha!

It's all about perceived discount. You still get a big discount (ernough that the change could pay for a lunch out..ya?!) but percentage wise it's less. In the grand scheme of things.. It's what you are willing to pay and how much they can sell it to you without going out of business.

Choices. Choices!

[fakename]

Reeferaddict: The problem is that their website offers a percentage based discount on boxing-day, but the percentages are being calculated from an artificially elevated price that J&L NEVER sells it's product for.
It sounds like J&L's logic is that everything in their store is always on 5% sale because the canadian dollar has gone up........
I'm not sure of the rules in BC......in Ontario retailers cannot claim that a price they offer everyday is a sale price.

So if J&L offered (and advertised) a 10% discount on product X, with an everyday price of $100, the expected price would be $90. However, if you assume that the price at $100 has already been reduced by 5%, then the "real" price is $105.26. A 10% reduction in that price gives a final price of $94.73.

So expecting a 10% discount on a $100 item, you only actually get a 4.27% discount from what they sell it for everyday.

I don't think the argument here is about whether or not J&L has good prices (they do), or if they are allowed to sell their products for what they want to (they are). The real issue is that a lot of people on the board, many good customers of J&L, feel that the store was dishonest.

While the laws around this issue may or may not permit it, it is certainly never a good business stratagy to alienate your customer base. I hope that J&L knows that people are upset, it's important to their business that they do. Businesses that don't care what their customers think, or don't care if they upset good customers soon find themselves having going out of business sales.

Aaron

[BCOrchidGuy]

The sad truth is that many places do sell stuff at an elevated then reduced price on boxing day. I have seen this at many many places. The only TRUE deal will always be on clearance or door crasher items, IE of all places Big Al's has a 120H for $199, I believe it's a 5 foot long tank. They also have 10 gallon tanks for $7.99 maybe $6.99 but I think it's $7.99. Yes it's a perfecto but if anyone wants a good deal on a tank to make into a sump or refugium for their nano it's a good deal. I think it's a damn steal on the 120 but most of the other stuff there is priced way to high.
Anyone here who knows me knows where I prefer to shop and to avoid a bunch of flames about the one store I'll just say I believe I always get the best deal there on my stuff. I can't afford Tunze powerheads, I still go to J&L's from time to time and I've never been dissapointed by their prices and only had one bad experience with their live stock and if I had followed MY OWN advice and the advice of many others here and used a QT tank my bad experience would have been just a bit of a bummer rather than a horror, that was my fault not theirs and I know it.
I don't agree with the BS of bumping up prices so the sale looks better, yes the dollar moves up and down but it does that daily so if that is their only reason for adjusting prices they should be adjusting them daily. ALSO!!!! if they purchase something on Dec 15, 2005 and the dollar is good and strong then on Dec 20 the item that came in on the Dec 15th purchase should be priced accordingly. Doing the pricing this way would be a logistical nightmare
with prices on some items being a few percentage points higher than identical items from the same vendor. Customers would be demanding prices be adjusted accordingly so it would end up being a waste of time anyway.
I myself would go to the store and argue for the discount advertised, according to their pre boxing day price. If I got satisfaction great, if I didn't I would be clear with them that I am not pleased.
All in all J&L is one of the best stores around, my own personal belief is that they should have stayed in the store on Austin, up by Blue Mtn. I think they had the world by the tail there, either that or they should have stayed mail order out of the basement. The new store must be a burden on them, about 2 years ago I went in and they all looked exausted, completely and utterly exausted. It's my understanding that they sold the store or part of it and then it was purchased back or something, I really do wish them the best of luck. The origonal owners were very good people, very easy to talk to and when there was something I said taken out of context a quick visit to the store and a talk and they were very very understanding. I even helped one of them get started in orchids with a gift of an orchid and a book.
We need LFS stores like this to help keep our market competitive, I think we are spoiled in a lot of ways, our prices are low because the stores are trying to compete on price point. Store A tries to compete with store B's prices on dry goods and equipent, maybe store A has a better selection of livestock though but they won't stay in business if that's all they sell or if they try to keep their customer base happy with just good livestock but sell everything at suggested retail price. Lets not forget they are just a fish store, some of the other stores they compete against sell dog food, cat food, birds, cages etc, etc. Supporting a store like J&L helps us have the prices we do, I know for a fact that the stores in Seattle are all priced way above what we would pay for livestock, the fish we pay $39 for here would go for close to $100 there just because they wont compete the way our stores do.
Anyway, I've been gone for just over two years, the board has changed, lots of new names, my life has seen some huge changes, I'll find some time later to catch up with everyone, in the mean time, best of the season, and a Happy New year to everyone.

Doug

[j83]

Reeferaddict:

I don't think the argument here is about whether or not J&L has good prices (they do), or if they are allowed to sell their products for what they want to (they are). The real issue is that a lot of people on the board, many good customers of J&L, feel that the store was dishonest.

Aaron


I think Aaron says it best here. I will continue to support J&L, their prices are great and so is there service it just ****ed me off with what they did on boxing day. Just be honest and call it as it is. If your only gonna take 5% off your regular prices then call that.

[dunl]

And that's really just it. Of course they have great prices, and everyone here will agree with that.

But marking it up just to make your discount look better is dishonest. It's not as much of a deal as they are trying to advertise it as.

Plus yes, it's illegal to raise prices and mislead customers(but at no point in time am I making a claim that J&L didn't follow proper law - I'm not a lawyer, and don't know all the fine print on these things):

The Forzani Group

Date: 2004-07-06
Event: Consent Agreement
Court: Competition Tribunal
Court File Number: CT-2004-010
Parties: The Forzani Group Ltd.
Provisions: 74.01(2) and (3) of the Competition Act - Ordinary Price: suppliers generally and supplier's own

Summary:On July 6, 2004, the Commissioner of Competition and The Forzani Group Ltd. filed a consent agreement with the Competition Tribunal addressing the Commissioner's concerns under the Ordinary Price provisions of the Competition Act.

The agreement stemmed from a Competition Bureau investigation regarding concerns that The Forzani Group Ltd. had overstated the regular selling prices of certain products at its Sport Chek and Sport Mart stores.

The Act requires that one of the two following tests are met when setting a regular selling price:

either a substantial volume of the product was sold at that price or a higher price within a reasonable period of time before or after the making of the representation (volume test); or

the product was offered for sale, in good faith, at that price or a higher price for a substantial period of time recently before or immediately after the making of the representation (time test).
Under the terms of the agreement, The Forzani Group Ltd., which operates 217 corporate stores under the banners of Sport Chek, Sport Mart and Coast Mountain Sports and 174 franchise stores under the banners of Sports Experts, Intersport, RnR, Atmosphere, Econosports and Tech Shop, has agreed to:

ensure that all of its future savings claims and regular selling price representations comply with the misleading advertising provisions of the Act;

implement a corporate compliance program designed to ensure compliance with the Act;

publish corrective notices in newspapers across Canada, in Sport Chek and Sport Mart flyers, on its corporate Web sites and its retail stores across Canada; and

pay an administrative monetary penalty in the amount of $1,200,000, along with the Bureau's costs for its investigation in the amount of $500,000.
The agreement will remain in force for 10 years.

http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/internet/index.cfm?itemid=1182&lg=e

So yeah, it's not a legal thing in Canada.

[reeferaddict]

OK... I actually spoke to someone at J&L about this today as I was looking into my own item - Calcium monitor. Around summertime they were $319... then $309... then finally $293... In the summer, J&L, (as stated in the newsletter), discounted ACROSS the BOARD 5% to reflect the recent strength in the Canadian dollar. This discount isn't remarked, (as it is in the store), rather just reflected on the final price we pay as a percentage of the RETAIL price. Problem is we don't see that online... it is just given to us. So 95% of $309 is $293... the boxing day sale is also based on the $309 as well... call it what you will, maybe poor communication or what have you... but it is legal... and taken in the light it was explained to me about how their POS system works, I perfectly understand it and have no problem with the ethics. They are very frustrated right now, and I pity their position as this has obviously been a big headache to them... one option is to leave the prices at the full retail rate and just have sale discounts from those prices, but we would be giving up that US dollar 5% that we now get to enjoy every day...

There was no frilly announcement for the 5% originally given, and did any of us complain? :razz: Didn't think so... :wink: And kudos to them for actually taking the time to call me and settle this. I can only imagine how busy they must be right now...:biggrin:

[RonPeter]

The thing I find funny was the items I marked the prices down before the sale were at one price, sale comes on and the retail price is higher and now I just checked their website again and all my items are back down to the price they were on Dec 25 when I made my list...that excuse doesn't make sense to me BUT sometimes I am slow to figure things out. I will still deal with them as they have excellent prices but it just doesn't smell right...to me anyways.

[Willow]

woo good thing my bulbs were sold out and i got a rain check. now i will get a better price on them.

[dunl]

Free bump for a good discussion.

[Richy44]

Bumper again!

[EmilyB]

Hey why is it when other LFS are talked about on Canreef the thread is pulled, but when it's J&L fire away. Just a comment not a criticism


Now isn't that the truth.

[midgetwaiter]

2 things strike me as interesting about this.

Some of us are again willing to jump all over somebody before finding out the facts. Seems to me like J&L are very willing to discuss this, it was in the bloody newsletter even. They certainly went out of their way to talk to reeferadict about it. You can debate the merits of their explanation, given my few years experience in a similar operation it seems to make some sense. At least we get some of that discussion but the usual pot stirrers (Wayne, Darcy) have to stick their noses in and turn it into a big production.

The other thing, and this is pretty disappointing, is the way people are willing to give them a pass on something like this if it saves a buck. If they were really behaving this way (I don't think that they are) would so many of us really shrug it off and buy from them anyway just to save $50 the next time? I don't know about the rest of you but if I feel somebody is treating me badly I'm not going to give them a pass just because it saves me a little money. Pretty sad that they could get away with anything just because they're cheaper.

[Pan]

i think everyone needs some red and green cocaine...

[Dave C]

I've never seen so many complaints about already cheap prices being marked down even lower. J&L is the cheapest source of most reef stuff in Canada. After those markdowns they were even cheaper. Were they 10% less then before? Dunno. Still the cheapest in the country so it's all good IMO. Luckily no one is forced to shop there & save money.