Whats happening to my corals?

[michika]

Since upgrading to a larger tank in the beginning of September I have lost a total of 8 colonies and medium sized frags. I've also probably lost at least 7 small frags since upgrading.

Parameters have always been and continue to be
Temp 78
SG 1.025-1.026
Alk 8dkH
Ca 440ppm
Nitrate 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Ammonia 0ppm
Phosphates 0.5 mg/L

We run 1x 400w 20k MH for approx 6-9 hours a day, supplimented with actinics, and 10k T5s. Tank is 77g with 75g sump/refugium. 70lbs live rock in the display tank, 5lbs in the refugium.

livestock; Lemonpeel angel, 2 blue chromis, 2 yellow chromis, lunar wrasse, regal tang, 2 tomato clowns, 1 ocellaris, signapore angel, sleeper goby, sixline wrassee, psychadelic mandarin, 1 red fromia star, 1 sand sifter, and a cleaning crew of snails, and hermits.

Corals: Frogspawn, elkhorn, zoos, cactus coral, 2 sun corals black and orange, 1 crocea clam, 1 dersa clam, neon green candy cane, and an assortment of SPS. Only my acropora seem to ever be affected. Usually whats happening is they RTN whenever I seem not to be home.

This morning something ate my clam from the bottom up, cut him free from his rock at the top of his tank, tossed him to the sandbed and ate him from the bottom up.

I am at my wits end on what to do. Everything seems fine except for my corals. Fish are all eating like piglets, water has been testing normal. I've been doing water changes bi-weekly about 10g every time. I top off with RO/DI water too. I'm also running carbon constantly, but it doesn't appear anything is making a difference.

I'm hoping to add more rock in the near future, and we'll be setting up a second 400w MH bulb this evening to complete our lighting set up. I can't even think what might be doing this, or why its happening. Please help!

[Pegasus]

As far as the clam goes, my money is on the angels.

As far as the corals go, well what can I say. My experience with Acros is that they are very sensitive animals and may not liked how they where transfered.

If I read your post right, your adding another 440 w MH to a 77 gal tank? Won't that make more than 11 w per gallon? I don't know how you are going to do this but hopefully gradually? Some say that this may be too much light.

Hope this helps

Larry

[michika]

They transfered fine. The problems didn't start until about two or three weeks after the upgrade. I doubt its the angels, as the lemon peel I've had longer then I've had corals, and the signapore has never been seen to nip or even look at my corals.

In the old tank I had 400w on a 46g, and my corals thrived. The length and depth of the tank that I have now requires 2 400w to get sufficient lighting throughout the tank. I do plan acclamate my corals slowly to the new lighting.

This is the first time in well over a year that I've had coral loss for any reason. Its just such a mystery to me.

Any ideas on chemical causes?

[Pegasus]

It's not uncommon for Angels to change their habits. You did after all change their environment and surroundings.

As far a chemical causes go, no sorry I don't. Just know that Acros can be finicky.

I assume that you transfered all the old water from the old tank therefore the addition of the new top up water shouldn't have caused that tank to recycle.
Then again...? Any amount of a spike, no matter how small, might have been enough to kill the more sensitive corals.


Larry

[michika]

Sadly there was no spike that I found, and I test once or twice a week. I've watched my tank for hours since the initial change over and I haven't seen anything from the angels that ressemble picking at the corals.

I just can't think of anything that could have caused it. There is no constant between situations as to why they are dying off. I haven't added new rock or anything that could contain hitchhikers. The only thing that has really changed is that I stopped dosing liquid reactor at night.

[vanreefer]

try checking your Ph at night... as the lack of liquid reactor at night may have changed the Ph at night...
Are there any Red Bugs on the acros?... this could be an explanation of why it is only the acros that seem to be effected :idea:

Just chucking out ideas
HTH
Dan

[michika]

The only acro that I had, which had the bugs died due to RTN almost two weeks ago. I haven't seen any bugs since. 1 coral died after the colony with the bugs was introduced, and all the ones prior, died before it was even in my system.

I do have more liquid reactor. Should I not dose tonight, test the pH and go from there. Or start with the liquid reactor again tonight?

[monza]

It might be a dumb question but whats liquid reactor?
Also as Pegasus asked, when you transfered did you use the same water or new?
Dave

[vanreefer]

I would probably check it tonight before dosing reactor and see if it's out of whack or if there is a big gap between the daytime reading and the night time one... as with everything stability is the key.
I run a lighted sump at night to reverse the Ph effect

[Funky_Fish14]

What is your daytime pH?

I cant think of anything else to add, what was suggested all does make sense. I do hope you can find the source of this problem soon!

Chris

[michika]

Same water was used. The day we switched everything over, we had to add about 20g to the display tank. A week and a half or so later we added another 30g, and then over time we added another 10g a week, until we've reached the volume we have now.

Liquid reactor is a suppliment ment to do the same thing as a calcium reactor. Its a milky white liquid that you dose in your tank at night. Makes a big difference for some, and no or little difference for others. Other people believe its just the same as Aragamilk (sp?), but packaged under a different name. Overall it just helps with your calcium levels, but it does, I found, tend ot make stag horns brittle.

Chris, daytime pH is 8.2. I hope I find it soon, before I get fed up and sell off my whole system.

I couldn't test last night. I'm going to test tonight though. Dependinig on the results I may run a light sump at night, but I'm not sure if that would interfere with dosing Liquid Reactor. Any thoughts Vanreefer?

[AndyL]

livestock;
singapore angel


Here's your problem... Singapore angels are notoriously non-reef-safe. They are hard to get eating to begin with, but when they do - anything is fair game.

There are reports on RC of them eating clams, as well as just about any other polyps they can get their mouths around (or rip into).

Andy

[michika]

The singapore angel has never touched anything in my tank. This RTN business began before the angel was in the tank. The angel didn't touch the clam either. I've watched my tank for many many many hours, and non of my fish touch my corals or clams. Only my tang goes near one particular clam because it likes the algae on one half of its shell.

The running theory about the clam death is that it got dislodged somehow. While it was in the sand my sandsifter star ate it from the bottom up. The star was right NEXT to the clam both times when we'd noticed it had fallen. It was also found beside it when I picked it up yesterday evening and discovered its innards eaten out. I think my other two clams are safe because they are up high enough that the sandsifter can't get to them.

I'm pretty sure its a chemical issue, or sps coral type virus. I wish it was even something simple like redbugs, but I haven't seen any bugs. What happens to the corals is that they are fine when I leave the house, and then when I come back their flesh has peeled away to reveal either green or white skeletons.

If a fish was picking at my corals wouldn't they be going after to polyps persay? All my corals have had their regular polyp extention at the time I last see them, and then they are just gone when I come back. I don't even see the skin flap off either, and its a VERY quick process, within about 3 hours.

Say a fish was picking at my corals, what type of damage or abbrasions would I be seeing?

[Beverly]

Sorry, I don't have any idea what's eating your corals :sad:

When testing water chemistry, remember to test and adjust magnesium. It's as important to keep tabs on as are alk and Ca.

[saltynuts]

if an angle is picking at an sps you will see.
color fade
very little polyp

ask harv. his angle is doing it right now.(if i remember right)
he can tell you what it looks like.( i think)

[geopod]

Wow Kath, and Kev I feel for you guys. I hope things turn around for you very soon. And I hope it doesnt discourage you guys from getting out of the hobby.I know when I lose stuff I get discouraged but I toughen up and hang on and hope better and things eventually turn around.I really hope you guys find the source. If you guys need any help with anything let me know.

george

[rusty]

Catherine where did you tank come from? Was it new? was the silicone redone? If it was used did the prevous owner use copper in the tank? I am thinking that if the water is fine maybe something is leaching in that the acros don't like. Just a thought.

[saltynuts]

tank was new 77 gal used as salt water only but it was not drilled.
i had a hang on overflow on it.kevin did all the drilling and overflow on it.
what was the glass used for. the stuff you got from sleeman.

[muck]

Was it a DIY sump? If so which silicone did you use?

[michika]

Silicone was the good stuff. 100% pure silicone, no anti-mildew or anti-fungles.

We used the same stuff in our old set up, and nothing happened.

I'm just at such a loss right now. I'm getting really bummed out when I come home to find another coral has RTNed.

[Ruth]

Just a thought but have you tried taking a water sample to one of the LFS or a friend just to double check that your test kits are reading correctly? If it is an option can you move your corals to another tank (friend or spare) until you figure out what is going on? I know that one time I had a problem with some of my SPS and it turned out (I think) to be that one of my heater was leaching current into my tank from a loose wire on the connection. It was a very tiny amount but just enough to feel and I had 3 coral RTN before I took it out. Like I say - I'm not sure that was it but the RTN stopped when I removed the heater.

[vanreefer]

Same water was used. The day we switched everything over, we had to add about 20g to the display tank. A week and a half or so later we added another 30g, and then over time we added another 10g a week, until we've reached the volume we have now.

Chris, daytime pH is 8.2. I hope I find it soon, before I get fed up and sell off my whole system.

I couldn't test last night. I'm going to test tonight though. Dependinig on the results I may run a light sump at night, but I'm not sure if that would interfere with dosing Liquid Reactor. Any thoughts Vanreefer?

I used liquid reactor with a lit sump without problem..

Do I understand correctly that you slowly filled the tank over a period of weeks? were the halides on during the weeks it took to fill the tank? Just a thought that possibly the corals were damaged (burnt) during this time... probably not tho.

What happens to the corals is that they are fine when I leave the house, and then when I come back their flesh has peeled away to reveal either green or white skeletons.

Green skeletons to me would mean that the coral tissue has been dead for some time and algea has had the oppurtunity to grow on the skeleton this would be a STN situation... do you notice a recession of tissue at the base of any of these corals before they lose thier tissue?... I am just thinking out loud here if anyone has more knowledge than I please chime in

What was your Ph tonight?
Did you add liquid reactor? if so what was your Ph 1 hour after?
Your sure their are no red bugs? once these little bast#rds get into a system they are usually there to stay?

hope you get this problem figured out soon :mrgreen:
Dan

[michika]

I find that for some corals, the color is a dark green when they rtn and others are white. It seems that acropora mostly from bali for me always turn green when they die. Mind you I've only ever had two instances where this has happened.

They look like this http://www.canreef.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2470&size=big&password=&sort=1&cat=504. (Sorry I can't "right click" to get the appropriate photo info on my mac.) For me its only been the Bali acros that are purple with blue tips that have this coloring underneath. In this particular picture the RTN happened over night, so I'm very sure that it isn't an algae growth.

pH went down a bit, lowest point was at 7.9 for the evening.

I've been watching and watching for red bugs, but can't see anything. I am going to be treating my corals shortly regardless. I only ever saw them on one coral before it RTNed and I haven't seen them since.

Tonight I'm going to start back with liquid reactor, and hopefully that should start to get things back on track.

The more I think about the situation the more I think its chemically related. None of my fish or invertebrates are suffering in any way I can see. All my soft corals are growing like weeds, and clam death aside (as I believe it was just a bad coincidence), things seem to be flourishing.

Everything seems to be fine until something begins to RTN, once it begins, that particular coral is gone before anything can be done. And since nobody knowns what triggers RTN, I, as I'm sure many others have, feel helpless.

Focusing on the RTN as a result of a water quality issue then seems to be the next logical step. My corals are getting enough light, they are actually recieving about 2 hours less per day of MH exposure then they were a couple of months ago. We regularly correct our dKH, probably about every other week. Calcium is above where it should be so we've stopped dosing for the time being. We started to begin to drip Kalk, but tapered that off until we can find out the cause of this issue. I feel spriulina, frozen mysis, krill, and formula-1 pellets. I do wash the frozen foods before feeding them as well.

What about if electricity was leaking into the tank? Perhaps at such a low level that it doesn't bother the fish?

[muck]

I find that for some corals, the color is a dark green when they rtn and others are white. It seems that acropora mostly from bali for me always turn green when they die. Mind you I've only ever had two instances where this has happened.

They look like this http://www.canreef.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2470&size=big&password=&sort=1&cat=504.

http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/504/1371PICT0009.JPG

[Chad]

I've read this many times and seen it a few, so I will try and explain from my limited experience.

When an acro / sps starts to RTN, often it becomes a tank event. With no real explination. Your best course of action is to frag the RTN'ing coral as soon as you notice and get the dieing tissue out of the tank. Also you want to frag deep into good tissue, not just at the edge of the RTN.

So, perhaps one coral RTN'd in the begining, and now has cause the tank wide event.

Just my 2 cents.

[mr_alberta]

Green skeletons usually indicate phosphates in the water as the coral absorbs it while it builds skeleton (or so I've read). I don't think phosphates are the problem though.

[michika]

That particular picture is from January or February of last year I believe.

Thank you Ryan for fixing the picture!

Chat, I would frag them if I could, but it just seems to happen so fast that I can't even catch it happening in the process.

Knock on wood, but I think whatever is happening is stabilizing. I haven't had any problems since Friday evening.

Ironically the only corals that have RTNed green like the picture, came from a certain LFS back before I stopped shopping there.