HI, need advice

[sharelove]

Hi, I am completely new to this and there is no one at this time with whom I can connect in person here in Nelson that has experience and time and can share knowledge :-(
The good side to the internet is I can connect with all you wonderful people from all over the world! Please feel free to post your thoughts to my newbie questions!
Firstly, I should tell you what I have and where i'm going with it: I have a 90gal or 339Liter glass tank. I've bought a FF (foam fractionator) a few powerheads, a jebo canister filter, a couple of very good beginner books and other paraphenalia. I introduced 70lbs/32kgs of live uncured rock from Tonga. I just put the rock in a week ago. I've got nothing else in there now. I will be adding sand and live sand, and then I would like to start adding FISH!! and a cleaner crew - hermit crabs, snails etc...
So what I would like to know is, at this point, I just took my first readings re: tests, and my results seem low to me. I should mention that I have done some water changes in order to get my salinity correct. For the first part of the week it was a bit low around .014 -.017 but now i've dialed it in at around .021-.022 (getting used to using the cheap plastic "deep six" hydrometer...)
Ammonia >0.2
Nitrite >0.1
Nitrate >10
Ph between 7.8 & 7.9

What do you all think? am I doing OK? Is my rock gonna die!!!???

:-)

thanks again for your patience and hearing me out. I look forward to participating as I get better at this!
cheers,
marc

[OCDP]

Welcome to Canreef :smile:

So, right to the point .... your rock will not die. Do you have any light over your tank? You should try to boost your salinity up to about 1.024 for now, maybe 1.025. Boost it up a point a day , (is the general rule) But you don't have any livestock in there so I would think you could boost it two points a day or something.

Seeing as the live rock is uncured, your paramaters seem to be fairly good for using uncured rock. Do not add anything to your tank until ammonia, and nitrite are 0. Nitrate should be as close to zero as possible.

Right now the best thing for you to do is wait out the cycle.. your tank may have not spiked yet (paramaters go sky high, then back down) You want to make sure your ammonia and nitrites are as darn close to zero as you can get them (water changes) .. etc.. Do a lot of reading, here on Canreef, ask any question you may have as this will be greatly beneficial to yourself and your tank. When starting out , it's normal to have a bizillion questions, so fire away..there's lots of people here that can help.

[michika]

I think from what I'm reading your cycle is begining!

Welcome to the board!

[christyf5]

First off, welcome to Canreef!!! :cool:

You're doing fine. :biggrin: Your rock isn't going to die. Right now your tank is just cycling and the bacterial populations are growing in order to deal with the levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate in your tank. Once cycling is complete, you should see all 3 levels go to zero. At this point you can start adding your cleanup crew and fish. Go slowly with the fish. Remember that each fish you add will be producing waste and will mess with those ammonia levels and the bacterial populations will need time to reduce them to nitrite and nitrate.

I would give the rock at least another 2-3 weeks, if not more (keep an eye on those parameters) to cycle before you start adding stuff.

Christy :)

[Beverly]

Welcome to Canreef :smilecol:

Here is my webpage on curing live rock....

http://www.lostmymarblz.com/reeftips-curingliverock.htm

[sharelove]

should I be adding the sand now? or is it best to wait until the rock has cycled. I was told that it should go in right away that way it will become live too like the rock. I bought 3 bags of caribsea's aragamax select and one bag of fiji pink live sand.
thanks,
marc

[Bob I]

Add it right now so that it too will become live. :mrgreen:

[Beverly]

I'd wait to add the sand until the rock has completely cycled. That way you can siphon out all the crud that comes off the rock which will settle to the bottom. Exporting that crud and doing a very large water change after cycling will, imo, reduce nuisance algae afterward.

[Ruth]

Also before you add the sand be sure to rinse it really well with RODI or change water or you will have a cloudy tank for a long time and all that dust will get into your pumps and filters.
Oh and welcome to Canreef - good to have another member.

[monza]

Maybe don't wash that "live sand" what ever that really is. But thats just a guess, if it's really alive you'll wash the life out of it.

Dave

[Johnny Reefer]

Bagged sand sold as "Live" really isn't.
It's just a marketing ploy.
If anything, sand sold as "Live" probably has dead stuff in it.
Go ahead and wash it.

Cheers,

[monza]

That makes perfect sense.
Dave

[WWWD]

Bagged sand sold as "Live" really isn't.
It's just a marketing ploy.
If anything, sand sold as "Live" probably has dead stuff in it.
Go ahead and wash it.

Cheers,

it has bactieria in it, helps with the cycle.

[hockey nut]

Hi and welcome,

I have a little cottage :mrgreen: in Balfour I visit twice a year when I can. I have Family in Balfour too.

How many pet/fish stores are around the area?

[Johnny Reefer]

Bagged sand sold as "Live" really isn't.
It's just a marketing ploy.
If anything, sand sold as "Live" probably has dead stuff in it.
Go ahead and wash it.

Cheers,

it has bactieria in it, helps with the cycle.

Sure it does.
And that product, "Cycle" supposedly has bacteria in it too. (Waste of money, that, IMO).
So how do ya figure that bacteria is fairin', all sealed up in a plastic bag, with no expiry date? :confused:

Check out pages 39 & 40 of "Reef Invertebrates", by Calfo & Fenner. Good spiel on packaged "Live" sand.

Cheers,

[christyf5]

Bagged sand sold as "Live" really isn't.
It's just a marketing ploy.
If anything, sand sold as "Live" probably has dead stuff in it.
Go ahead and wash it.

Cheers,

it has bactieria in it, helps with the cycle.

Sure it does.
And that product, "Cycle" supposedly has bacteria in it too. (Waste of money, that, IMO).
So how do ya figure that bacteria is fairin', all sealed up in a plastic bag, with no expiry date? :confused:

Check out pages 39 & 40 of "Reef Invertebrates", by Calfo & Fenner. Good spiel on packaged "Live" sand.

Cheers,

Actually the bacteria is held in chemical stasis and is activated by various environmental cues when added to the tank.

Ever heard of anthrax?? :rolleyes:

[Johnny Reefer]

Of course I've heard of anthrax, but I don't know details about it.
I'm no biologist or chemist and never claimed to be.
I'm just goin' by what I've read from the "experts".
I named my source, but that appears to be not enough.

To quote "....If we add some cultured bacteria to the sand and water mixture is that better? Perhaps. And how is it again that these living "power-stations" of microbial activity are remaining in stasis on a dealers shelf, in a sealed bag, without food, or climate control, no oxygenation, or expiration date on the bag?....." - Reef Invertebrates by Calfo and Fenner. Pages 39 & 40.

And I forgive the rolleyes.

Cheers,

(Edit: "...running in stasis..." should have read "...remaining in stasis..."

[WWWD]

don't rock the boat christy, clearly there is no such thing as anything packed "live" in a bag or a bottle.

[Johnny Reefer]

So if I am wrong, what am I missing? :confused:
What are Calfo & Fenner saying? :confused:
Am I misinterpreting their view?

Please and thanx,

And my apologies to sharelove for hijacking the thread.

Welcome to CanReef! :smile:

[sharelove]

HI, this is what Michael Paletta has to say in his book, "The New Marine Aquarium": As with other substrates, live sand should only be introduced after the live rock has been placed in the aquarium and fully cured. The ammonia overload form curing rock can kill delicate sand organisms."
So?

[christyf5]

Well here is MY opinion. My opinion is that that quote is Calfo and Fenners opinion on how it all works. In no way did they ever back up their claim with any scientific evidence. It just seems to me that they insinuate alot of things about it and then leave it hanging and you need to find out for youself? I dont' know if you posted the whole quote, I'll have to check the book out when I get home.

Some examples of other organisms that can live in stasis are, yeast, Clostridium botulinum (botulism toxin) Clostridium tetanae (tetanus toxin), kefir and one you should all recognize SEA MONKEYS :mrgreen: When they don't have a happy place to live, they just pack it in and wait for a better day. Heck half the bacteria I use at work are like that. Take away their oxygen and food, they just sit there hanging out. The other day I took a bacteria from 1985 out of "stasis" and its chugging away growing on the plate like its 1986! :razz:

If bacteria couldn't use stasis/spore forumulation as part of their life cycle we certainly wouldn't have such problems with them.

Quite frankly, I would rather use sand that came from someone elses tank but to buy a bag of live sand and then have someone suggest that I rinse it seems like a waste of money.

[christyf5]

HI, this is what Michael Paletta has to say in his book, "The New Marine Aquarium": As with other substrates, live sand should only be introduced after the live rock has been placed in the aquarium and fully cured. The ammonia overload form curing rock can kill delicate sand organisms."
So?

Hi Sharelove,

High ammonia can kill organisms in your tank. If you are adding dead sand the ammonia can't harm it though. The idea behind adding sand while you are curing is that you are conditioning both the sand and rock at the same time and "cycling" the sand at the same time as the rock.

Christy :)

[Johnny Reefer]

Well here is MY opinion. My opinion is that that quote is Calfo and Fenners opinion on how it all works. In no way did they ever back up their claim with any scientific evidence. It just seems to me that they insinuate alot of things about it and then leave it hanging and you need to find out for youself? I dont' know if you posted the whole quote, I'll have to check the book out when I get home.

Some examples of other organisms that can live in stasis are, yeast, Clostridium botulinum (botulism toxin) Clostridium tetanae (tetanus toxin), kefir and one you should all recognize SEA MONKEYS :mrgreen: When they don't have a happy place to live, they just pack it in and wait for a better day. Heck half the bacteria I use at work are like that. Take away their oxygen and food, they just sit there hanging out. The other day I took a bacteria from 1985 out of "stasis" and its chugging away growing on the plate like its 1986! :razz:

If bacteria couldn't use stasis/spore forumulation as part of their life cycle we certainly wouldn't have such problems with them.

Quite frankly, I would rather use sand that came from someone elses tank but to buy a bag of live sand and then have someone suggest that I rinse it seems like a waste of money.

Thanx Christy. That's all good enough for me and I stand corrected.
I will take what I read with a grain of salt, from now on.
BTW, no, it wasn't the whole quote.
And for the record, I hope I didn't give the impression that live bacteria couldn't be packaged or bottled. How it could stay live is what I was doubting.

As for my advice to sharelove to rinse your pink fiji live sand, bad advice. Sorry about that.

As for a waste of money, ya, it would be a waste of money to rinse that live sand, thus killing it off.

Having said all this, what's the point in paying the extra money for live sand in the first place, when the organisms introduced with LR will make inert sand live within two weeks or so?

Cheers,

[christyf5]

Having said all this, what's the point in paying the extra money for live sand in the first place, when the organisms introduced with LR will make inert sand live within two weeks or so?

Cheers,

Basically I think that is more part of the argument than the whole "it isn't really live" theory. Why buy it when you don't really need to?! But some people don't want to have to wait, by providing the bacteria that are needed to break down the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate you don't have to wait for bacterial populations to reproduce to a stage where they can handle (break down) high levels of "nutrients". You already have the population there and they break them down right away, thus increasing the speed of the cycle.

FWIW, I attempted to look up the bacteria used in both the Caribsea live sand, Hagen Cycle and Seachem Stablilty. All three just go on about having several types of heterotrophic and autotrophic bacteria which doesn't really tell us much.

Christy :)

[sharelove]

well I can say that, I bought only one bag of this stuff to add to the "dead" sand. So even if it doesn't make much difference, I'm out only 10lbs of sand...
:-)
all's good!
thanks you all for your lively discussion! it's informative and it's all about learning no matter your level of experience.
peace,
marc