View Full Version : Regarding GARLIC...
Xtasia
10-06-2005, 07:22 AM
This is a good link. Read it!
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/index.php
http://www.reefs.org/library/article/h_cortes-jorge.html
Indeed, much literature points towards topical application as being effective, and oral administration as futile. So why do we have numerous relations of success from hobbyists, after oral administration of garlic?
Here is a possible 'out'... or two:
Mastication by a fish cannot be so thorough as to deliver a fine garlic puree to the stomach (otherwise, many gut surveys in the field would be pointless), and thus stomach acids cannot thoroughly neutralize all enzyme before some allicin is synthesized. Garlic is at that point effective against at least gastrointestinal parasites and infections.
Although there may not be any real conclusive scientific data ....yet, the anecdotal evidence with regards to feeding fish allicin complex to rid them of internal parasites appears to be quite strong.
Pablo's take on all of this:
It helps to get rid of the intestinal worms and parasites on the fish. Some claim they got rid of ich by using Thera A formula, but I have experienced mixed results. It definitely helps. You can feed your fish with this formula all the time since there is no medication involved.
Keep in mind that some of the 'marine' species in the tank shown in the link below are 7 years old, and have been eating food containing garlic on a daily basis for that entire 7 years. http://forums.spectrumfishfood.com/viewtopic.php?t=66
While I can't comment on the safety factor involving other fish foods on the market, the garlic used in New Life Spectrum is very safe, even if fed daily, exclusively, over many years.
Does it cure marine ich? Perhaps not, but I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss its use entirely.
Xtasia
10-06-2005, 05:10 PM
Just read it... Selective copy and paste to prove a point is stupid.
bulletsworld
10-06-2005, 05:29 PM
Just read it... Selective copy and paste to prove a point is stupid.
I agree!
It's not a debate silly...he was just posting a link thinking others might wanta check out.
Although you know Sushilicious, Beverly has already bet you to it and already posted this article under this "Reef" forum. :mrgreen:
http://www.canreef.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19756
how many times is the garlic debate going to come up!? bottom line is.. people will have mixed results.. plain and simple. People will have mixed feelings about it as well... plain and simple. There obviously isn't solid proof that it works against parasites 100%.
by now most people should have a fairly good idea of how garlic works. You can try it.. but it may not work, on the other hand.. it may work. There are many important factors to consider when using garlic. How badly is the fish infected already? If it's already heavily infected or really sick.. chances are garlic won't do much for you. Again, lots of factors to consider IMO ..
If you want to try garlic, try it! if it works, it works.. if it doesn't .. well then, it doesn't . IME I found it did work... but then again, my fish only showed a couple specks of ick.. a few good feedings of mysis/flake and garlic and the spots are gone (and have NOT come back)
my .02
My bad, I didn't realize that this was a read only forum. :rolleyes:
The author of that article goes so far as to imply that garlic may even be 'unsafe' (gasp) yet offers no more proof than some of the studies he's quoting.
I simply wanted to clear that up.
Carry on .........
haha I didn't mean to make a fuss... there is just a lot of mixed reviews and opinions on garlic now a days... I used it for a while (and as we've read some people use it daily) .. I can't see any side effects of using garlic on my tank.. other than the fact that it stops my skimmer from producing any skimmate for a few hours.
No worries, I happen to agree with most of the article. The studies he quoted, and most of his comments were right on the mark. I simply didn't feel that anyone should be concerned with adding garlic to their fishes diet, in that it may cause health issues to their fish. Of course in massive mega doses it could possibly cause health issues in a fish, but so can vitamin A. Garlic has been used in fish food (commercial formulas as well as home made recipes) for many years, and I've yet to see a single shred of evidence that shows it causes any negative health issues, even when fed daily for several years.
albert_dao
10-06-2005, 11:00 PM
Do you think it affects the overall taste of the fish after grilling?
Do you think it affects the overall taste of the fish after grilling?
:rofl:
ha-ha-ha, good one Albert. :mrgreen:
Xtasia
10-07-2005, 12:43 AM
We are finding out all the time, that almost everything in moderation is good to some degree, but bad in excess.
Just because it was used in food does not neccessarily mean its acceptable or even advisable for consumption. Take for example Aspartame. It was FDA approved. Supposedly a healthier substitute for sugar, and Twenty years on the market has shown that aspartame is a deadly chemical poison that has probably caused more deaths than many wars.
Also there's the Echinicea debate...
http://my.webmd.com/content/article/42/1668_50864.htm - maybe.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=9892 - no
http://cms.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-19990301-000035.html - yes
Now I'm not saying Garlic is in the same boat but we should definitely take the garlic debate with a grain of salt. It's definitely refreshing to hear another side of the story.
<plugs ears and starts singing lalalalalalala>
It's not a debate silly...he was just posting a link thinking others might wanta check out.
It's definitely refreshing to hear another side of the story.
Then no reason we shouldn't hear both, right? :smile:
Debating is fine, when civilized. RD and I have disagreed on many points, but as far as I remember, we have remained civilized most of the time. :biggrin: (not implying anyone here wasn't isn't, or isn't planning to be in the future. :lol: )
reeferaddict
10-07-2005, 05:14 AM
I think the skepticism is because the reply from RD is from someone who stands to benefit from the sale of their products. While that may be the case, I could hardly believe that such products would be mass produced, marketed, and sold based solely on the hyperbole of hobbyists observations.
While the article could offer no conclusive proof of benefits, neither could it prove any harm - in the summary the author simply stated to use at your own risk. Personally I have used it, but have observed nothing either way in benefits or harm.
IMO a healthy dose of skepticism is a good thing, but not if it makes one become paranoid.
A few months ago I spoke with a professor at the University of Florida in the Dept of Fisheries & Aquatic Sciences, who specializes in dietary habits & nutritional disorders of fish. I was told that her dept had used New Life Spectrum (which contains garlic) "for years", as a control diet in their studies, as well as for newly arrived wild caught marine fish that are placed into quarantine, and that it "performs very well". I suspect that if they are using it for newly arrived, stressed out wild fish, they must consider it to be a very well balanced nutritional diet. The professor I spoke with deals directly with numerous marine species, has been involved in many marine fish studies over the years, and I suspect that she knows a tad bit more about the dietary requirements of fish, than the average hobbyist.
If she was at all concerned about the amount of garlic used in this food, she certainly failed to mention that fact to me.
Then again, perhaps I'm just making this all up, and the people in the link below don't even exist?
http://www.flseagrant.org/program_areas/aquaculture/publications/Histological_Atlas/index.htm
Cap'n
10-07-2005, 08:02 AM
It was FDA approved.
Yet one more example of a government organization's perception being far different than their intention.
Majestic_Aquariums
10-08-2005, 01:42 PM
I can attest to that-these two guy's can carry on a debate like no one's buisness, but both always have very valid evidence to back up their points-it's quite neat to see them go at it on the forums, (on a civil basis for sure) and then be able to sit down and have a beer as friends!
It's not a debate silly...he was just posting a link thinking others might wanta check out.
It's definitely refreshing to hear another side of the story.
Then no reason we shouldn't hear both, right? :smile:
Debating is fine, when civilized. RD and I have disagreed on many points, but as far as I remember, we have remained civilized most of the time. :biggrin: (not implying anyone here wasn't isn't, or isn't planning to be in the future. :lol: )
Just a side note, I quit drinking years ago. :mrgreen:
I also voluntarily removed my sig line, just so there's no confusion as to what my motives are/were for posting here.
That's right. As part of the oposing sides of the debate, RD usually does the cigarette smoking (non-garlic ones, if I remember), and I drink the beer. :lol:
Bob I
10-08-2005, 05:24 PM
Take for example Aspartame. It was FDA approved. Supposedly a healthier substitute for sugar, and Twenty years on the market has shown that aspartame is a deadly chemical poison that has probably caused more deaths than many wars.
Even though this has nothing to do with garlic, I would hate for misinformation to rear its ugly head :eek: Aspartame is still going strong as we speak. Perhaps the writer is thinking of Saccharin, or perhaps Sodium Cyclamate :question: , neither of which is a deadly chemical, but was pulled off the market due to a sugar lobby. Sodium Cyclamate was pulled off the market, but is now finding its way back in. Sugar Twin is Sodium Cyclamate BTW. In addition the FDA is American BTW. :biggrin:
reeferaddict
10-08-2005, 08:33 PM
FDA approved? For what? Since when does anything we feed our fish need to be FDA approved? :confused:
RD - don't remove your sig. :exclaim: We like knowing who you are & what you do... it lends credibility to your posts. Even though I insinuated you had something to gain by the sales of your products I also said that I doubted you would sell such products without doing your due diligence re: research & development. :confused:
"Aspartane killed more people than in many wars?" :rolleyes:
Which wars? Do you think for ONE second that if Aspartane could be linked as a direct cause to even a SINGLE human death that this "lethal" substance would be available every day to BILLIONS of people? I know not of a war where less than one person died...
Just one point to ponder here - results or not;
Just how would garlic get into a natural reef anyways? :mrgreen:
StirCrazy
10-08-2005, 10:33 PM
I was told that her dept had used New Life Spectrum (which contains garlic) "for years", as a control diet in their studies, as well as for newly arrived wild caught marine fish that are placed into quarantine, and that it "performs very well".
Ok, you guys all realize those studies did not cover commercial foods with garlic as an ingredient and even stated that the amount of garlic in commercial foods will most likely not be significant for anything other than a sales pitch. the way the garlic was administered in the tests was and extract given by inter muscular injections. I don't know about you guys but I don't feel like catching my fish every day and giving them a needle.
as for aspartame it is still a accepted sweetener that is suspected to be carcinogenic if taken in enuf quantity to feed a horse. so in other words it is not poisonous or dangerous well unless you had a severe allergy to it but then again peanuts would be illegal if that was the case.
Steve
Ok, you guys all realize those studies did not cover commercial foods with garlic as an ingredient and even stated that the amount of garlic in commercial foods will most likely not be significant for anything other than a sales pitch
I've yet to see a manufacturer of commercial food that contains garlic claim that it can cure Marine Ich. If anyone is, well, that would certainly be a stretch ....
Also, in the comment below the author of that article makes it sound as though the use of garlic in commercial foods is something relatively new, at least with NLS food it's anything but.
Various brands of fish food are now even promoting that they have added garlic to their recipes. And yet, none of these alleged benefits has ever been proven.
Garlic has been used in NLS from the very get go, and until the TherA formula was developed this fact was never even mentioned on the label.
Tested for over 10 years, and on the market for close to 8 years, with no negative effects seen in any species of fish fed this brand of food. As previously mentioned, some of the marine fish seen in the link showing Pablo's 2000 gallon marine tank are 7+ years old, and have been eating food containing garlic, every day, since they have been in captivity.
In fact, the only formula that NLS markets as an "anti-parasitic" formula is their TherA formula, which does contain a significant amount of the active ingredient found in garlic. (allicin complex) Allicin complex is the 4th ingredient listed on their TherA formula labels, with the same amount found in their flake foods, and with the flakes there is no mention of garlic, or it's potential as having any anti-parasitic properties, so in those formulas it's hardly a marketing ploy, or a sales pitch.
In my humble opinion the author has used a rather broad brush when referring to commercial manufacturers.
Also, there is in fact evidence that shows it does have anti parasitic properties, which the author of this very article has previously stated himself. http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php
At the very least, garlic does have some proven anti-bacterial, anti-fungal, anti-parasitic, and antiviral properties (Bartelme, 2003 and Cortes-Jorge, 2001). I included it here because this treatment has shown enough promise to warrant further scientific evaluation.
While garlic may not be a silver bullet, especially in regards to Marine Ich, it has been used for centuries for its anthelmintic properties. While the clinical trials using ornamental fish may be lacking, the anecdotal evidence is certainly strong enough to support the fact that in some cases, with certain parasites and/or worms, the active ingredient found in garlic does much more than add flavour to fish food.
Ok, you guys all realize those studies did not cover commercial foods with garlic as an ingredient and even stated that the amount of garlic in commercial foods will most likely not be significant for anything other than a sales pitch.
I suspect that the author of the original link posted in this thread might be eating a little crow now.
The subject of using garlic in fish food seems to come up quite often, with some hobbyists suggesting that the main reason that fish food manufacturers use this ingredient is strictly to enhance palatability of the food, or in some cases, as nothing more than a sales pitch.
In many cases this may be true, but this is certainly not true of all fish foods. The main reason for such a large inclusion rate in certain brand/s is due to garlics anti-parasitic qualities. When used in larger quantities, this raw ingredient can be expensive, hence the reason why many manufacturers skimp on the amount of garlic that they use.
Over the past decade there has been a number of studies involving garlic and fish food and the anecdotal evidence with regards to feeding fish allicin complex (the active ingredient in garlic) to rid them of parasites appeared to be quite strong. The following is a link to a more recent study that confirms what some people have been saying all along. http://www.scielo.br/pdf/jvatitd/v12n2/v12n2a03.pdf
A. M. Shalaby et al. EFFECTS OF GARLIC (Allium sativum) AND CHLORAMPHENICOL ON GROWTH PERFORMANCE, PHYSIOLOGICAL PARAMETERS AND SURVIVAL OF NILE TILAPIA (Oreochromis niloticus).
J. Venom. Anim. Toxins incl. Trop. Dis., 2006, 12, 2, p.196
In this particular study the inclusion of garlic powder at a rate of 3% has shown to increase the overall digestibilty of protein, carbohydrates, and fat, as well as to lower the total bacteria count within the intestine, muscles, as well as the tank water itself.
Being one to only use medication as a last resort, I find that garlic is a great preventative solution to keeping your fish (and water) free from outbreaks of various disease causing pathogens.
Sebae
12-25-2006, 07:09 AM
How come stores such as Big Al's don't sell the Ther A ?
I guess that you would have to ask BA's.
While the TherA formula contains a mega dose of garlic (Allium Sativum), the rest of the formulas all contain 3%.
BCOrchidGuy
12-25-2006, 09:23 PM
Bravo Bob I, Aspartame if I'm not mistaken was thought a safer sugar substitute than Sacharine. Aspartame is either derived from or contains ethanol (wood alcohol) and if taken in large amounts has and can cause a variety of side effects including, seizures, blindness, tremors, blurred vision etc. Some, not all, people who drink excessive amounts of diet drinks have been found to have liver damage that is very similar to alcohol abuse (long term). I once read a study from Johns Hopkins about Aspartame, a number of pilots were given the equivellent dose of two diet soda's but it was given IV... all but one or two pilots experienced side effects that caused them to be grounded (flight clearance was suspended) for different periods of time, one of the pilots never regained his sight.
Anyway, garlic is good, I've used it with fish and in cooking and in both cases it's been a good thing. Debate away folks, but keep it friendly and that way we all learn something new.
Doug
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