View Full Version : Oversize fish in undersize aquaria - opinions?
Hi,
I'm interested in people's opinons regarding keeping fish that grow very large (angels, tangs, triggers, boxfish) in small (<60g) aquaria, with the intention of passing them along to others or back to the LFS when they outgrow your reef.
Many of the most spectacular marine fish are out of reach of the hobbiest without the space or money for the larger tanks.
If you have kept such animals, which ones seemed best suited?
Regards,
Matthew
Heh, this will be a touchy subject for some people.. IMO, yes... if you without a doubt get rid of the fish before it outgrows your aquarium then I personally see no harm ... if the fish IS small.. and has lots of swimming space.. then it's ALMOST the same as putting an adult in a massive tank with lots of swimming space... haha that was put very bluntly but you get the idea.
Invigor
10-04-2005, 11:00 PM
The fish's life of luxery is over long before you buy it from the LFS anyways, so being a "humane" fishkeeper is an oxymoron if you ask me. Go on and argue with that point, but you cannot tell me you're doing any fish a favor by taking it out of the ocean and sticking it any size of glass box.
It doesn't matter if you have 1 regal tang in a 1000gallon tank, it's a far cry from the acre or two it's used to in the wild.
andresont
10-04-2005, 11:12 PM
The fish's life of luxery is over long before you buy it from the LFS anyways, so being a "humane" fishkeeper is an oxymoron if you ask me. Go on and argue with that point, but you cannot tell me you're doing any fish a favor by taking it out of the ocean and sticking it any size of glass box.
It doesn't matter if you have 1 regal tang in a 1000gallon tank, it's a far cry from the acre or two it's used to in the wild.
Totaly oximoron, i agree.
Xtasia
10-04-2005, 11:14 PM
OH the humanity. How do we sleep at night.
StirCrazy
10-04-2005, 11:43 PM
Matt, instead of relying on some one to take it when it gets big (which can be hard to do at times) why don't you concider some of the spetacular smaller fish like dwarf/pigmy angels and such.
I voted no because most people say they will buy a bigger tank when it needs it. You know what.. Most of the people who say this don't because they never intended to or found they can't afford to.
As for the argument presented above, think about it. Because we take it out of the ocean we can justify putting it a tiny tank because even a 1000gal tank is smaller than what it is used to??? Give your head a shake that is one of the most BS ideologies I have ever heard.
Yes we cannot give it what it is used to but we can give it at least enuf room to swim freely and such. There are ways to help in this, like having a very high current in a part of the tank so the fish actually has to work to swim into it and such but to simply try convince your self that because a 1000gal tank isn't as much room as it had in the wild so what difference would keeping it in a 20 gal tank make is totally irresponsible.
I personally don't buy fish according to their baby size; I look at fish that when they are full grown I will be able to give a reasonable home to. I am not a tang police and I think a lot of what the tang police say is bunk but yes there are limits to what I consider proper and sorry to say a 20 gal isn't proper for any tang.
Its amazing how these polls pop up once and a while from people trying to justify not buying a proper set up for the fish they want to keep.
:rolleyes:
Steve
Steve, no one said anything about keeping a tang in a 20g...
Beermaster
10-05-2005, 12:43 AM
WHat, i have a Tang in a 10gal, seem to like it just fine
lol okay just jokin lol
Jason McK
10-05-2005, 01:07 AM
OH the humanity. How do we sleep at night.
LOL :turn-l: :rofl: :scatter:
Petcrazy
10-05-2005, 02:15 AM
Oh man I know by just posting on this I'm just asking for hate mail LOL
Anyways, it's a yes and no answer.
Because it's all situational,
A) Do you have the funds and the actual intention on giving it a bigger home later on (then why not do it now?)
B) Do you actually have the CONTACTS, FRIENDS, and MEANS to find it a proper home later on...do you know interested parties (or at least a reputable fish store)?
C) How small are we talking here (both the tank and fish?)
EG
(A tang in a ten is unacceptable, meanwhile a baby in a 50-60 is fine for awhile).
Are the water conditions optimal and is the tank being properly maintained?
Does the fish seem stressed?
Is he behaving "naturally" (as possible in our setups)?
There are a lot of situational factors...but for those people who continuously buy these fish, throw them in small tanks and have them dying on them. only for them to just go out and replace it with something else that gets the same size or larger...Heck no. They should be smacked with a wiffle bat while the attacker says "No fish for you!" over and over again....at least until they get the point and are scared out of buying fish for the rest of their lives....-ahem- aaaanyways.
For the majority of us on canreef we are *hopefully* 'responsible' fish keepers. We take pride and care in what we keep; we don't wish to see harm, stress or illness ever come upon our fish. We also HAVE the means, the contacts, and plenty of interested parties who will take our fish off of our hands. We know plenty of people with BIG tanks for our prize fish to go into, or whom we could buy large tanks off of.
I could go on about this, but to me it all depends on the circumstances.
I don't see a problem with a friend of mines regal, he's small, in a good size tank and I know he's being pampers...but it's not RIDICULOUSLY small. But on the other hand, I know people with MULTIPLE tangs in tanks you could almost consider nanos and the tangs die all the time...(as well as other species of fish...)...they just buy and replace them then brag about their new fish. Those people...I want to smack with my wiffle bat...(oh hold on, I only have a wooden one...I guess it'll juuust have to work.)
You can call me eccentric or whatever you like, it doesn't matter. But having worked with fish for many years and lived with them nearly all of my life...I don't see any excuse for anyone to have a fish that wants tons of swimming room, gets excessively large in a ridiculously small tank. (I'm thinking extreme cases here) Particularly when they are fully aware of the needs of the fish.
With the numerous amounts of beautiful species out there, it isn't as if you can find something equally as appealing and beautiful that would be more appropriate for your setup.
And I speak from experience here. I HAVE a small tank and I've very easily worked within the limitations of my tank. How hard is it to look through fish profiles and find ones that can do well in our size tanks? At least be comfortable for a few years…seriously now folks.
If you are going to rip something out of the wild and keep it, at least take good care of it….that’s all I’ve got to say.
(Oh yeah, and it can depend on species..those who like to "just keep swimming"...grrr...the ones who are a stationary type and really couldn't give a rats behind other than water conditions...I don't mind as much)
reeferaddict
10-05-2005, 02:49 AM
Steve! - Valium! :lol:
I personally like the posts that allude to working with the tank you have. Stay within the limitations of the setup you are running - WHEN you upgrade - then get the different fish you want. I have 3 tanks running now, separated into a softie and stony environment, and I keep fish that will live as long and healthy life as possible under my care in those tanks... now I'm making room for MORE tanks.... :mrgreen:
A topic of strong opinions, no doubt! I'm becoming convinced that I shouldn't have bought that powder-blue tang for my nano... :wink:
Seriously, though, all the "minimums" are subjective and -- as stated -- all are considerably less than a natural habitat. It probably is an oxymoron to consider yourself a responsible reefer, although we all want to do our best not to be cruel. A bird in a cage, a fish in a tank, a dog in a kennel. All represent WAY less than ideal situations, but pet owners do all of that, with love and care. How small can the tank, kennel, cage be? How big, before we smile to ourselves and assure our consciences that we're the 'good' owners?
There's a note of truth in Steve's comment. I am a bit interested in a fish that would outgrow my 37. It would take some time, and lord knows what tanks I'd have talked myself into by then. I'm not convinced one way or the other. I'm not a sentimentalist. If a fish isn't a good fit, I'll find it another home, and move on to the next one.
See.. touchy subject heh.. while I tend to agree with everyones opinions I still lean towards the feel that... if your tank is big enough for the juv. and you DO have intentions/plans to get it into a bigger tank (I mean, sure you can say SOME people wont do it.. but you cant say ALL, right..) then it's not that big of a deal. We all know what is right and wrong... etc... and if we are the "responsible reefkeepers" we really are.. then we will do what is right for the fish.. either way! It comes down to some common sense and general reef keeping responsibilities. If you know yourself you have the intentions of providing the optimal environment for that fish once it outgrows (or begins to outgrow; would be a better choice of words) then I myself think it's not that cruel... and I do agree that sticking any fish ripped from the ocean is cruel enough to begin with.
Haha I don't make a whole lot of sense I know.. but you can get the jist of things.
Invigor
10-05-2005, 03:41 AM
of course it's a touchy subject -- we're playing god..which is an awfully selfish thing to do :mrgreen:
StirCrazy
10-05-2005, 03:41 AM
Steve, no one said anything about keeping a tang in a 20g...
bah that was numbers I pulled out of the air as and example as we have had people with tangs in a 20 befor. for what it is worth I agree that a small tang species would be ok in a 40 or bigger (tang police are going to roast me on this one :mrgreen: ) but I would not keep any species of tang in a smaller tank than that. as for angels there are several dwarf species that are colorfull and interesting as well as other types of fish more suited to a small tank that are equaly cool. if you go with angels and you have soft and LPS corals are you willing to risk them becomming lunch? all kinds of questions you need to ask.
I know there are several people that do actualy upgrade tanks but do a poll on the size of main tank that people on the board have and I think you will find the majority under 60 gal. another poll of who plans on upgrading there tank size will show a high number but if that is followed up with a poll on how long the upgrade has been on hold or in the planning stage I think you will find the majority end up wishing they could get a bigger tank (I am one of thoes also :mrgreen: ) not nessasarly for anyone reason either.. mine is no place to put it, ran it by the wife to cut a hole in my den wall so you could see it from the family room, I figure I could get at least a 224 gal tank in there but the reception wasn't that warm :mrgreen: so I am one of thoes people that wanted a fish that needs much more than my 94 gal and if I would have given into it two years ago it would now be cramped with no hope of getting a bigger tank for a while. Not because I didn't want to but because I can't at this time.
Steve
Is it okay to keep my powder blue in his moist sock? :lol:
Depends on the person. If they are a serious hobbiest who does actually upgrade from time to time, or has several willing friends to take larger fish, there's no problem with doing so.
If they don't have the means to upgrade RIGHT NOW - means there is a good chance they probably never will.
geopod
10-05-2005, 04:13 AM
So I guess I shouldnt keep the 20lb Salmon in my 33 gal then should I ....mmmm supper.Touchy subject for some.I kept fish for almost 20 years now.This is my 3rd year with saltwater.I believe we are all playing God when it comes to fish as well as any other animal or lizard which ever it may be..And I have 2 dogs a cat ,lizards, fish...reading everyones posts everyone has their own opinions and beliefs and yes someone may not like it.But I always tried to keep my fish to the size of the tank.When I bred discus I kept a pair in a 60 Gal.Cause to me they get big and they needed space.You will always have those that will keep big fish in smaller tanks why....money.But they want the fish.I have seen it.Its pretty bad when I looked at ones guys tank and all I saw was fish and no liverock or coral.
reefburnaby
10-05-2005, 04:26 AM
Hi,
In my opinion, I'd say no. For starters, these types are fish are usually very young when we buy them (like a 1 inch tang). Hence, these young fish tend to more fragile and more suceptible to shock than older ones. We all know that many more fish die before we even see them at the LFS. Why needlessly kill more fish just to keep a younger/smaller fish because our tank is too small to keep their older siblings?
Also, I think it is morally wrong. Its like buying a small puppy. After a year, you sell it because its too big and its not quite as adorable. Many people do it, but I just think it is wrong.
That's my take on the subject.
- Victor.
Petcrazy
10-05-2005, 07:11 AM
There's my other point...
You never know what the future holds, and more often than not people don't upgrade from what I've seen, unless they are among other aquarists and get a little encouragement. (Either by being in awe of other people’s setups...eg TomR's, or getting prompted into it because people think your tank is too small etc)
You don't know where you will be financially in the future, so you may as well stay safely within your limitations in the mean time.
How hard is that?
Something my mother taught me when I was little (since I was reaaally bad about constantly bringing pets home, weird things from garage sales etc....you'd be amazed how easily people take money from a little kid.....-grumbles-) "You don't need to take everything you see home. Sometimes it's perfectly acceptable just to look at something you like and appreciate it for what it is without taking it home with you."
That and why do people always think of the bare minimum they can provide their pets, other than what they can do to make the animals life comfortable, rather than less imposing on our own.
They never asked to be taken into your home, you took them in, so show your appreciation by giving them the best that you can provide for them.
reeferaddict
10-05-2005, 07:22 AM
Steve - I can show up Sunday AM with a power saw....... :mrgreen:
StirCrazy
10-05-2005, 07:01 PM
Steve - I can show up Sunday AM with a power saw....... :mrgreen:
I think I might be looking for a new place to live if I did that, Hmmmm Brad has a second Bedroom :mrgreen:
Steve
Gizmo
10-05-2005, 07:10 PM
There are ways to help in this, like having a very high current in a part of the tank so the fish actually has to work to swim into it
Steve
Thats like sticking you in a 10'x10' glass room, and telling you if you want to run, use the treadmill in the corner :rolleyes:
StirCrazy
10-05-2005, 07:24 PM
There are ways to help in this, like having a very high current in a part of the tank so the fish actually has to work to swim into it
Steve
Thats like sticking you in a 10'x10' glass room, and telling you if you want to run, use the treadmill in the corner :rolleyes:
kinda not realy, I am still talking about a large tank that is say 4 foot long and then adding a huge current (like they would have in the wild) does two things, gives them more of a natural water patteren and allows them to go a little harder in the space they have. so instead of a 10X10 room say a school gym with a treadmill all the way around the outside.
Steve
vBulletin® v3.7.3, Copyright ©2000-2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.