Attacked !

[shadowboy]

Wake to up find all my fish swimming happily around, my new copperband butterfly ( that anthony said i stole from him) was swimming up to me ready to be fed. Go back to get some food come back to the tank 5 minutes later and i find the CB wedged in my feather duster rock. I stuck my hand in and gently tried to pull her out. She went in a frenzy swimming back wards, trying to free her self. Very odd the only fish i had that had got stuck in the rock my my retarded blue tang, for sure the butterfly would have more sense. I got a better look at the rock, and what do i see? One giant ass crab holding onto her nose. I run and got my mom to find the Wooden BBQ skewers :-) With the utmost care I skewered the crab, he quickly let go and my copper band swam out, missing a bit of nose and her face all ripped up. I had to dip the rock in fresh water and get tweezers to get the crab out. He was one big @$#%, so now hes in my refugium ( seeing as my mom wouldnt let me kill him) So now Im waiting to see if my butterfly will ever eat again.


tristan

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

Should have left him (copperband) in my tank <insert head shaking emoticon>

Hope he survives. Kill the crab "accidentally".

Anthony

[shadowboy]

the butterflys mouth is all puffed up and cut pretty bad. alot of blodd vessels broken. Is there anything i can do for her? She tries to eat but her mouth is so swollen that she can't get her mouth open enough to. Does she have a chance of surviving? or is she a goner? Is there anything i can add to reduce the swelling? ive heard pure epson salts reduces swelling.

thanks in advance

tristan

[Johnny Reefer]

I wouldn't know about how to treat the wound, but do you at least have a QT/Hospital tank you could put it in? :sad:

Cheers,

[Beverly]

I wouldn't do anything with epsom salts and your butterfly. Don't know what to suggest, either, though. Maybe ask your question on RC in the right forum.

Sorry to hear about the butterfly's tangle with the crab :sad: I agree with Anthony and kill that freaking crab :evil:

[trilinearmipmap]

Supportive treatment ie.

Give the butterfly the best tank conditions possible to allow it to recuperate.

This might mean quarantining it in a cage inside the tank made up of eggcrate if any other fish are bothering it.

Then I would offer it small frozen food such as small or chopped mysis.

I would see if the Copperband starts to eat in a few days if it is given some solitude and no fish to compete with it for food.

Most likely it can live off its stored energy reserves for a week or two, if this gives it enough time for the mouth to heal then hopefully it may do OK.

I would not medicate at all or do any kind of dip, IMO this would just cause more stress for him.

Anyway that is what I would do.

And saute the crab with green pepper and black bean sauce.

[Aquattro]

The crab just did what crabs do. Give it a safe home in the sump. The CBB should heal quickly....

[Johnny Reefer]

The crab just did what crabs do. Give it a safe home in the sump.
I agree. No need to kill it.

Cheers,

[shadowboy]

thanks for the input. She isnt stressed from the other fish and gets along with them. She has a hearty appetite and fights off my tang for food. She has no problem getting to the food but she cant eat it. Ill give 4-5 days in the main tank and see if she if the swelling goes down. I know on WWM they use epson salt for pop eye to reduce swelling, so thought mabye it would work for the butterfly as well. I dont know if they will harn the coral or not, anyone know? I understand they crab was just being a crab, and he has a spot in the refugium now, and even has a name ( which probaly isn't appropiate for canreef :-) I do have a quarantine tank , but have had nothing but bad experiences with it, and have lost more fish using it then not. all the fish are healty with no signs of ick for almost a year.

Will post how the butterflys doing in a few days. thanks for all the replies

tris

[ron101]

The crab just did what crabs do. Give it a safe home in the sump.
I agree. No need to kill it.

Cheers,

People do what people do - eat california rolls :mrgreen:

[Petcrazy]

Hey Tristan...
Maybe Anthony is right..you should have left the fish in his tank...so I could sneak it to my house in a couple months LOL J/K.

I knew you had crabs...maybe that one isn't the type I had in mind...buuuut whatever.

Seriously I hope she pulls through, though I'm sure she will. You love your fish...

I would feel bad killing the crab myself, so I would keep it in the sump.

Besides, crabs a cheeky little monkeys...I think they are cute.

[Johnny Reefer]

The crab just did what crabs do. Give it a safe home in the sump.
I agree. No need to kill it.

Cheers,

People do what people do - eat california rolls :mrgreen:
Wha'?

[Beverly]

A crab that is large enough to take a bite out of a CBB will need lots to eat. If it is not fed enough, it will probably die a slow death. If it is fed well, it will significantly add to the bio-load of a system.

I have at least two hitchhiker crabs in my BB 67g that I have not been able to trap. They are the main contributors to the huge amount of detritus we siphon out of that tank each week :eek: :evil: IMO, the added bioload of a large, well-fed predatory crab in a sump is not worth it in terms of the nuisance algae it will eventually produce.

[Aquattro]

A IMO, the added bioload of a large, well-fed predatory crab in a sump is not worth it in terms of the nuisance algae it will eventually produce.

Ya, best hit it with a rock, eh? :razz:

[Johnny Reefer]

They are the main contributors to the huge amount of detritus we siphon out of that tank each week :eek: :evil: IMO, the added bioload of a large, well-fed predatory crab in a sump is not worth it in terms of the nuisance algae it will eventually produce.

The main contributors? Sorry, but I find that hard to go along with.

Also, I may be wrong, but I think the crab would find enough to eat in the sump on it's own, without supplemental feedings, thus avoiding a "slow death". The way I see it, there is usually a certain amount of food that, when the display tank is fed, escapes the display and enters the sump. So you're gonna have uneaten food in the sump anyway. Might as well have a crab in there to help deal with it. It's either uneaten food or crab poop. Take your pick. I'm still pretty new to the hobby, but as far as I know, sump clean up crews are common (cleaner shrimp, etc.) for the very reason of helping maintain the condition of the sump. I would think the crab would be ideal for this.

JMO and cheers,

[Beverly]

They are the main contributors to the huge amount of detritus we siphon out of that tank each week :eek: :evil: IMO, the added bioload of a large, well-fed predatory crab in a sump is not worth it in terms of the nuisance algae it will eventually produce.

The main contributors? Sorry, but I find that hard to go along with.

If food is getting into the sump, overfeeding may be a problem.

Anyway, I have a pair of ocellaris clowns and two cleaner shrimp in our BB 67g. They get fed liberally once a day. Between these four animals, all the food gets eaten from the water column.

The crabs in our 67g eat algae, both macro and coralline. Here are pics of the detritus we get out of the 67g each week...

This is the first pail of water siphoned out of the 67g. The detritus in this first pail is that which is easily reached along the back, sides and front of the tank by the siphon hose. As you can see, most of the detritus has settled in the bottom of the pail, while some remains in the water column:

http://www.lostmymarblz.com/reeftips-maintain-bb-11.jpg

On the left is new saltwater that will be going into the tank after the water change. On the right is the second pail of detritus siphoned from the 67g. This detritus has been blown from under the rock structure:

http://www.lostmymarblz.com/reeftips-maintain-bb-1.jpg

Now you can't tell me that two fish and two cleaner shrimp are going to poop that much in one week :eek:

My page on maintaining BB tanks for more pics and info:

http://www.lostmymarblz.com/reeftips-maintainbarebottomtanks.htm

[christyf5]

Bev, I don't think thats just poop. I find my rock sheds quite a bit of detritus. I have no crabs or shrimp in the tank, just fish and corals. I can do a water change, siphoning all the stuff off the bottom and lower rocks and by the next day I see it building up again. My fish only get fed once a day as well and there is no way they can crap that much to have it build up that fast.

[Beverly]

Christy,

I thought it was just my rock shedding at first too. Then I saw a pair of hitchhiker crabs in that tank one day. I'm sure if there are two, there are more. Crabs hide very well and are often seen only at night.

We have some rock from our 120g in three 5g BB quarantine tanks looking for that snail-eating worm. At one point during the QT, two of the tanks have very little detritus and one had loads. The detritus in the third tank had little pellets mixed among the powdery stuff. When it was time for those three rocks to come out of QT, I checked them all for crabs. Found a quarter-sized crab in the rock from the really dirty tank. I realized the pellets were crab poop that had not broken down yet.

I find these same pellets in the 67g before siphoning. I intend, at some point when Chris (non-union) isn't forced to work 12 hrs/6 days a week because of that freaking Telus labour dispute, to tear down that tank and go crabbing.

I would have never noticed how much detritus was being produced in our tanks if we hadn't gone BB. We get 1/3 as much detritus weekly from our BB 120g as we do out of the 67g.

[christyf5]

Well I can guarantee that I have no crabs in my tank as all the rock was powerwashed rather well and I have a wrasse that loves to snack on them and he would have ferreted them all out by now.

[EmilyB]

Personally, I didn't get into this hobby to intentionally kill the animals that may come my way accidentally. So I have a place to put stuff like that.
Man, it must be full of poop :eek: :razz:

That's just me, but just wanted to let anyone in my area know that you don't need to kill the critter if you don't want to. I'll gladly take it. :biggrin:

Yes I eat crab - but it's dead already :mrgreen: :lol:

[Aquattro]

Bev, I did a water change last night, my water looked the same. I have one crab, about the size of a dime. I don't think it made the water dirty. I also have food escape the tank each feeding due to flow, not overfeeding. I've had hermits in my sump for 6 months now, they appear to be doing fine. The nasty crab in my main tank also appears to be doing well without any direct feeding, although if I ever see it, I'll try to feed it something directly.

[Chin_Lee]

Tristan
can you post a pic of that mean crab? or provide a detailed description? I have one big mean looking crab in my tank so I was wondering if they have any similarities.
Thanks

[Johnny Reefer]

[quote="Johnny Reefer"][quote=Beverly]
Now you can't tell me that two fish and two cleaner shrimp are going to poop that much in one week

No, I can't tell you that. Because it is probably more than just two fish and two cleaner shrimp poop. Of course there is going to be some crab poop there, too. But just some, not most, IMHO. I agree with Christy, also, in that there are other contributors to detritus. The LR, for sure, must contribute some. Also, to partially quote the definition of detritus in the glossary of Eric Borneman's "Aquarium Coarls" book..."detritus:....composed primarily of dead algae, coral mucus and animal waste....". He doesn't mention LR being a contributor, but I'm sure it must.

As for the nuisance algae, let's not forget that the crab was in the tank the whole time and the originator of this thread did not complain of this.

All I'm saying is justification for the killing of the crab, when a sump is available, is just not there. IMO.

Cheers,

[Aquattro]

. The LR, for sure, must contribute some.

I can actually sit and watch detritus being pushed out of the rock by critters living inside the pores. Also, watch snails, they're poop machines!! 1 crab will NOT fill a 5g bucket with fish poop water as pictured above, regardless of size or diet!!
The entire eco system contributes to the bioload. This means pods, worms, fish and crabs. I gaurantee removal of any crab isn't going to clean up the detrtus in a tank!!

[trilinearmipmap]

OK as far as my experience with a CBB and crabs, I got some live rock over a year ago that was full of crabs. Trapped about 12 of them before I gave up, there were too many crabs to count. Then never bothered any corals or fish but they ****ed me off by eating the coralline algae.

Since I got my CBB about 2 months ago I have seen no more crabs at all. I presume the CBB hunted them all down. But I thought CBB's only ate smaller stuff.

[Johnny Reefer]

As for the nuisance algae, let's not forget that the crab was in the tank the whole time and the originator of this thread did not complain of this.

BTW shadowboy,
Hope things work out re: your CBB. Looking forward to hearing a feel good story, in the end.

Cheers,

[shadowboy]

well this post really took off eh? left the post at 6 replies and now its up to 25! all you night owls posting at 2 am. Chin the crab looks like a squat llobster/porcelin crab. Two large front brown claws tucked underneath its "chin" the rest of the body is white, looks like the crabs at the beach in van if you pick up a rock. hes a little bit bigger than a toonie. I'm starting to put the puzzle together, I've lost a yellow clown goby and a watchman goby mysteriously, with no remains. both we healthy and well fed, but overnight....gone. I've seen close to 10 crabs in my tank, and they havent caused to much harm, a couple have red eyes though kinda creepy. Im not goin to go to all the hassle of hunting them all down, i just think that that would casue more stress to the fish and corals, than leavin them. I have mostly bigger fish now, and a big ass checkerboard wrasse that will keep them in check ( thanks gobigirl)

thanks for all the posts, the CBB isnt looking any better and still isnt feeding. Hope for the best

tristan

and petcrazy Im working on the other "crab problem" no thanks to you :-)

[Beverly]

Tristan,

Sorry to hear the CBB isn't feeding :sad: Hope there is a happy ending for your beloved fish :smile:

Here's a thread on crab traps. IME, the red eyed ones are easy to trap with meaty foods:

http://www.canreef.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18126&highlight=crab+trap

[shadowboy]

Im happy to say that my butterfly is eating again! I starved her for 2 days after she would even look at the food. Everything is healed up, with a little scaring. The last couple of days she has pig her heart out on mysis and my tubeworms (sigh) She is looking excellent. thanks for all the help

tristan

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

Hooray!!! Can't wait to see your tank in person next week!

Anthony & Irene

[shadowboy]

Get ready for a big disapointment :biggrin:

[Beverly]

So glad to hear your fish is well :cool: