Mayday! Clowns look terrible

[outtafocus]

I have had my 2 true perc clowns in my Quarentine tank for a week now. I have been using Seachem Cupramine per the directions on the bottle. I have added no more than suggested.
All signs of ich disapeared a few days in, now both clowns are looking very nasty.
I believe this is marine velvet, but I could be wrong.
Can anyone suggest a proper course of action to bring them back?
Both seem to be eating ok, they dont appear to be gasping. However the little guy keeps doing a head pointed down swimming action.

I have them in a 2gal tank with a little hang on filter. (similar to azoo razzle dazzle)
Temp is at 80F, I havent tested the SG because I am affraid of contaminating the hydrometer with copper. It was at 1.023-1.024 on the day I added the cupramine. I have been religous about toping off also.


http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b213/outtafocuscalgary/2005_0627Image0014.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b213/outtafocuscalgary/2005_0627Image0013.jpg

[outtafocus]

The clowns are gasping now. They also look alot worse. Their skin is almost grey.
I gaurantee they will be dead by morning.
I dont know what went wrong. The cupramine should have killed any remaining parasites by now.
Help?

[AndyL]

Water change first, ask questions later...

That small volume of water, 2 clowns... I'm guessing no live rock or other biofilter... I'll guess on ammonia myself.

Andy

[monza]

Big water change?? What ever that means in a 2G?? Looks like velvet to me or massive nitrates, ammonia. How about a bigger tank if they make it to the morning.

Good luck.

Dave

[outtafocus]

water change now, ask questions later thanks

[outtafocus]

50% water change complete. The benefit of having a vat of salt water at the ready.
I also just ran an ammonia test. I have never even seen this colour before.
1.0 ppm. ouch

I will probably do another smaller water change in the morning.
I dont know what to dose the cupramine. I still want to rid them of the ich.

[EmilyB]

Brookynella or a really bad pH IMO

[OCDP]

Can you give us an update? Are they still alive?

A bigger sized tank would definitely do some good on it's own.. 2 gal. is after all pretty tiny (a qtank is a qtank none the less...) but I personally would get a 10g tank.

I really wish I could give you some input and advice to help.. but I have never treated fish before.

Hopefully someone can come along with some advice . I hope they can make it through this for you. Best of luck,

[danny zubot]

To save these little guys you could try dropping yor salinity a bit, it will help their osmotic response.(breathing) If you think this is ick, continue to drop the slainity slowly over the next few days down to about 12 PPT to see if it clears up. If it does, it was ick, then you can continue with hyposlainty treatment. If it isn't ick and in fact marine velvet, you could try treating with methylene blue, for bacterial infections. Or feed with garlic to boost thier immune systems.

[OCDP]

Does marine velvet and brook and ich all look alike??

[BCOrchidGuy]

Brooklynella should look like a thick whitish mucous coat. The fish will exhibit signs of rapid breathing loss of appetite and open mouth gasping. They will also have fading body colours in advanced stages.

15 Min Full Freshwater dip, (ensure pH and temp are similar if not exact to the tank). 4 Drops of Formalin/gallon and follow the treatment outlined on the package.

Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) often infects fish in a cycling aquarium :idea: or aquariums with fluctuating temperatures. Ich looksl ike small distinct salt like white dots that can be seen with the naked eye.

Decrease salinity to 15ppt or 1.011 for a week.

Amyloodinium or Oodinium ocellatum, or velvet or coral fish disease etc etc is extremely difficult to recognize until the advanced stages. The individual parasites (trophonts) are to small to see with your naked eye. Dinospores are prone to attatch to fishes gills and you will see your fish swimming face on into a power head or filter device to help with the irritation. Look for rapid respiration, swimming into water currents, and scratching like you'd see with Ich. Clowdy fins, or excess mucus on various parts of the skin all could be indicitive of Amyloodinium.

A 5 Min freshwater dip will help but if the fish has the excess mucus the parasite may be protected from the dip. Decrease SG to 1.011 Make sure the tank is Bare Bottom, Vacuum the bottom a few times a day. After 2 days of lowered Salinity then add copper or Cupramine at the recommended dosage and slowly bring the tanks SG back up to 1.018(do this change over about 3 days). Do daily water changes to replace water you are removing with the vacuuming and add copper etc as needed to maintain your dosage. The stuff you clean off the bottom will still be alive so make sure you bleach the water before you dump it down the toilet or you'll be introducing a parasite into your home water environment. Bleach the bucket and rinse it before you add water back to your tank.

Doug

[OCDP]

So would this more than likely be velvet?

Or could still be ich, right? It looks like the fish have been dusted in flour or something, not so much individual spots like ich?

I can't diagnose , just trying to help.

[adidas]

I also just ran an ammonia test. I have never even seen this colour before.
1.0 ppm. ouch

is 1ppm that bad? you should see mine..was at 8.0ppm the other day :eek:

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

I was under the impression not to use any copper-based meds on clowns. Every time I've done it, they died. Read the Copper-Safe bottle & it states not safe for clowns.

[Chad]

just a note on the ammonia issue - for sure you should use a larger QT. 10 gal min.

Q: I'm using Cupramine™ and my ammonia test kit is showing ammonia off the scale. What is going on?
A: Ammonia test kits can not distinguish ammonia from the amine based complex present in Cupramine™ and will therefore give a false high reading for ammonia while using Cupramine™. Our Ammonia Alert™ and MultiTest: Free & Total Ammonia™ test kit do not suffer from this problem as they utilize a gas exchange technology that can distinguish ammonia from amines.

[outtafocus]

Sadly the clowns did not make through the night. Both were dead this morning. I'm sad.

I believe it was brooklynella, as the symptoms match what was posted above. Colour had faded alot, black strips were a light brown, the orange looked pale. They also had a nasty film on them.

As for the 2gal QT. I had posted in a previous ich thread if a 2gal Qt would be ok to use. I was told it would be ok. They would have been in a 10gal, but a friend borrowed it as a temporary home for her turtle.

It was a rookie mistake to not even think about some kind of biological filter. The entire quarentine process was such a knee jerk reaction for me that I must have just let that bit slip.

I will be waiting a long time before I buy any further fish. I feel I have more research to do. I thought I had enough knowledge to safely buy a fish or two, but this shows I have a long way to go.

When I do decide to buy fish again, they will be going straight into a 10gal QT, however, what should be used as a bio filter? The copper solution will kill anything on live rock.
Suggestions?

[Johnny Reefer]

I was under the impression not to use any copper-based meds on clowns. Every time I've done it, they died. Read the Copper-Safe bottle & it states not safe for clowns.
I QT'ed 2 Amphiprion ocellaris last month using Copper-Safe with no adverse effects. When I saw this post I ran to my bottle of Copper-Safe. (Say it ain't so!). Couldn't find the warning about clowns and Copper-Safe you speak of.
It is Mardel's Copper-Safe you are refering to? :confused:

Cheers,

[Johnny Reefer]

When I do decide to buy fish again, they will be going straight into a 10gal QT, however, what should be used as a bio filter? The copper solution will kill anything on live rock.
Suggestions?

Start QT with 5gal. from your main tank and 5gal. new water.

No live rock. Just a BB tank with a few things for hiding. eg: PVC pipe.

Simple filter, (I use an Aquaclear 150 on a 20g QT), no carbon, no other media. Just foam. You could even just go with one of those internal foam filters.

Primary dose with Copper-Safe twice. First week and second week.

Test for ammonia frequently. It will begin to spike right away. Should test for this at least every other day.

Do a 2gal. water change (20%) every day for the entire QT period. This will help keep the ammonia at reasonable levels.

Supplementary dose enough Copper-Safe (enough for 2gal.) every day to compensate for Copper-Safe removed due to the 20% water changes.

It wouldn't hurt to test for nitrites and nitrates as well, IME. (I lost a $100 Flame Angel 2 days before QT was to end because I didn't think to test for nitrates and they were off the chart). Doh!

QT duration? Some say 2weeks, some say 3.

If your fish show signs of disease, continue QT for 2 weeks past the time symptoms dissappear.

At the end of QT, when the fish is/are transferred to the main tank, shut your QT tank down. Clean it all up and just let it sit empty until you need it again.

The above is the advice this rookie reefer was given by my LFS and everything went perfectly except for the nitrates thing, and that was my fault. I did two QT's back to back without shutting the tank down and starting again with a fresh batch of QT water. Thus the water had cycled into exceptionally high nitrates by the end of the second QT.

Cheers, :smile: ,

[BCOrchidGuy]

I've always been a fan of Cupramine, it's safe, it's effective and it's always in my cabinet.

Doug

[danny zubot]

what should be used as a bio filter? The copper solution will kill anything on live rock.
Suggestions?


Right now in my Q-tank (20 gallons) I have an aquaclear 200 and a powerhead for added circulation. I have carbon in the filter but I'm not using copper. I went to Wai's and bought a few pounds of LR rubble for bio filtration. At such a low salinity (10ppt) I imaging the bacteria in the LR will die off somewhat, but then, it will end up in my sump afterwards anyway.

[bulletsworld]

My guess would have been brooklynellosis, especially if mucus shedding. It's a nasty parasite, acts real fast to. Dropping salinity does nothing for this parasite. Only method of treatment is formalin baths, but its also nasty stuff to use and can be dangerous for fish as the warmer your water, the less formalin you use as both formalin & increasing temperature reduces the oxygen saturation of the water. In other words your fish will be screaming, "Must have...oxygen!" that’s before they collapse of course to their death. Every heard the saying sometimes the cure is worse then the disease. Well that's a good example of it here. Did I forget to mention Formalin is dangerous for human to. Has to be used in VERy ventilated area.



I was under the impression not to use any copper-based meds on clowns. Every time I've done it, they died. Read the Copper-Safe bottle & it states not safe for clowns.
I QT'ed 2 Amphiprion ocellaris last month using Copper-Safe with no adverse effects. When I saw this post I ran to my bottle of Copper-Safe. (Say it ain't so!). Couldn't find the warning about clowns and Copper-Safe you speak of.
It is Mardel's Copper-Safe you are refering to? :confused: Cheers,

I have also used Copper-Safe on clowns many times without death. If you lost them it could have been may factors mainly the major one probably being to late.

I have read in the past claims that copper use with clowns could effect the reproduction in the fish, but has been no proof of this, that I know of. Knowing copper is made to be your last option in treatment cases anyway. But again you have to wonder if the cure is indeed worse then the disease/parasite.


I've always been a fan of Cupramine, it's safe, it's effective and it's always in my cabinet. Doug

IMO, I am not a fan of Cupramine compared to CopperSafe. I have found myself that Cupramine seems to be more harsh on fish while treatment. But the main reason I'm not a fan of Cupramine is the way it falls out of solution making it so easy to over dose (happens alot) and requires A LOT of monitoring during the whole treatment time to keep the dose even & safe. Where as CooperSafe you can measure, dose, it does not fall out of solution and will stay in water for up to a month. Did I happen to mention as well, that Coppersafe is less then half the price compared to Cupramine. :wink:

[OCDP]

The whole disease treatment factor has really been bugging me lately. Im in the frame of mind that to treat a fish is just as cruel as picking them out from their natural homes. Would they need such treatment if they were not removed from their homes?

The whole disease concept has really been getting to me the last week or so. Why do we take these precious animals from the ocean and make them suffer all of these different diseases/treatments/procedures ? Makes ME think anyways.. don't know about you guys.

It just all seems sooooo wrong to me now lol I don't think a fish deserves to be put through half of what it is put through in this hobby. Having said that, I am hoping I don't have any more fish to purchase. Keeping my current livestock (hopefully) and no more fish purchases... will keep the fish I have happy and healthy as can be in captivity.

I think the bottom line is......... we're selfish . To some degree anyways.

[muck]

The whole disease treatment factor has really been bugging me lately. Im in the frame of mind that to treat a fish is just as cruel as picking them out from their natural homes. Would they need such treatment if they were not removed from their homes?

The whole disease concept has really been getting to me the last week or so. Why do we take these precious animals from the ocean and make them suffer all of these different diseases/treatments/procedures ? Makes ME think anyways.. don't know about you guys.

It just all seems sooooo wrong to me now lol I don't think a fish deserves to be put through half of what it is put through in this hobby. Having said that, I am hoping I don't have any more fish to purchase. Keeping my current livestock (hopefully) and no more fish purchases... will keep the fish I have happy and healthy as can be in captivity.

I think the bottom line is......... we're selfish . To some degree anyways.
not this again... :rolleyes:

[OCDP]

lol well I must have missed it the first time around? Otherwise I wouldn't have said anything.... no one has to comment on it at all... just stating my opinion, that's all.

[Chad]

Personaly I have not lost a single fish due to disease. parasite or any other illness.

For the most part, all fish have parasits or "illness", its just that they are healthy enough to fight them off.

[Bob I]

Two gallon quarantine tank :question: :question: , with no method of biological filtration :question: . Need I say more :question: . You doomed your fish to a quick death. Period. :rolleyes:

[BCOrchidGuy]

Yes I agree we are selfish, we try hard to keep fish and corals however, 20 years ago no one could keep coral or fish for the most part because not enough people did it and learned how. We are acting as an on going experiment and our experience helps those who follow in later years. Disease prevention, disease treatment, filtration, lighting, what we figure out will make a difference to someone in 20 years. That being said, Bob and I both had Rainsfords gobies at the same time, lovely fish, mine thrived while Bob's didn't. I assumed it was because of the number of pods in my aquarium but I found out later they need a heavy growth of filamentous algae, I didn't even know I had it????? Point is, with some precautions we can minimize the stress on the fish we choose to keep.

Doug