Lionfish injurey?....deceased

[danny zubot]

I need help indentifying what this is. The first pic is of my dwarf zebra lionfish in the q-tank, this is what his fin should look like.

http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/1071Phoomps_2.JPG

This is what the other fin looks like.

http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/1071Phoomps_fish_1.JPG

This shows the swelling from behind the same fin. Is this an injurey or an ingfection. He hasn't eaten for 2 days even with garlic soaked food, which is unusual for him.


http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/1071Phoomps_3.JPG

[bulletsworld]

Danny,

Awww...poor little Mr. Phoomps.

It's not uncommon for a fish to experience a secondary bacterial infection after being infected with Ich.


But to the process of elimination, I have many questions for you....

1. Does he showing any other signs other then behind that one fin?
2. How long has this swelling been going on? Is it growing each day?
3. Since in QT, what method of treatment are you using?
4. Did this happen after treatment started?
5. If treating Hyposalinity, what is your salinity at now?
6. Did you suffer a Ammonia spike at all after you passed 1.016? Did you check?
7. What are your QT tank water parameters?
8. Do you use tap water but condition with Prime or use an RO unit?
9. What foods do you normally feed your Lion? If silversides, how many?
10. I will also assume that you're not feeding him goldfish or other freshwater feeders? Correct?
11. Was he able to be hand fed before he stopped eating?
12. What other tank mates do you have in the QT tank with him?
13. What size is the QT tank?


O.k think I covered everything. :lol:



:mrgreen:

[OCDP]

hehehe you weren't lying when you said "many" :razz:

sorry.. (and if you dont mind Lee, when you have a minute could you check my oh-so amazing ich thread , have some concerns! thanks your a life saver)

[bulletsworld]

sorry.. (and if you dont mind Lee, when you have a minute could you check my oh-so amazing ich thread , have some concerns! thanks your a life saver)

:eek: I'm the fish doc lady now. :eek:

Off to your thread! ZOOOoOOOM! :mrgreen:


:lol:

[OCDP]

yes. you are... we need a few of you hangin around on these boards! heh

[danny zubot]

Ok here we go.
1. Does he showing any other signs other then behind that one fin?
2. How long has this swelling been going on? Is it growing each day?
3. Since in QT, what method of treatment are you using?
4. Did this happen after treatment started?
5. If treating Hyposalinity, what is your salinity at now?
6. Did you suffer a Ammonia spike at all after you passed 1.016? Did you check?
7. What are your QT tank water parameters?
8. Do you use tap water but condition with Prime or use an RO unit?
9. What foods do you normally feed your Lion? If silversides, how many?
10. I will also assume that you're not feeding him goldfish or other freshwater feeders? Correct?
11. Was he able to be hand fed before he stopped eating?
12. What other tank mates do you have in the QT tank with him?
13. What size is the QT tank?


1. No, just the fin
2. Noticed the swelling last night, hasn't been eating for two days, probly started then.
3. hyposalinity
4. Yes, at least 8-10 days into treatment
5. Salinity at 10-10.5 PPT
6. Had NH3 spike on day 3-4, water changed twice since then, haven't tested for several days.
7. Haven't tested for several days.
8. RODI water only
9. He eats Mysis chunks regularily(still frozen in the middle soft on the outside) and 1 inch pieces of silver sides 2-4 times a week. Lately soaked in garlic.
10. No live food at all.
11. Hand fed before, very well trained (thank Deb!)
12. Q-tank has 1 false perc, 1 Regal tang, 1 small tail wrasse and phoomps.
13. 20 gallons with aquaclear 200 filter.

I haven't noticed any aggression between the tankmates. The new wrasse and phoomps hang out together and I haven't noticed and nipping of the fins. No spots are apparent at this time.

[EmilyB]

Danny, I wouldn't worry at all about him not eating right now, they can go a LONG LONG time. Save that worry for another day.

If it's an injury/infection, water quality is going to be your best friend. I think nutritionally the fish is in good shape.

Good luck.

[danny zubot]

I agree Deb, his belly is still quite plump. I'd just like to know what happened to him, maybe he stung himself! :biggrin:

[danny zubot]

I just got off the phone with my girlfriend and she has given me bad news. Mr. Phoomps is dead. :cry:
Whatever happened to him took over very quickly because not more than 2.5 days ago he appeared fine. She says that his fin has been eaten down to the bone by whatever was infecting it. And his gill looks like it was infected too. I hope it doesn't spread to the other fish. I may treat with methylene blue when I get home just to controle a bacterial outbreak.

[OCDP]

Damn that's horrible Danny... I am very sorry to hear,

Whatever was wrong with him sure did hit him hard though.... poor mr. phoomps. Truly sorry for your loss man.... such a bummer.

[adidas]

:cry: that sucks...

[danny zubot]

Its dicouraging.
Mr. Phoomps was my girlfriend's fish, but he was my favorite too. We got him as a baby and had to have Deb train him to eat. After several months at her place she gave him back, and he was a real character. They call them lionfish because they prowl for thier food just like a cat.

[outtafocus]

sorry to hear. :frown:

[bulletsworld]

Yiks! I just left for a little bit! SoRRY! :redface:

So sorry Danny to hear about Mr. Phoomps. I know you loved that guy. He'll be dearly missed, I'm sure. :sad: *SUPERHUGS*

My speculation of the events....

Since this seemed to all have started during treatment. It is possible you lowered the salinity to fast and without closely monitoring the NH3 spike (how high did it go?), knowing scaleless fish (Mr. Phoomps is one of them) are very sensitive, intolerant of ammonia. And without testing... its possible Mr. Phoomps suffered mild ammonia burn when it spiked (or still), teamed up with the ich infestation (too much) it would left him with a wicked bacteria infection. :eek: Now without knowing your water quality levels, you'll never know for sure.

Now if he was still alive.... It's hard to say what would have been best to do. Treating with an antibacterial medication (for scaleless fish) would have probably been my opinion, that's first IF it didn't go away on its own or clear up with having excellent water quality over about a weeks time. I agree, water quality is key.

:idea: Just for your info, its not uncommon after dropping the salinity (Hyposalinity treatment) to approx. 1.016 to get a ammonia spike, if your not watching closely. It can mean you’re dropping it to fast. You need to give enough time for bacteria to balance in your system, to be stable and not crash. Most fish are hardy enough to handle a spike unless their scaleless or heavily infected with a parasite.

Also if you’re testing (Nitrate, Nitrite & Ammonia) regularly then you could have caught the spike before it happened. Cause you would see your Nitrates would be rising and rising. It does happen fast though so you have to be on top of it when you know your passing about 1.016.

Please be comforted to know that scaleless fish are one of the HARDEST fish to treat once they get ill. They are very sensitive to treatment & limited for meds to use on them.

But you have other fish still in QT :eek: ...so run HOME...check water parameters, quick! Let us know if the others show an infection of the fins as well.


:redface: Deepest regards for Mr. Phoomps. *HUGS*

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

Dang. Sorry about your fav fish both of you. Condolences from the coast.

Anthony

[EmilyB]

:cry:

Danny, Frank Marini knows ALL about lionfish and I've talked to him a lot. Find him on reefcentral and send him the pics etc.

[danny zubot]

Thanks guys. Anige was pretty upset about "her" fish dying, at least she didn't cry this time. (She's pregnant, she's allowed)

When I got home I examined the fish closely, the fin infection spread rapidly to the gills and I suspect that he died of suffication. My levels were tested right away and I found that the NH3 actually dropped, but my NO2 was really high, and nitrates were relatively low as well. All other fish were fine. I did two 5 gallon water changes that night, one consisted of water from the main tank, diluted to 10PPT. I figured the Q-tank needed more bio bacteria to help with denitrification. As of last night NH3 and nitrates are almost 0, NO2 is still very high though. Another water change will help.

I didn't know scaless fish were more sensitive to salinity changes, I would have slowed down the process if I'd have known. Bummer. I did follow the intructions pretty acurately, it took at least 3 days to drop the salinty to 10-11 PPT.