omg... the Ich is back . What's the deal?!?!? I need help. [Archive]

OCDP

06-23-2005, 03:33 PM

I am having a real hard time here guys... this is upsetting.

Some may know that I had a pair of true percs about 2 months or so ago, they both came down with ich.. and sadly never made it. (This whole time I had a yellow watchman in the tank and is still there) ... so they didn't survive, which was upsetting (already in rough shape when I got them)

So I figured great.. the ich is going to spread to the YWG now... but to my suprise, it didn't.. and we are talking months.. so about 3 weeks ago I put in a bicolor blenny.... no ich, no nothing... on either fish.

I put in a pair of true percs from golds on Tuesday evening, the pair is in such good health and spirits... and then last night I spotted ich on both their bodies!!! WHAT IS THE DEAL!?

How does the ich not get to the yellow watchman goby (who has been in the tank since the last pair of true percs died from ich, and poor health when recieved) .. and how does the bicolor not get it?? and then of course my fav. fish get the ich...

So you know, I am at a loss.. no QT, no supplies for QT, no money for QT ... I thought I had gotten off lucky, I admit to that... but I am just soo confused as to why these two fish didn't get ich, and they have both been in the tank for a while ... and then the clowns are in for one night, and the next I spot the evil white spots..... I am so PO'd !!

danny zubot

06-23-2005, 03:57 PM

I'm really sorry about your problem Scott. The bad new is that the Ick has probably been there all along. As to why the goby doesn't have ick is a mystery to me. I believe that many sand dwelling fish have either a higher immunity to this parasite, or the parasite is not interested in them because they are sand dwelling. The life cycle of ick should only be a couple of weeks, if no fish are present they will die off in this time. If even one of the parasites hosted on the goby thats all it needed to propogate its species, and they are resiliant.

You will need to quaranteen the fish; even the goby, for 4-6 weeks and perform hyposalinty treatment. Medications such as kick Ick don't work, I know from experience because I'm going through this right now. You will need to leave your tank fallow for 4-6 weeks to ensure the tank is free from the ick bug. You only need a 10 gallon tank, a cheap heater and some kind of filter or powerhead.

Good luck, I feel for you man.

muck

06-23-2005, 04:04 PM

You will need to quaranteen the fish; even the goby, for 4-6 weeks and perform hyposalinty treatment. Medications such as kick Ick don't work, I know from experience because I'm going through this right now. You will need to leave your tank fallow for 4-6 weeks to ensure the tank is free from the ick bug. You only need a 10 gallon tank, a cheap heater and some kind of filter or powerhead.

Good luck, I feel for you man.

I would leave your tank fallow for a minimum of 6 weeks no less..

OCDP

06-23-2005, 04:08 PM

Any ideas on why the bicolor didn't get it?

danny zubot

06-23-2005, 04:26 PM

There isn't much information out there (that I could find) about why certain fish don't get it. Some fish aren't appealing to the certain parasites while others are. This time around it was my tang that introduced it, my clown got it worse and my lionfish only got a bit. Before, my manderine never got it while my psudochrimis got it and fought it off every time. It may have something to do with their scales but I can't be sure.

Just think if you were a parasite, and you had your choice of food, you'd pick the most tasty and easiest to aquaire, right?

OCDP

06-23-2005, 04:34 PM

Right. I guess that would make sense...

But if it's been 6 weeks or more... and the ich hasn't gone to any fish in the tank, how can it still be in the tank??? This is all confusing.. and I am coming to the conclusion that maybe the new clowns brought in the Ich.. or maybe last night they were just showing signs of Ich from recent transportation (doubtful) .. I am going to try pristine water conditions, and a steady, somewhat heavier diet with garlic extract in it. Clowns afterall, are fairly hardy, and if I act now... maybe I can help them, so they can fight it off.

I just have NO room at all for a QT... that's not a word of a lie either. I would QT if all's I need is a 10g with powerhead and heater.. I just honestly do not have any room in my house. My parents wouldn't like that idea anyways... that's a whole other story though.

If I have no luck with this, I might have to see if some kind soul out there would take them off my hands :( .. either to keep, or if they felt extra kind.. to QT them for me , but that's asking far too much.. so I don't really know what I will do if this doesn't work. Glad things are going well for your livestock now Danny.. good to hear things are clearing up.

This is quite upsetting... I fell in love with these clowns as soon as I put them in the tank.. they are gorgeous percs, they are very calm, and just have something about them.. I dunno!

Bob I

06-23-2005, 04:34 PM

Okay, I have gone through this a number of times. I do not believe that leaving a tank fallow works. For this reason, the Ick encysts, which is a survival method. All the literature states that the Ick breaks out of its cysts, and not finding a host the Ick dies, and the cycle is broken. In my experience that is not true. Encysting is for long term survival of the species, and six weeks is not long term.
in my experience the Ick is present in the tank at all time, and under proper conditions will reinfect susceptible fish. And really I do not care what the experts say. I am using both logic and experience.
Now for OCDP, I have a 10 gallon tank, which has been running for a long time. If you want you can bring the fish over, and I will attempt treatment. For those who don't believe Kick Ick works, it does if you follow the directions carefully. It has worked for me. :eek:

OCDP

06-23-2005, 04:48 PM

So Bob, in other words are you saying that Ich itself has the potential (in your experience) to come back after a tank has been fishless for 6+ weeks?

Now it seems as if I am going to try fighting a battle I can't win ??

Thank you very much for the offer to take the fish Bob, I will most definitely keep you in mind. For the time being, I think I am going to at least try feeding them , keeping a good diet, soaking food in garlic, and keeping water paramaters and stress to a minimal, and see if these clowns can fight it off themselves.

If it looks hopeless , then Bob... I will be getting in touch with you... thanks so much.

danny zubot

06-23-2005, 05:10 PM

Thats really discouraging news Bob, I guess I'll find out if its true. I'm coming up to two weeks of treatment after giving up on kick ick. I just could stand by and let the parasite eat away at the fish any more. Perhaps ick works if you treat immidiately after finding the ick. I didn't start until after the first cysts burst.

I'm interested to know where you read the info about them encysting long term. I've often wondered if they could lay dormant, or if they had to be "born" at a certain time of maturity. Do you think if I continue the Kick ick treatment on my main tank it will aid in killing off any dormant ick cysts?

monza

06-23-2005, 05:33 PM

Any ideas on why the bicolor didn't get it?

Pretty much as Danny said or the fish could have had it and you could not see it. In the same tank some fish can have it so bad they die and some seemingly not infected. Also your new fish might have had Ick and you could not see it. On healthy fish it can hide in and around the gill areas and can be almost impossible to spot.

I sort of agree with Bob's theory that it is always there. Because I've had it come out of seemingly nowhere. But the ‘pros’ do state different...strict QT, hyposalinty treatment for infected fish and fallow water for six weeks. Their logic is strict laboratory scientific study. Where I can't agree with you Bob is if Ick Kick works, how can it be still present in the tank...it simply didn't work.

Dave

Delphinus

06-23-2005, 05:48 PM

If there are spots within 24 hours of introduction, and none on the established fish (and none for several weeks) is there not a chance that the new fish came with the ich? Not disputing whether ich was present or not these last 6-8 weeks, but it seems more plausible to me that the new fish may have been carrying too. After all, they just went through the stress of capture, relocation, and so on, so why would we assume that they came ich-free to begin with?

I think treatment needs to be tempered with the severity of the ich. I don't know. I guess I've been mostly lucky in this respect, but any time I've introduced a new fish that subsequently shown a few scattered spots, eventually overcame them on their own, given good water quality, feeding with garlic supplemented, and just overall common sense on what's good to do and what's not good to do. Now, a bad infestation is obviously not something that can be left to blind hopefulness, of course, but for me, that's what worked.

danny zubot

06-23-2005, 05:59 PM

Here guys, this will answer all of your questions and ease your mind.

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html

Note the parts on "innate and aquired" immunity, as well as "obligate" parasites. it states that an obligate parasite such as ick cannot survive without infecting a host. However, it doesn't say how long ick can remain encysted before it ruptures. Only that it "usually takes any where from 6 to 24 days.

I posted a thread in RC desease forum with this question.

Bob I

06-23-2005, 06:22 PM

I'm interested to know where you read the info about them encysting long term. I've often wondered if they could lay dormant, or if they had to be "born" at a certain time of maturity. Do you think if I continue the Kick ick treatment on my main tank it will aid in killing off any dormant ick cysts?

The idea of long term survival comes out of what knowledge I have about biology. It just does not make sense that the cysts do not go dormant for very long periods of time. Encysting for such a short period of time would not aid in species survival. :confused:

Then again, Tony is correct in that the Ich in the gills is what seems to kill the host, not so much the presence of spots.

I do believe that OCDP is doing the right thing in providing optimum conditions and garlic feeding. Trying to move them when all seems hopeless will kill them for sure. :sad:

bulletsworld

06-23-2005, 06:33 PM

Wow, the continual rehash of Ich, over and over again.

Bob,
I’m sorry but I have to disagree with you. There is many factors why you may have gotten ich back. Depending on the treatment options you used. If it was Hyposalinity its possible it was not left long enough or the salinity had raised during treatment that then should extend the treatment starting from start again. Also there is resent study of ich becoming more resistant to Hyposalinity treatment if the fish is heavily. But I have never experienced this if treatment was done correctly.

Also there are special measures that one MUST take after they have gone through the treatment process using Copper or Hyposalinity and leaving main tank fowl WITHOUT ADDING ANY NEW LIVESTOCK, I not a coral or any invert during the fowl period. Then after treatment is done… NEVER add another piece of livestock (coral, fish, invert) unless its gone in QT tank for a period of time for inspection.

OCDP,

You post, “OMG, the ich is back?” Of course it’s back… Umm Doh. You never attempted to treat the problem it in the first place. How could you expect it to just go away on its own? Especially after you lost fish to the first outbreak, which obviously was severe. If only it was that easy, hey.

So you know, I am at a loss.. no QT, no supplies for QT, no money for QT ... I thought I had gotten off lucky, I admit to that...

But didn’t you just go to Gold’s and buy more fish with $$? Mini aqua clear & 50 heaters are items that can be bought very cheap from local reefers if not given away. A used 10 QT, filter & heater are essential to keeping healthy fish or livestock long term in this hobby. With out ever planning to setup QT tank or "making room for QT" for ALL new additions, with all the ich, velvet, cycts, flukes, red bugs, nudi’s etc. Without a QT tank it’s only a matter of time before one gets something.

but I am just soo confused as to why these two fish didn't get ich, and they have both been in the tank for a while ... and then the clowns are in for one night, and the next I spot the evil white spots..... I am so PO'd !!

There is much debate of the understanding of the Ich cycle and how some fish can gain immunity. Fish can carry the parasite under their gills making it much harder to detect through random observation. They can suffer mild infections but still be a carrier not taking over coming the fish. But as soon as you add a new fish, of course that’s stress from the netting and the travel the ich is present in the tank therefore infecting the weak fish & having it become heavily infected.

To read more about immunity go to this site. http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html

There is ONLY two methods of treatment for Marine “Ich”.

Copper and Hyposalinity

To read more about treatment with Hyposalinity go to this site. http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html

Best of luck. :mrgreen:

OCDP

06-23-2005, 06:35 PM

It's just things like these that make me wonder why we must insist on buying these fish... it's so very unfair.. but theres nothing I can do about that, I can however do my best with the clowns. Will do a water change ASAP, get the garlic tonight, and feed. I will feed a variety, mysis, shrimp, cyclopeeze and maybe some brine.

Don't get me wrong, the clowns still look great.. still in very good health right now. There was no spots on them this morning.. it seems that even last time with my previous pair of percs, I seen the ich mostly at night, with actinics on. But still did see ich in daytime.

**Fish Tanks : The last thing on earth you would expect to drive you mentally insane.

danny zubot

06-23-2005, 06:45 PM

I do believe that OCDP is doing the right thing in providing optimum conditions and garlic feeding. Trying to move them when all seems hopeless will kill them for sure.

I don't agree with this at all. Mine were very far gone, almost two weeks after I noticed the first spots. They were very heavily covered and not eating when I finally put them into the Q-tank. After I achieved the salinty of 10 ppt it only took a day or two for the spots to dissapear and thier appitites to come back. Low salinty is what saved my fish. It makes for easier osmotic response.

Don't get me wrong, the clowns still look great.. still in very good health right now.

For now!

OCDP

06-23-2005, 06:48 PM

Well I guess all's I am left to say is that had I known these kinds of things happen so frequently in the hobby, I wouldn't have started. But I obviously didn't do my reading.

I guess it's time to start thinking about selling things off again. I can't keep going through problem, after problem , after problem... its never ending for me... and after a year or so of all these various problems, I am more than ready to throw in the towel. Call me weak if you will... I am just not seeing the fun side of this hobby no longer. I just keep seeing problem after problem, with no enjoyment and LOTS of money spent.

And I wonder why I bother... if your not enjoying it, and keep running into problems, wasting money.... it's obviously time to get out right? I dont know how much more fishy problems I can handle.

OCDP

06-23-2005, 06:56 PM

One mroe small thing.. to do hyposalinity you need a refractometer (sp) right?

Hmm... this 10g QT tank that is supposed to be setup is going to cost a lot more than what everyone thinks... that's how it ALWAYS is.. nothing is cheap in this hobby. If the feedings and water conditions doesn't help... I guess the only thing left is to just sell it, and go fish only after... 2 clowns, no live rock.. no corals.. nothing... just two clowns, and some ornaments so they can hide, etc...

Bob I

06-23-2005, 07:05 PM

[quote]I do believe that OCDP is doing the right thing in providing optimum conditions and garlic feeding. Trying to move them when all seems hopeless will kill them for sure.

I don't agree with this at all. Mine were very far gone, almost two weeks after I noticed the first spots. They were very heavily covered and not eating when I finally put them into the Q-tank. After I achieved the salinty of 10 ppt it only took a day or two for the spots to dissapear and thier appitites to come back. Low salinty is what saved my fish. It makes for easier osmotic response.

How can you possibly disagree with something that actually happened to someone :question:

Almost EVERY fish that I have placed in a quarantine/treatment tank has died. Almost all the fish I have placed directly into my aquarium has lived :rolleyes:

Therefore my EXPERIENCES dictate not putting a fish into quarantine. Your experiences undoubtedly have validity, but there is equal validity in mine.

There are as many proponents of a given method as opponents. ALL methods if they work are valid. :mrgreen:

bulletsworld

06-23-2005, 07:29 PM

AJ_77

06-23-2005, 07:33 PM

I keep reading how wild-caught clownfish have ridiculously high mortality rates along the supply chain.

I also got a healthy-looking clownfish from the same store once. It was dead in 2 days.

Bob I

06-23-2005, 07:43 PM

I keep reading how wild-caught clownfish have ridiculously high mortality rates along the supply chain.

I also got a healthy-looking clownfish from the same store once. It was dead in 2 days.

Yes, and that includes tank raised ones also. I bought two tank raised percs at a local LFS, and they died. Then I bought two wild caught ones at another. They died too. :eek: I then bought two more wild caught ones at store number two. They are with me today :multi: .

So OCDP don't let a misfortune stop you from enjoying the hobby. We have all had our share of troubles. I, for one, am not sorry I stuck with it. Wives, and children are much more expensive. :microwav:

bulletsworld

06-23-2005, 08:02 PM

I guess it's time to start thinking about selling things off again. I can't keep going through problem, after problem , after problem... its never ending for me... and after a year or so of all these various problems, I am more than ready to throw in the towel. Call me weak if you will...

OCDP,

The thing is no one said the hobby was ever easy and its always warned saltwater is expensive, no doubt about that. Remebering most of all these critters we buy are wild caught. So alot of careful planning & reading must go in ever species before deciding to aquire it, keeping it alive, healthy and happy.

Parasites are noted to be the common reason why so many people get out of the hobby. All of us from one time or another will experiance this stress and it it a big stress no doubt. But one thing you should know for sure...your not alone.... *HUGS* And I will tell you why....

You have this fabulous reef community that is filled with amazing people here that are always willing to dish out their experiances, to lend a hand by helping lend a fellow reefer tank supplies (10gal, thier refractometer or copper & a 50w heater & mini aquaclear filter with thier own established sponges) or reefers that will even offer to treat your sick fish for you, like Bob was kind enough to do.

But long term the investment for getting some used QT supplies is well worth it.

Chin up OCDP! *HUGS* :mrgreen:

Lee

Bob I

06-23-2005, 08:07 PM

Almost EVERY fish that I have placed in a quarantine/treatment tank has died. Almost all the fish I have placed directly into my aquarium has lived :rolleyes:

I can understand where your coming from here. *HUGS* Most people don't QT fish until their already sick. When the fish is already heavily infected sometimes the stress of the netting & being all cramped into a small bare bone tank with all the tankmates is just more then the sick fish can take.

That's why its always its Preventative Measure to quarantine everything before hand preventing future stress & problems. Resulting in healthy fish.

That is exactly my point (sort of)

The fish I quarantined went directly from the LFS into quarantine. They invariably became sick and died. The fish that went directly into my tank from the LFS did NOT get sick. Hence my experience says DON'T QUARANTINE.

But *HUGS* to you regardless. :smilecol:

bulletsworld

06-23-2005, 08:34 PM

I also got a healthy-looking clownfish from the same store once. It was dead in 2 days.

Last time I was in that store, which I love buying corals & inverts there but never fish, I was very werey of their clown fish especially since I seen percula clowns with signs of a parasite infection commonly known as Brooklynella. A parasite that attacks the gills of fish. It's also a kills fast and hard to treat. http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/brooklynella.html

Now the question is... why when we buy fish in stores does it look fine? You asked the LFS when the shipment came in... last week & its still alive! So it appears to look healthy, doesn't seem shy, is eating and its is still alive and so at the time we purchase. Than later you put in your tank without QT and BAM! A few days or a few weeks, sometimes even a month (depends on the size of your tank) the fish gets infected, or the weaker ones get it first or all your fish become infected.

Well here's the answer...Most all stores run big UV Sterilzers, which CONTROL outbreaks. Since parasites have life cycles the fish is usually not in a tank long enough to get a full blow outbreak. Usually has a new home by then and then its the carrier of the disease. So without QT measures your taking a gamble. *ROLL THE DICE PLEASE.....* :mrgreen:

But instead I choose to save myself stress & not gamble.

:mrgreen:

danny zubot

06-23-2005, 08:50 PM

Whole lot O huggin' going on here! :razz:

Bob I

06-23-2005, 08:57 PM

Whole lot O huggin' going on here! :razz:

And LOVING every minute of it. :multi:

danny zubot

06-23-2005, 09:00 PM

bulletsworld

06-23-2005, 09:06 PM

But *HUGS* to you regardless. :smilecol:

Awwww..... :grab: :lol: Thanks Bob!

Whole lot O huggin' going on here! :razz:

Awww...danny needs a Hug too everyone! Yeah especially cause your dealing with this ugly Ich issue to, hey. But you decided to not take the risk and put them in QT & treatment. Good For you! Glad to hear your treatment is going smoothly too. WoOoHOOO!

:mrgreen:

danny zubot

06-23-2005, 09:10 PM

:lol: :lol: :lol:

OCDP

06-23-2005, 09:11 PM

Ok well I just got home, and as of right now, i only see one spot on the female clown.. I know that doesn't mean anything.. just letting you all know.

I have been putting in lots of cyclopeeze to keep their bellies full. Later I will give them a nice portion of garlic soaked mysis shrimp and cocktail shrimp.

Bob, I have a feeling I will be handing them over to you soon.. but I just want to see what the feedings and water changes do, if anything.

These two clowns are by far the best I have ever got , they are gorgeous and full of clownlike personality ... I don't want them to go on me.

Another big issue I have with all of this , is my parents think I am irresponsible with my tank everytime I lose a fish, it's too hard to explain to them that it's not my fault.. they don't listen, they think I am making up stories or something... it's horrible, it's frustrating. This is one of my biggest issues... my parents seriously will get so angry with me when they find out that another pair of nemo's have ich. They just don't want to hear the explanation.. and if they do, they think I am just making things up or something.

danny zubot

06-23-2005, 09:14 PM

So just have them read this thread.

bulletsworld

06-23-2005, 09:24 PM

I just got a reply back from RC regarding ick parasites. They said that they can take up to 24 days to hatch at tropical temp. And up to 72 days at sub tropical temps. This must be why it is sometimes recommended that the temp in the tank be raised to speed up the process.

Yeah RC rocks! Yup, I have found raising the temp does speed up the life cycle of the parasite. Of course their is down sides to it though. If the fish is to heavily infected raising the temperature does also raise the fish metabolism making the fish play harder, want to eat more, BUT increases breathing. If the fish is heavily infected... the high temp and the Ick on the gills make it hard for the fish to breathe.

But you have to ask also why you would want to speed the cycle. You can do this to ease the fish from the infection and first sign of the infection lessing then put in QT to treat right away. BUT if you leave the fish in the same infected tank your only going to get ich again, right?

Another treatment option to ponder is "Three Day Transfer Method." Now I have tried this... and found it only worked if it was one fish being treated. As I discovered myself that having more then one fish in the transfer at the same time could control the parasite (at time Velvet, Aka killer) but it never truly rid the parasite gone.

Also it is noted its extremely stressful to fish. I don't use nets if possible though and try to never expose to air, which helped with stress. This treatment is done in about 15days but the equiptment & time you need to set it up and keep tubs set up is just a headache in itself.

Can read about it here. http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/3daytransfer.html

:mrgreen:

Bob I

06-23-2005, 09:29 PM

Ok well I just got home, and as of right now, i only see one spot on the female clown.. I know that doesn't mean anything.. just letting you all know.

Just one more bit of advice :eek: Don't worry so much, and don't stare too closely at your tank. One spot is probably nothing to worry about. :eek:

For instance my big fat Royal Gramma often gets a spot or two. He also gets torn fins. A while ago he had a white swollen eye. I did not get excited, and just let him be. He has gotten over everything, and is fine today. :rocol:

OCDP

06-23-2005, 09:33 PM

Well I am a paranoid kinda guy I guess hahah.. I have to say this is all my fault. And that's why I worry and feel so bad . I just can't get over the fact that my yellow watchman or bicolor blenny never got it.

bulletsworld

06-23-2005, 09:43 PM

Another big issue I have with all of this , is my parents think I am irresponsible with my tank everytime I lose a fish, it's too hard to explain to them that it's not my fault.. they don't listen, they think I am making up stories or something... it's horrible, it's frustrating. This is one of my biggest issues... my parents seriously will get so angry with me when they find out that another pair of nemo's have ich.

O.h I totally understand what you mean. My BF thought I had lost my marbles, misjuding me, wanted to read where I was getting my info, saying I was totally paranoided, when I got a parasite infection of Velvet after just curing my fish at of Ich. I ended up learning fast but looking for the quick cure and trying all the gimmick products first, so resulted because of that in loosing some of my fav fish. Time was of the essence and ran out & varies treatments were to stressful. I was stressed & even had a fellow reefer come to help me, since I didn't have enough tanks to treat everyone. We both lost fish. Believe me I made my own fair share of mistakes to and lost some amazing fish. This is why I try to help so many others. I know what its like to many times over. Now I do treatments for people here in Edmonton, but your to far away!

My suggestion to you is try to maintain optimal tank conditions, feed garlic, do water changes, and if the spots increase then try to treat before its to late.

If you decide to go get Bob to treat your fish, then just do it. Answer questions later. Tell your parents you have someone, a friend treating them for you.

Or you can ask reefer here if they can lend you some supplies, you can setup and treat yourself. Put the tank on the floor infront your tank if you have to & tell your parents you want to make sure your fish are healthy before you add to your "DISPLAY Tank" showing them that you are responsible & taking precautions. :wink: then you treat your fish and they will never know.

Most people that are not in the hobby do not understand what it takes to mantain and keep this creatures. Don't let it bugg you though. You have had to read alot of info & research to come this far. Your doing good. :wink:

:mrgreen:

Beverly

06-23-2005, 10:01 PM

OCDP,

To keep on going, or NOT to keep on going.... that is the question (to paraphrase Shakespeare :wink: ).

Years ago, we set up a 180g planted FW tank - our dream tank. Bought the best substrate, tons of plants, a variety of fish, a CO2 setup, did water changes and other maintenance weekly, bought numerous test kits and added supplements. And that freaking tank was a disaster :eek: :evil: Fish dying here and there for no apparent reason, nuisance algae that took over the tank, gads, you name it and we had a problem with it. Finally, we decided we'd had enough. Pulled out all the plants, put the CO2 stuff into storage and started again with three oscars and plastic plants. Loved those oscars and the tank was a joy again :cool:

Skip forward in time to two years ago when we set up a 72g after we moved to our present digs. Without doing much research, we added a variety of five angels to the tank. They all looked in good health at the lfs and the lfs guy said they would be okay together in our setup. Yes, stupid me, I believed the lfs guy :rolleyes: Did not think long term when all the fish would be adult size, but that never got to be a problem because they all started dying of velvet within a week :eek: :cry:

Well, I was mad at myself for trusting the lfs guy, buying fish from that particular lfs, and for not doing research first :evil: :redface: Left the tank fallow for six weeks, maybe slightly longer, then began again. Had a few other fish die over the following months, but also had some that lived until the next major disaster, a few months after we upgraded the 72g to a 120g. Our two longest kept fish died and all of our new snails from J&L died in the disaster :cry:

And, while all of that was going on, every couple of days or so another dead snail was found in one area of the tank - dubbed the snail graveyard :confused: One freaking thing after another!!!!!! Finally found out that we had a nocturnal predatory worm in an unknown rock feeding on some of the snails. Began to remove suspect worm rocks and quarantine them in 5g tanks each with a snail. Thought we might have found the worm in maybe two rocks, so both were put into yet another tank with RO water and aeration for 4-5 days, then recured the rocks. Snails kept dying in the 120g, but not as many, so we chalked up the dead snails as ones that did not flip over after falling down.

Then one morning, I found a small long and skinny snail feasting on a dead snail. Should have taken a pic of it, but was so disgusted at finding yet another possible snail predator that I flushed the #*@^%(@# :evil:

So, thinking we got the snail eating worm as well as that little snail, we put all the quarantined and re-cured rock back into the 120g. Two days later, there was another dead snail with the unmistakeable signs of the worm :crazyeye: :bad-word: :puppydog: Took an entire area of rock out of the 120g and placed it in yet another tank,a 20g with PC lighting, for a month to starve the worm. In the past month, only one snail has been found dead, and it was not the work of the worm, who leaves obvious signs of being the culprit.

Anyway, good dang thing we have all those tanks, heaters, powerheads, lights on hand, otherwise I'd have gone completely around the bend, if I haven't already :razz: :eek: :lol:

The month of starving the worm has just passed and this morning I put one rock each into the 5g tanks, each tank with a snail. Only time will tell which of the QTed rocks harbours the worm when we find a snail slimed and dead. Each rock will be in the 5g for at least a week, in case the worm hasn't been starved enough yet :2gunfire:

Okay, those are the disasters we've had in one tank upgraded from a smaller one. We have two other tanks that have had other problems, but not as severe as we've had in the 120g. Plus, in the past few months, have discovered the total importance of testing for and adjusting alk, Ca and Mg, so have added a testing and supplementation regime for the three tanks :eek: :biggrin: :cool:

So back to the original question..... To keep on going, or NOT to keep on going. Well, I love everything about marine aquaria. The fish are colourful and full of personality. The corals are spectular, especially in our 120g with only PC and NO lighting. Not too crazy about weekly maintenance or all that water testing cr*p, but to me, all this turmoil is going to be worth it in the end. We WILL catch that freaking worm. We WILL get our 120g back together some day and have counter space back in our kitchen. Dang, I'm gonna hang in there, because at the end of the day, my tanks are rewarding, even with all the bad stuff we've had happen.

So, will you keep on keeping on, or get rid of your set up? Only you are going to be able to search your soul to find the answer. Sure hope you didn't get a headache reading this post :eek: :razz: And remember, tomorrow is another day :smile:

Delphinus

06-23-2005, 10:04 PM

And people say my posts are long..

outtafocus

06-23-2005, 10:10 PM

I bought my 2 true percs from Golds last saturday. Within 24hrs the ich became visable, I have learned my lesson and will be QTing every fish I get.
Sorry to hear.

Bob I

06-23-2005, 10:22 PM

And people say my posts are long..

And if you get through the whole post, you will probably begin to wonder just how many snails could she have bought with the money she spent on equipment to track down that elusive, and possibly non existent snail eating worm. :eek: :razz:

Beverly

06-24-2005, 12:29 AM

And if you get through the whole post, you will probably begin to wonder just how many snails could she have bought with the money she spent on equipment to track down that elusive, and possibly non existent snail eating worm. :eek: :razz:

Can't shut some people up, eh :razz:

boB,

Already had all that equipment on hand :eek: Must be some kind of reef freak... or something :razz:

There are very specific signs of the kind of worm that slimes snails to incapacitate, then eat them. Pic of dead snail covered in slime and detritus from the BB tank. Of particular note is the stray mucus with bits of detritus floating up from the snail shell into the water column. Had the presence of this worm confirmed by Dr. Ron over at RC, so I'm pretty confident, along with the following quote and my own observations, that we got a baddy in our 120g :2gunfire: :

http://www.lostmymarblz.com/120g-deadsnail-1.jpg

This quote is from http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/rs/index.htm

Oenone are nocturnal predators on snails and clams, and perhaps some other animals. They appear to extend from their burrow, and as they approach their prey they apparently secrete some mucus that covers the prey. This mucus may simply smother the prey, or it may contain some venom or narcotizing agent. After the prey is immobilized the worm extends a proboscis from the bottom of the head into the mucus and the jaws grasp the body of the prey. The jaws may also cut the attachments of the body to any shells, or alternatively the mucus may contain an agent that chemically severs the attachment. In any case, the prey's body is ingested. When the aquarist investigates the scene the next morning, all that typically remains is an empty snail or clam shell covered in a blob of mucus. Not many other predatory animals in marine aquaria typically leave behind such remains, consequently a dead, empty, shell covered with mucus is considered to be good evidence of the presence of an Oenone.

Too bad this worm isn't out during the day when I'm awake to see it :confused:

BCOrchidGuy

06-24-2005, 04:47 AM

Wild caught clowns are notoriously poor shippers, percs especially. Usually captive raised ones ship better but if they are shipped from the far ends of the earth and then sit on a loading bay in some back water hole and then get bounced around here and there and then dumped into a tank at a pet store that housed a fish that did have ICH well chances are you'll purchase a fish with a problem. QT a new fish, lower the salinity over a period, with in reason the slower the change the better as long as the fish is alright.
Are you sure these fish keep coming down with Ich, and not Brooklynella or especially Amyloodinium? Amyloodinium is extremely difficult to recognize until it becomes advanced. A six day treatment in a 1.011ppt specific gravity will most likely help. At this SG the cysts fail to encyst and excyst (hatch). The final thing you can try is a dip in praziquantel treated water, it's an anti parasitic, it is usually used for internal parasites but external parasites will most likely be killed off by the dip as well.

Doug

vertex

06-24-2005, 06:36 AM

Thanks for everyone's posts, I've definitely learned a few new things about ich. I agree, its definitely stressful (to the fishkeeper) when this happens and I hope you end up with a healthy fish recovering on its own!

I had a ich problem recently myself; I just added a great Coral Beauty on the weekend and 24 hrs later it showed some signs of ich. It had as many as 20 tiny spots I guess. Long story short, I put it in the main tank (a 33 gallon reef, understocked so not a HUGE risk) directly after a slow 3 hr acclimation period. I have done this with all my livestock and never lost a thing. I DO have a QT standing by incase things get worse (but honestly I've never needed it in 8 months of reefing!!). Anyway, I cranked the temp to 86, got the new C.B eating and kept a close eye on maintaining pristine water parameters. Did small water changes and sucked out as much extra detritus and debris from the bottom as I could.

The C.B. now after 4 days shows NO signs of ich but I will definitely keep watching closely. All other fish(Scooter Blenny, Clown Goby, and Maroon Clown) show no signs either, What a relief!

I do have a couple questions about this whole process though and after reading the other posts here:

1. The coral beauty was litterally trying to swim straight up out of the bag almost the entire acclimation process. I assume trying to get air, but I had an airstone in the bag as it was dripped. I did not want to dump it in fast since the salinity in my tank was much higher! The fish was obviously stressed, so its no doubt it showed ich after getting in the main tank. Is this an oxygen problem or simply stress? Should a fish be moved quickly to higher salinity if it lookeds like it is severely stressed? I was debating just dropping it in the tank since it was litterally going crazy swimming up for over 2 hours!

2. It sounds like ich can hang around in the tank for a long time if the fish introduced it and it might come back? If I see no signs of ich for several months, can the fish really still be carrying it? There doesn't seem to be any way to erradicate a tank of ich then if it has ever had it before and you keep fish the whole time.

3. And finally, I have read a lot that people feed with garlic soaked food. Is this some fish store product you must use or is there some garlic extract at the local supermarket you can use? Is it harmful to feed all the fish with this even if they don't have ich?

Thanks for all the great help everyone!

bulletsworld

06-24-2005, 09:34 AM

I had a ich problem recently myself; I just added a great Coral Beauty on the weekend and 24 hrs later it showed some signs of ich. It had as many as 20 tiny spots I guess. Long story short, I put it in the main tank (a 33 gallon reef, understocked so not a HUGE risk) directly after a slow 3 hr acclimation period. I have done this with all my livestock and never lost a thing. I DO have a QT standing by incase things get worse (but honestly I've never needed it in 8 months of reefing!!). Anyway, I cranked the temp to 86, got the new C.B eating and kept a close eye on maintaining pristine water parameters.

OMG, you acclimated for 3 HOURS! That’s WAY to long! The signs that your Coral Beauty was showing you were severe stress and lack of oxygen, which you ignored.
The longer the organism has been in the bag, the greater the build-up carbon dioxide and other waste and this may affect other parameters, such as dissolved oxygen. He was running out of oxygen! HELP he was saying, HELP! You’ve been lucky not to lose a fish yet. But a larger fish (i.e. powder brown tang) uses much more oxygen; polluting the water it was in, creating ammonia, then you chance loosing the fish. This has happened to me. A powder brown I was acclimating didn’t even make it out of the bag. It went through a spasm and flipped on its side and dead. I was so in disbelieve. But it happens. Many factors to consider. The LFS water condition, the temp drop on the way home effecting temp, and many more factors.

How long should acclimation take? “Unless the water parameters are vastly different, for example a large difference in specific gravity, 30 to 60 minutes is all that is required for the majority of organisms to adjust to changes in conditions. The exception to this is the echinoderms: sea stars, brittle stars, crinoids, sea cucumbers and sea urchins. Echinoderms are generally intolerant of large changes in water properties, in particular salinity. It is necessary to take significantly longer to allow echinoderms to acclimate ”

Check out this site it will go more into detail. As a quote from the link above.
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/acclimation.html

Also raising the temp to 86! My gawd that’s extreme! Its very hard on the fish and as mentioned before on this thread it does have pro’s and con’s. Regardless it just makes the cycle run faster, including the fish.

The C.B. now after 4 days shows NO signs of ich but I will definitely keep watching closely. All other fish(Scooter Blenny, Clown Goby, and Maroon Clown) show no signs either, What a relief!

Of course your fish would not show signs visible signs of Ich after 4 days, the life cycle of the parasite can be drop off in 3-7 days. But the peak time is 4-5 days. Meaning the Ich cysts fall off the fish once the cysts mature & then they fall right on your rock or substrate and divide (multiply) and then look for a host (your fish) again. Knowing how the Ich life cycle works is KEY to understanding the stages it goes through and breaking them. Check out this web site for detailed info on the life cycle of Ich.
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html

It sounds like ich can hang around in the tank for a long time if the fish introduced it and it might come back? If I see no signs of ich for several months, can the fish really still be carrying it? There doesn't seem to be any way to erradicate a tank of ich then if it has ever had it before and you keep fish the whole time.

Again many factors already mentioned in this thread & debated. If you get an outbreak and you treat with proven methods of treatment, leaving main tank fallow and then quarantine EVERY new addition (includes inverts, corals, frags, etc.) then your tank will remain Ick free. As long as you don’t get impatient and do the gamble and just add that new addition without QT or treatment.

3. And finally, I have read a lot that people feed with garlic soaked food. Is this some fish store product you must use or is there some garlic extract at the local supermarket you can use? Is it harmful to feed all the fish with this even if they don't have ich!

Some have their own recipe of garlic, I use a product you can get at BigAl’s or most LFS’s for about $11 bucks called “Garlic Extreme”, it by Kent. Great stuff and saves you the hassle of mixing or chopping up your own. Also is not harmful for your fish if their not infected, but think of it as an added booster. It’s said to act as some what of an immune booster for the fish. Garlic soaked foods for your fish also are used for fish that are finicky eater or are not eating.

Hope this answers all your questions. :mrgreen:

:mrgreen:

OCDP

06-24-2005, 03:31 PM

So what exactly are the chances of garlic extract working on a clownfish with ich? Are the chances pretty much slim , or do I have a chance?

A quick update... last night I seen about 10 spots or so on each clown, maybe less on the male clown. Still are acting normal, no signs of stress YET. I did a water change on the tank when the spots were shown less on the clowns . I fed about 6 pinches of cyclopeeze to them yesterday as I didn't have a chance to get to the grocery store. Just trying to keep their bellies full. Will be grabbing garlic tonight.

danny zubot

06-24-2005, 03:48 PM

So what exactly are the chances of garlic extract working on a clownfish with ich? Are the chances pretty much slim , or do I have a chance?

I can't say if it will work or not but the link I posted on immunity led me to believe that fish can develope a defense against parasites. Which fish will actually succeed is unknown, but its definately worth trying. Nate at BA's says he feeds garlic as a weekly regiment to boost immunity, though there is no real scientic evidense to support the theory, it is claimed to work.

Lee, you seem to know a lot about fish desease, please check my new thread, I have a problem with Mr. Phooms.

OCDP

06-24-2005, 04:00 PM

Interesting.. thanks Danny, just curious if anyone has some first hand experience with it... maybe I'll try RC and see if anyone has had any success.

Sorry to hear about Mr. Phooms

bulletsworld

06-24-2005, 04:15 PM

So what exactly are the chances of garlic extract working on a clownfish with ich? Are the chances pretty much slim , or do I have a chance?

I can't say if it will work or not but the link I posted on immunity led me to believe that fish can develope a defense against parasites. Which fish will actually succeed is unknown, but its definately worth trying. Nate at BA's says he feeds garlic as a weekly regiment to boost immunity, though there is no real scientic evidense to support the theory, it is claimed to work.

Well said! :wink:

Lee, you seem to know a lot about fish desease, please check my new thread, I have a problem with Mr. Phooms.

Hmm...don't seem to see a post on Mr. Phooms. Can you send me the link?

:mrgreen:

danny zubot

06-24-2005, 04:34 PM

Its ready now

http://www.canreef.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17638

OCDP

06-24-2005, 04:54 PM

Ok so I have been thinking, and IF possible.. with a talk with the rents... I will try to setup a QT for my fish... I just dont know where the tank will go.... I just need to have fish to look at, 6 weeks is too long.

So, if I choose to buy the supplies for QT, hoping I can do this cheap.. I am broke... what should I treat? hyposalinity? with a hydrometer? is that risky ? seems like it could be... and I definitely can't afford a refractometer (sp)

Or would I treat with meds?? Would I treat all the fish in my tank? Or just the clowns??

**Edit** : Also, I am going to BC next Thursday and will be back on the Monday, I won't be able to get the QT up and running and start treatment until then (if I can go through with this) ... will this be OK???? I am worried it might be too long, but then again.. if I can set it up, I can get them in there by Tuesday evening.

OCDP

06-24-2005, 05:14 PM

hmm, new thought again hah... the QT will need to cycle..... right? so i pretty much am screwed even if i decide to go qt...

danny zubot

06-24-2005, 05:28 PM

Not really, I just used tank water from my main tank. I also picked up some LR rubble from Wai's to use for bio support. You don't need this if you can use some kind of etablished filter media. Even a piece or two of base rock will work fine. Consider this, it will take three days of changing out water in the Q-tank to achieve the lowered salinity. This means at least 3-4 water changes, resulting in pretty healthy water, I buys you some time.

OCDP

06-24-2005, 05:32 PM

hm well I have a 20g tank.. I mean I could take water from there, but that would be like... half the tank :razz:

Soo if I did do that, I would just be doing a nice big watercahnge on the display tank... ?

I have an Aquaclear 150 (small) on the 20g.. it has ONE small piece of sponge in there, but it hasn't been in for very long.. 3 weeks? maybe longer.. but it's fairly small.

I need to get a heater, 10g tank (can all 4 of my fish go in there?) , my hydrometer (will this work?) .... and something for flow... ?

How hard is it exactly to do the hyposalinity with a hydrometer.. makes me a little nervous.

bulletsworld

06-24-2005, 06:44 PM

I will try to setup a QT for my fish... I just dont know where the tank will go.... I just need to have fish to look at, 6 weeks is too long.

*Patience is the key to this hobby to be successful. You would need to leave your main tank to fallow for at least 6weeks or else why bother doing treatment on your fish, cause then they will go back into a tank and will become infected again. (Ich finding a host).

So, if I choose to buy the supplies for QT, hoping I can do this cheap.. I am broke... what should I treat? hyposalinity? with a hydrometer? is that risky ? seems like it could be... and I definitely can't afford a refractometer (sp)

You could perhaps ask local reefers if they have any spare supplies kicking around that you can borrow and at a later time when you have more funds you can purchase the stuff you need for a QT used on buy/sell hardware forum.

If you do treatment of Hyposalinity it’s important to use a rafractometer as the plastic hydrometers are not accurate. Since your new to Hyposalinity treatment & there is many cautions you must take and monitoring, perhaps in your case, depending on amount & type of fish you are treating (Please post me this info) As well as your not sure if its ONLY ich that you may have, then I would suggest you to go with, Coppersafe product ($10 or less at any LFS)…NOT Cupramine but “Coppersafe” Although you do need a copper test kit (NOTE: get only the test kit from Seachem to monitor this copper) , its cheaper then a refractometer by far and Coppersafe (depends of fish species being treated) Is really easy to administer when correctly following the directions on the bottle. Also what I like about Coppersafe (NOT Cupramine ) is that unlike Cupramine (falls out of solution-has to be monitored VERY closely), Coppersafe copper stays in the water for 30days after you completed the dose. Then after the 30days, you do the steps to dilute the copper in this QT but leave the fish at least for another 10days in the tank, so you can monitor the fish (Parasite Free) as well as, giving your main tank the time (6Weeks) to fallow.

If you need step by step instruction I would be happy to assist you with it over the phone. Let me know.

Or would I treat with meds?? Would I treat all the fish in my tank? Or just the clowns??

Mentioned above. Treat ALL fish! Don’t want to miss anything and also don’t want a go through it again do ya?

**Edit** : Also, I am going to BC next Thursday and will be back on the Monday, I won't be able to get the QT up and running and start treatment until then (if I can go through with this) ... will this be OK???? I am worried it might be too long, but then again.. if I can set it up, I can get them in there by Tuesday evening.

Questions for you….

1. What size tank are your fish in now?
2. Is there any inverts in there?
3. How many fish do you have?
4. What species of fish, list?
5. Are the fish all eating?
6. Do the fish show signs of lethargic breathing?
7. Do they swim close to the surface of tank?
8. Do your fish scratch on rocks or sand?
9. Do your fish dart around in tank?
10. Can you supply pictures? Perhaps will give a better idea to the severity of infection.

Also to…Forgot to mention. Yes you do NEED established media for a quarantine tank setup, that’s the MOST important part. You need this to cheat the new tank setup cycle. Although if not done properly you can experience a mini cycle. To get established media if you don’t have, you can ask fellow reefers if you can borrow established media since you’re to far from me.

More questions for you…..

1. Are you running a skimmer on your current tank?
2. How long has your tank been running for?
3. How much live rock do you have?

O.k Off to lunch I go… Will check back with ya.

:mrgreen:

danny zubot

06-24-2005, 07:08 PM

Scott, improvise man! Remember that with no fish in your main tank there is less bioload. My skimmer hasn't taken much out of my main tank since the fish have been gone. If you have a power head in the main tank I'd just put the aquaclear on the Q-tank. If you absolutely can't get your hands on a refractometer, I have an old glass lab hydrometer you can use. I'll even chart where you need to be against my refractometer for the treatment.

OCDP

06-24-2005, 07:09 PM

Okay... let me try and do this in the correct order hehe

I am aware the tank must be left fishless for 6+ weeks.. I was simply saying if I can QT them myself, I will.. so I have fish to at least look at and to have experience in removing ICH as well. Just to clarify :mrgreen:

I think I can find a 10g tank, heater, and a HOB filter for a decent price, I realize now it's critical to have, and would rather have my own at home for good.

So you think I should do coppersafe instead of hypo? I am fine with that, no problems.. just a couple questions. How effective will the coppersafe be? Will it further stress my fish (i have heard copper is hard on fish?) And I will make sure I get COPPERSAFE, COPPERSAFE, COPPERSAFE haha (knowing me I'd end up coming home with cupramine lol) And I will need a copper test kit by seachem only?? I have never seen a test kit by seachem, I don't know if I'll be able to find that?? Does it have to be seachem? (I understand it's to match the coppersafe brand with the test kit brand..)

I may take up your offer for the telephone call just to be safe, I don't want to do more harm than good. Once this is all organized, and I've broke the news to the parents..... :rolleyes: I'll let ya know !

I figured I would need to treat all fish haha, duuuuuh :redface:

Now to your questions:

1.) 20 gallon tank
2.) There is 3 snails, 2 scarlet hermits, 1 Rose bubble tip anemone, and 4 Bubble tip anemones
3.) I have 4 fish.
4.) I have, 2 true percula clowns, 1 yellow watchman goby, 1 bicolor blenny.
5.) Yes, all fish are eating (like pigs)
6.) Err... lethargic breathing? Does that mean fast? lol! If so, no not so much, haven't payed super close attention, but no.. breathing is not fast on any fish
7.) The only two that sometimes swim near the top is the clowns.. no one else. But clowns are known to do that aren't they?? They by no means at the top of the water surface all the time.
8.) No. I have not seen them do so once.
9.) No. I have not seen any dart around... only if something startles them, or the clowns are bickering.
10.) I can take photos tonight, yes (at work) .. I doubt you will see any ich on them from a photo... I have to go right up to the glass and stare to see the ICH (I honestly don't think it's that bad, YET... but im no expert)

As for the media, all reefers in Calgary seem to be on opposite ends of the city.....but I suppose that's my only option? Like I said, I have an AquaClear 150 on the 20g that has been running for a month or so with a small piece of sponge in it. I assume that's not sufficient though.

Answers to more questions ..

1.) Yes, I am running a skimmer (AquaC Remora)
2.) My tank has been up since August 23 or 24th , of last year (almost 1 year old)
3.) I would say I have about.... 20lbs. MAX... maybe 15 pounds.. hard for me to say.

And just one last quick question... fallow means, just having a fishless tank right??

Phewph I think that's it.... Lee, I owe you big time for all this help... I hope I can do this on my own, my biggest worry is finding someone close (every local reefer seems to be on opposite ends of the city as me) for media, and finding a spot for the QT.. I know I can get a 10g with what I need for under 60$ or so...

OCDP

06-24-2005, 07:11 PM

haha Danny, my brain works slow.. give me time for improvising lol

so are you suggesting to take the skimmer off the display once the fish are in QT ,and use that on the QT? And then just use a powerhead for circulation in the display?

I can do that... I am already running a Fluval 404 on the 20g.. and I have a spare powerhead now.

I think I may be trying the copper method, but if I go hypo, I will give you a shout, really appreciate the offer Danny.

Thanks for ALL of your guys's support so far.... I really would be doomed with you all.

danny zubot

06-24-2005, 07:17 PM

I think I may be trying the copper method, but if I go hypo, I will give you a shout, really appreciate the offer Danny.

If you are going to use copper, don't put anything in the Q-tank that you will want to use in the main tank after. It will transfer copper and kill your corals.

OCDP

06-24-2005, 07:23 PM

hahahaha oh wow... now see... it's a very , very good thing you told me that.

i forgot , copper is really deadly... thanks danny. told you id be doomed.

bulletsworld

06-25-2005, 12:00 AM

i forgot , copper is really deadly... thanks danny. told you id be doomed.

:eek: O.k you got me worried now.

Start here.... http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/cupramine.html

Even though this is for Cupramine by Seachem it has mainly the same principles. Also to search www.reefcentral.com under the disease forum and read many posts about copper to get the general idea of effectiveness. You can Google " Coppersafe by Mardel Lab " for info on that copper. To answer your other Q, about test kit, you can also read on Reef Central people's experiences as well as fights with the companies directly on the accuracy of the test kits. In my own experience I have come found Seachem's test kit to be the most accurate and easy to follow for to use with Coppersafe even though made by different companies.

I'm not even going to go into the chemistry difference between the two coppers (chelated copper, etc). Please read and Google and you will see.

Copper needs extreme caution and understanding to treat your fish without killing them yourself.

My suggestion would be if Bob if offering to treat them for you, I would be more likely to suggest his offer. Not only would it save you some money but also maybe the headache. I would just hate for an overdose or spike to happen or not monitor the levels and result in lossing your fish.

Also as Danny mention (Good point Danny) you do not want to add any equipment from your main tank that you want to use again. So you would leave the skimmer on the main tank.

One more thing….I noticed you mentioned you are running a 404 Fluval canister filter on you 20gal. Am I correct to say that you only have 1 small filter sponge media in your canister, even though this canister has four long slots made for sponge media on the side panel in the canister?? :eek:

:mrgreen: