Sand bed, Pros and Cons

[danny zubot]

Ok, the seed of thought has been planted in my head now that I'm moving/upgrading my tank. Should I try bare bottom? One of the issues is that I'd like to keep my manderine. Do I need a sand bed for it or will copapods grow solely in the live rock? Any other pros and cons would be appriciated. I figure now is the best time to decide.

Thanks

[mr_alberta]

What type of system are you going to be setting up? A mainly SPS system? Barebottoms are great for some types of system, but not so great for others.

[danny zubot]

Well, its mostly LPS and softies with a few SPS down the road.

[shadowboy]

I think a sandbed, even a thin one is nessesary for the physcological well being of fish. every one of my fish has an interaction with the sand bed. my wrasse sleeps in it and hunts food out of it, my goby sifts it, my angel and tang suck whatever algae there is on it. Im probaly wrong on this but I would never go bare bottom.

just a country boys opinion

tb

[mr_alberta]

If you are doing mainly LPS and softies with very few SPS, I would go with a sandbed. If you go barebottom you'd have to jack up the flow to keep detritus suspended (which your LPS and softies wouldn't like) or slow down the flow so you can suck it up off the bottom (which you SPS wouldn't like).

[Aquattro]

I think a sandbed, even a thin one is nessesary for the physcological well being of fish. every one of my fish has an interaction with the sand bed.

Well, my tangs eat the algae from my BB, so I'll have to offer a different opinion.
Really, unless you have a fish that requires sand to sleep in or sift through, it comes down to owner preference...

[StirCrazy]

One of the issues is that I'd like to keep my manderine. Do I need a sand bed for it or will copapods grow solely in the live rock?

Thanks

they live in the rock, but what you can do is take some ugly rock and break it up into 1" size chunks and make pod piles in behind your rock work for a breading ground for the bugs.

Steve

[StirCrazy]

If you are doing mainly LPS and softies with very few SPS, I would go with a sandbed. If you go barebottom you'd have to jack up the flow to keep detritus suspended (which your LPS and softies wouldn't like) or slow down the flow so you can suck it up off the bottom (which you SPS wouldn't like).

I am going to offer a different opinion on this also, with a rock structure and no sand bed you will have plenty of lower flow areas and you can even place your rock to creat areas for lower flow type corals. people think that corals will get bashed around in tanks with high turn over but this in't realy true, in high turn over tanks that have poorly though out flow patterens and or old style power heads that just blast the water then yes, but if you use bigger outlets on your return and go with tunze or Seio type power heads it will be fine. I have over a 70X turn over rate in my tank and no where in my tank is there more than a gental current, as I am moving the whole water colume not just 1/4 of it as most setups do.
I have mushrooms on my rocks and they remain still and not blasted in anyway except for the ones I have right at the outlet of my Tunze that I placed on the bottom of the tank about 4" from the rock.

you don't have to keep the crap suspended as it will find an area to settle and you can syphon it out with water changes, but it is easy to suspend it if you find that what you want to do.

Steve

[danny zubot]

I'd like to try bare bottom so I might lend my manderine to someone just until I'm convinced that I have a good pod population. I guess its easier to add a sandbed down the road then to remove one.

[Delphinus]

Does a mandarin really care if it has sand in the tank? I'm not so sure. I had scooters who would bury themselves at night but mandarins that I've kept would simply sleep on top of the sand, not in it. And I'm not so sure that having a sandbed means you have more bugs in the tank for hunting, really the best breeding grounds for bugs and pods is basically anyplace where they can't be hunted (so pod piles and / or refugia, and so on).

I used to think my fairy wrasses would care if there was no sand bed, as I used to have a C. rubriventralis who would occasionally sleep buried in the sand. Eventually he stopped doing that though, in preference for spots in the rocks that he could make a sleeping cocoon. I have never observed my C. lubbocki or my C. cyanopleura sleep in the sand either, they find nooks and crevasses to sleep in and they seem to be OK with that. So personally I've lost another reason to not abandon the sand bed since I used to say "my fairy wrasse sleeps in the sand bed."

Sand sifting gobies, and burrowing fish such as jawfish require a soft subtrate still of course. Of course in the case of a jawfish you not only require a sand bed but you require a DEEP sandbed so the fish can make a burrow with the proper depth and so on.

But as for other fish, at least, I can't imagine that any of my fish (tang, wrasses, clowns, hawkfish, blenny) care enough about the sandbed that whether it's there or not has any impact on psychological well being. I'd say rocks with hiding holes and texture is more important to them.

Now LPS though .. I always thought some LPS look better on sand. Open brain corals, plate corals, etc. I think these seem to belong on a sandbed. I suppose you could have them on a hard substrate but it seems kind of .. I dunno .. not quite right. :confused: :question:

[Beverly]

All three of my tanks are BB. The 37g is predominantly a monti cap tank, no fish/inverts. The 67g is LPS and softies, a pair of ocellaris and two cleaner shrimp. The 120g is all softies, 5 blue/green chromis and a dwarf angel I have yet to bring home. I have steered away from keeping fish that require sandbeds, cuz, well, I don't have any :biggrin:

Also, none of my tanks have skimmers, sumps or refugiums. I keep my nutrient levels down by keeping a smaller number of fish so I don't run into too many nuisance algae problems. I also keep macoralgae in each tank to eat up nutrients.

Have had my tanks BB since last summer. Would not go back to having sand.

[Funky_Fish14]

Question to everyone: Isnt our goal to replicate the natural conditions these animals live in as best as possible? I think mine is. I even put a sand bed in my coral propagation tank....though its only half an inch, its still there. It does help with bio-filtration, and I think it presents a more natural environment for everything in the tank. Also, it slowly re-leases calcium into the water which helps coral growth. I also think that what shadowboy said about the psycological well being of fish. Sure, your fish are doing fine without sand beds and eating off the bottom, but how do you know what the fish thinks of that? Maybe it would prefer to eat off sand. Its kind of like replacing all your carpet and hardwood floors in your house with gravel......how many of you would like that? I think its more natural, though some may think im wrong, but I know all of my tanks will have sand-beds. Im all for conserving natural ways.

Chris

[christyf5]

But what about those fish and corals that live on a rocky reef that goes for miles and miles??

Perhaps the fish would rather have the hardwood floors than a nice gooey algae enriched carpeting? (which is pretty much my sandbed about 95% of the time)

:wink:

[Invigor]

if you're worried about psychological well being of your fish, why do you own fish in the first place?

I don't think there are strong enough pros/cons relating between a sand bed deep or shallow and barebottom to really make a difference to the fish.

I personally have a sand bed because -I- like the look of it. I don't really care if the fish like it or not..it's not up to them. I can't sit down and negotiate living quarters with my fish, so they'll just have to live with how I like it unless they start paying the bills.

[Aquattro]

Question to everyone: Isn't our goal to replicate the natural conditions these animals live in as best as possible?

My goal, as far as livestock goes, is to provide the healthiest environment for my livestock. I do this by providing the best water quality I can. I can provide better water conditions without the sandbed collecting crap. I've done it both ways, BB is easier to keep clean.

As for the fish being happy, well, leaving them in the ocean would make them happy. I see no behavioral differences with or without sand. I can provide more flow and get more natural growth patterns from my SPS. I've arranged rock so that I can add a large hammer for my clowns to host in. I have zoos and GSP, all doing well.

Now my overall goal in reef keeping is to have a really attractive tank that I'm proud of. That fell down with a sandbed that got polluted. Now that I've setup a new tank with a BB, I'm able to actually enjoy my tank for the first time in over a year.

Now I'm all for doing what you think is right for your tank, but many people with many years of experience are now doing away with DSBs for the same reasons I've stated above. You can use sand, and it will look nice and white and natural (is there really white sugar sand beds on reefs??) but in time, you're likely to find it starts giving back things you'd rather it didn't.

But hey, I had to find all this out the hard way, so please don't let me stop you from enjoying the same experiences!! :razz:

[Funky_Fish14]

Ofcourse they would be happier in the wild, but I guess opinions differ on the sand issue. Once I move out and end up in what I hope is a Permanent Home, I would like to build a VERY large reef(5000g or so) and my goal is to make this as natural as possible. Dont worry about $$ and time, thats for later lol. Anyways, I guess:

"Opinions are like @$$holes, everybody's got one"

Hehehe. I hope thats not offensive, but im just stating that I guess it will be hard for us all to agree on the SB thing.

IMO, Sandbed all the way(though I do see and understand some of the advantages of BB).

Chris

[Aquattro]

IMO, Sandbed all the way(though I do see and understand some of the advantages of BB).

Chris

Pretty sure if you dig up my posts from a few years ago, I said the same thing. So go with sand, we'll talk again in three years :biggrin:

[StirCrazy]

Question to everyone: Isnt our goal to replicate the natural conditions these animals live in as best as possible? I think mine is.

Chris

do you realy think that the entire ocean floor is sand???? I would hazord to guess that most of it is just plain old rock.

at any rate if you look in the middle of a large reef all it is, is rock and corals, and most of the critteres that live in that area have probably never seen sand, where the chritters that live on the edges have seen it, sooo.. how do you know if sand is realy natural for the fish you bought? Also there have been several pictures of Brains, ect atached to rock on coral reefs with no sand in sight, we just assume that they are sand critters, mine actualy has the scar on the bottom where it was broken off a rock when they removed it from the ocean.

Steve

[StirCrazy]

IMO, Sandbed all the way(though I do see and understand some of the advantages of BB).

Chris

Pretty sure if you dig up my posts from a few years ago, I said the same thing. So go with sand, we'll talk again in three years :biggrin:

and I was a DSB fanatic myself :rolleyes: I can tell you that now that I have removed the sand bed, increased the flow while distrubiting it evenly throught out the tank I have 1/10th of the problems I had befor.

Steve

[Fish]

I beleive that the only reason to go with a sandbed is for aestetics or for keeping an organism with sand-specific requirements. I have done both and can tell you that a bb system will be a lot cleaner and healthier. I really don't see how having sand on the bottom of you tank is any more "natural" than having no substrate. The 1- X inches of sand that you have on the bottom of your tank isn't the ocean floor and doesn't function as one either. As for the fishes psycological well being, I'm sure that a lot of the reef fish we keep go their entire lives in the wild without having any contact with the ocean floor.
Having said that, I am planning on putting a fine sandbed in my nano. It probably won't be as healthy an environment as bb but I think it will look better in that small of a tank - JMO.

- Chad

[Willow]

most ocean floors ive looked at are mudlike not sandy.

[Troy F]

most ocean floors ive looked at are mudlike not sandy.

From what I saw in Hawaii, anywhere there were corals it was a sand bottom.

[Funky_Fish14]

Well, whatever the case may be, I've only been in this for 7 months so what do I know? Hehe.

Reef_raf, I will let you know once I decide my final opinion(well opinions are never final) on SB or BB.

However I just thought about it, I do need a SB in my tank, because:

A) My scooter blenny sleeps in it
B) My engineer goby burrows through it
C) My fungia Needs it
D) (not really valid reasons but) my clown sleeps on it leaning against a rock and my firefish uses the engineer goby's burrow as a re-treat and to sleep in.

I'll have to try a BB tank someday, but for now I think I'll stick with SB.

Quick Q. I find nassarius snails useful, and I have some in my 33, and soon to have some in my 15 I just set-up. I know they are in the sand bed most of the time, and come out when they sense food, but what do they do in a BB tank, or do you just not put them in one? Thanks.

Chris

[StirCrazy]

Quick Q. I find nassarius snails useful, and I have some in my 33, and soon to have some in my 15 I just set-up. I know they are in the sand bed most of the time, and come out when they sense food, but what do they do in a BB tank, or do you just not put them in one? Thanks.

Chris

don't buy them as they are not needed, for the record I found them to be a waist of money.

Steve

[danny zubot]

Not that I'm trying to defend or dispand any theory, I haven't quite decided on the issue yet. I just need to clarify something.
The 1- X inches of sand that you have on the bottom of your tank isn't the ocean floor and doesn't function as one either.
In fact 80% of the denitrification process of a sand bed occures in the first 3/4 of an inch of sand. If you were to ask me if a sand bed is the most efficient way to denitrify water I'd say no, water changes are. The ocean doesn't have that option though. If you asked me if a tank would stay cleaner without a sandbed I'd say yes. I haven't experienced the issues many others have in keeping a sand bed clean. I've always focussed on having a big reef crew. Ask me on moving day what I'm going to do and I'll still be undecided I'm sure. :confused:

[Aquattro]

Just some info on Nitrate...even without a sandbed, my NO3 levels are undetectable. The rock alone does a good enough job, so NO3 rduction isn't a good reason for sand either.
Really the only good reason to add sand is because you like the way it looks. A nice white sand bed does look nice, but I just did a water change, and the sludge I was able to suck off the BB for only a week gave me 2 5g pails of very dirty water. I'd hate to have that building up in my sand bed.
IF you do go for a sandbed, I'd use a gravle vac to keep it clean.

[rickjames]

I will throw my 2 cents in here. Over the weekend I moved my 30 Gallon with a 2 inch sand bed. I always hated the sand just because I couldn't do anything about the buildup of detritus and I couldn't clean the glass to close to it or I would create a sand storm. So after I had all my fishies and corals into coolers and all the water out for the move, I decided what the hey, out with the sand, in with the BB tank!

Now that I have the tank setup and all the occupants back in, I think the tank has never looked better, and everyone who has come by the house agrees! The corals have better polyp expansion, and I find that my 10K MH light looks bluer without the sand bed. I also find that it puts more emphasis on the corals and the rock as the bottom no longer attracts any attention. I was also able to bump up the water flow to about 30X turn over, and the corals seem to like it.

I couldn't see myself putting a sand bed in a tank again.
:biggrin: