problem maintaining proper parameters

[mrcopitr]

Hi ,

I seem to have a real hard time maintaining proper parameters in my 90 gal reef. (mostly LPS, softies and a few clams)

I've been using the reef chemistry calculator to help me out, but it only seems to push my PH down when I add the suggested calcium and buffers (I ues ESV B-ionic two part solutions).

my calcium has been in the 350 ppm range and the alk is in the range of 7.7 to 8.5....I've been adding the suggested quantities by the calculator, to bring the paramters where I want them (i.e calcium 400ppm and Alk to 10-11) but it only last for a few hours and then it falls back on the lower side bringing the PH down with it.
My magnesium reading are in the 1200-1250 range.

I'm also dripping kalk 24/7 (top off water), could that play a role with the unstable parameters and suggested dosing by the reef calculator.

I hope to hear your comment ....and suggestion...Thanks Marco

[KrazyKuch]

From what I have heard is that if your dripping to much Kalk it has a huge effect on your PH.....what do you mean when you say it brings your ph lower as in closer to 1 or closer to 12????

[untamed]

Dripping Kalk 24/7 is what is influencing your results. You need to carefully control how much Kalk is added in a given time period.

The inexpensive way to do it is to measure the amount into a container, then let it drip such that the container empties before 24 hours. Repeat with the same amount the next 24 hour period. This way, you always know exactly how much you've added over 24 hours. Measure your Ca/Alk so you know if you need to drip more or less Kalk.

If you are simply keeping a container full of kalk and letting it drip constantly, you're headed for trouble.

[Zerandise]

If thats the case then how does a kalk reactor work? Its feeds Kalk when ever the top off turns on. No way to measure how much kalk you are adding to your tank at any one point in time. depending on how hot or cold my house is that day I can use from 1.5 to 2.5g of top off each day. My skimmer as well plays a part in it. Sometimes it removes a fare amount of water other days not a drop. should i be trying to figure how how much it adds per day or have i got it totaly screwed up?

That would suck lol

[mrcopitr]

From what I have heard is that if your dripping to much Kalk it has a huge effect on your PH.....what do you mean when you say it brings your ph lower as in closer to 1 or closer to 12????

My Ph is around 8.2 to 8.25 during the day and it drops very rapidly to 8.0 at night ( and as PH probe are not perfectly exact..I pressume it could be even lower). Thats what I dont understand, as I drip kalk 24/7 via a mediacl pump...it should be higher...shouln't it???? plus my calcium is usually around 375ppm...so I presume I'm far from over adding kalk... (my kalk solution is made of 2 litres of ro/di water with 2 tea spoon of kalk plus a few drops of vinrgar...I drip this solution at about 200 ml per hour.

Hoping to get more point of vues on this..thanks Marco

[michika]

What do you have in your tank that is using calcium? What levels do you usually keep Ca at?

[mrcopitr]

What do you have in your tank that is using calcium? What levels do you usually keep Ca at?

I have 2 clams, coco worm, lots of lps corals and softies...

tks marco

[mrcopitr]

What do you have in your tank that is using calcium? What levels do you usually keep Ca at?

I usually had my alk at 7 to 9 dkh...and calcium at 370 to 380ppm....but I would like my range to be closer to 400 to 425 ppm for calcium and 10 to 11 for dkh??? Am I setting goals that are not necessary??? Plus when my alk is on the low side i.e. 7...my PH tends to fall rapidly.....

Tks

[michika]

I think I know what you problem is, give me a couple of minutes and I may have an answer or at least a lead for you...

[michika]

If you keep your alk between 7 and 9, you need to keep your calcium at at LEAST 425ppm/Ca. This is because if you keep your alk and Ca in balance with each other, you pH should stay the same, or in the very least fluctuate less.

[Aquattro]

First, and let's not go any further, what is the SG of your water? It should be 1.026. Next, the levels you mention aren't bad. Ca over 350 is fine and allows calcification by the things that need it. Alk is also fine, 2.2 mEq/l is natural levels. Multiply that by 2.8 for dKh. You're well above that. The reason to go higher is just a safety zone.
I drip full strength kalk 24/7, don't care how much. If my levels are off at my bi-monthly test taking, I adjust up by adding turbo calcium/baking soda, or lowering by just adding RO water for a day or two.
Finally, pH will fall and be lowest in the am before lights on, highest at night before lights out. A swing og .3 is perfectly fine and expected in a well stocked tank.

[Skimmerking]

i thought that for kalk the measurement is 1 teaspoon for every gallon of RO /DI water

that is what i have been doing or i am wrong

mike :exclaim:

[Aquattro]

Mike, I believe it's something like 1.8tsp per gallon. I use 8tsp per 5g container.

[mrcopitr]

First, and let's not go any further, what is the SG of your water? It should be 1.026. Next, the levels you mention aren't bad. Ca over 350 is fine and allows calcification by the things that need it. Alk is also fine, 2.2 mEq/l is natural levels. Multiply that by 2.8 for dKh. You're well above that. The reason to go higher is just a safety zone.
I drip full strength kalk 24/7, don't care how much. If my levels are off at my bi-monthly test taking, I adjust up by adding turbo calcium/baking soda, or lowering by just adding RO water for a day or two.
Finally, pH will fall and be lowest in the am before lights on, highest at night before lights out. A swing og .3 is perfectly fine and expected in a well stocked tank.

Hi Brad,

Tks for all the comments. My SG is at 1.025-1.026. I always believed that to be good to your reef you needed an ALK of 11-12 DKH and calcium in the 450 ppm range, I'm happy to hear that it is not necessary.

I currentlt drip kalk 24/7 (2 teaspoon in 2 litres of ro/di water) plus I dose ESV B-ionic 2 part solution daily (aprox 60 ml of each solution)...am I doing something wrong here, when I test my parameters are as follows: calcium 350 to 380 ppm, alk from 7 to 9 DKH, my ph is at around 8.2 to 8.25 at is highest..and 8.0 at its lowest...by driping kalk 24/7 at my current mix..shouldn't I see a higher PH??? also is it a good pratice to drip kalk and add the ESV 2 part solutions...or could I just get by with kalk only???

I appreciate your comments on this ..tks Marco

[Aquattro]

You could just use kalk to maintain levels, but 2 tsp /2 litre is about double what it should be. Aim for 2 tsp per 4 or 5 litres. 24/7 is fine, and unless you dump a few gallons in at once, pH won't climb too much. I'd try to rais the levels with either kent's 2 part stuff or turbo Ca and baking soda. Once the levels are where you want them, kalk should maintain it.
Your pH now is fine.

[marie]

If you are adding kalk and 60ml each of the 2 part now to maintain those levels, i don't think kalk alone will do it. I'm dripping 6L of saturated kalk and vinegar and i'm adding 20ml each of the kents 2 part to my 75g daily to maintain similar levels

[Aquattro]

whether or not kalk will do it will depend a lot on evaporation rates. I went thru 5g per day, so that much kalk was more than enough. As with anything in this hobby, YMMV. If you're evaporating 1/2g per day in a heavily stocked tank, it may not. You can figure it out mathematically by detemining what your consumption rate is over 24 hours, then determine the amount of saturated kalk you'd have to drip in the same time period to maintain levels.

[mrcopitr]

Thanks Marie and Brad for all the good input in my problem, it is really appreciated.

One last question, when you test your water for calcium and alk lets say for example at 1h00 pm, the results are not going to be the same 5 hours later? Am I right? Mine are not, they usually fall as the day goes and climb back up when I add the 2 part solution, which is plenty normal..but it does not remain there very long.

thanks again Marco

[Aquattro]

no, my Ca and alk stay constant, sometimes for weeks on end. The kalk is supposed to maintain the levels. How much evaporation do you have?
When I had to adjust withthe 2 part solutions, it would be once a month or so.

[Beverly]

From all the reading I have done recently about chemistry in a reef, I just want to point out how important it is to maintain magnesium levels along with Ca and alk. If there is depressed Mg in a system, Ca will not be utilized for coralline or stony coral growth, no matter how balanced alk and Ca are. Always figure Mg into your equation. I guess that is why the Reef Chemistry Calculator includes Mg along with Ca and alk:

http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

Remember, too, when calculating the dimensions of your tank to use the INSIDE measurements of the tank, not the outside measurements, for the Aquarium System Volume Calculator:

http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/volcalc.html

[mrcopitr]

no, my Ca and alk stay constant, sometimes for weeks on end. The kalk is supposed to maintain the levels. How much evaporation do you have?
When I had to adjust withthe 2 part solutions, it would be once a month or so.

Hi Brad,

Evaporation is about 7 to 8 litres per day. (90 gal reef plus 20 gal sump) I dose the 2 part solution daily...60 ml of each, plus the kalk....24/7....I have ajusted the the mix to 2 tea spoon per 1 gal of ro/di water.

Thanks Marco

[mrcopitr]

[quote="Beverly"]From all the reading I have done recently about chemistry in a reef, I just want to point out how important it is to maintain magnesium levels along with Ca and alk. If there is depressed Mg in a system, Ca will not be utilized for coralline or stony coral growth, no matter how balanced alk and Ca are. Always figure Mg into your equation. I guess that is why the Reef Chemistry Calculator includes Mg along with Ca and alk:

Hi Beverly,

My mg is at 1200 to 1250 ppm....so i figure within proper range....
I have used the reef calculator, but my parameters still dont remain stable with this....may be because Im also dozing kalk plus the ESV bionic 2 part solution...the calculator doesnt take into account if you dose in conjonction with kalk...

Tks Marco

[Aquattro]

Evap seems fine, you should be able to maintain levles with the kalk alone, unless you have 40 or 50 pounds of corals in there!! :razz:

I think Mg could be a bit higher (1500ppm rings a bell, maybe someone confirm?) but try to use just the kalk for top off. Make sure your kalk is ok by testing it's pH. Saturated solution should be around 12.4

what are your nitrate levels?HNO3 is a weak acid that can affect alk (and therefore Ca). Make sure it's low to non-detectable.

[mrcopitr]

Evap seems fine, you should be able to maintain levles with the kalk alone, unless you have 40 or 50 pounds of corals in there!! :razz:

I think Mg could be a bit higher (1500ppm rings a bell, maybe someone confirm?) but try to use just the kalk for top off. Make sure your kalk is ok by testing it's pH. Saturated solution should be around 12.4

what are your nitrate levels?HNO3 is a weak acid that can affect alk (and therefore Ca). Make sure it's low to non-detectable.

Hi Brad,

I probably have close to 30 pds of lps and softies( lots of lps), c clams, coco worm, feather dusters, 100 pds LR...so calcium is probably taken quite fast...

My mg is at 1200ppm...slaifert test kit says it should be in the 1300 to 1500 ppm range, so I'm on the low side..I went on the reef calculator, and to bring it to 1300 I would have to add 90 tea spoon and 270 tea spoon to bring it to 1500. What are your recommenadtions, how fast should I raise the value...90 tea spoon sounds alot...and the label on the seachem mg container says it can impact on the Ph (lower it)..

Also I just checked a new batch (24 hrs) of IO reef crystals..and the mg reading is 1200 ppm....so If I hear you right I should dose mg to raise these levels on a regular basis...I always only relied on water change (every 2 weeks 20%) to take care of that. But if a new batch of salt reads 1200ppm....no wonder my reef readings are only 1200ppm...

Brad my nitrate level are non detectable...I would of been suprise to see any level, has I dont have algae problem, plus the 2 clams probably use any level their might be...

Anxious to hear your comments on the mg...Tks Marco

[mrcopitr]

also I forgot to mention...I use phosban 24/7..could that play havoc with the parameters....

On the positive side, my clown fish lay eggs every 15 days...my corals do well, my RBTA splitted and are doing well....so I imagine everything is not bad in there....

To tell you the truth I only became interested in my values (pH, dkh, calc) whne i read that xenias neede at least a ph of 8.4 or higher to pump..mine dont at this pont.( my ph is only 8.2 to 8.25 at its best)....I think I'll just forget about the xenias not pumping.....

Marco

[marie]

If it isn't broke, don't fix it :razz:. My xenia pulses and my ph is around 8.2 at it's highest, I don't think they really know some xenia pulse and some don't :biggrin:

[Beverly]

My mg is at 1200ppm...slaifert test kit says it should be in the 1300 to 1500 ppm range, so I'm on the low side..I went on the reef calculator, and to bring it to 1300 I would have to add 90 tea spoon and 270 tea spoon to bring it to 1500. What are your recommenadtions, how fast should I raise the value...90 tea spoon sounds alot...and the label on the seachem mg container says it can impact on the Ph (lower it)..

Marco,

<EDIT>Hang on, I looked up the Seachem Reef Advantage Mg additive and it is a powder. The Kent product I used was liquid and recommended using X amount of ml of the additive. In one tank, I used 543 mls to get Mg to 1350 ppm. So I assume their calculation of using a whole whack of teaspoons is probably correct.

Also, follow the instructions of not adding it all in one day. I spread my additions over three days, adding 20, 30 or 40 mls (depending on tank size) at a time throughout each day. </EDIT>

[mrcopitr]

My mg is at 1200ppm...slaifert test kit says it should be in the 1300 to 1500 ppm range, so I'm on the low side..I went on the reef calculator, and to bring it to 1300 I would have to add 90 tea spoon and 270 tea spoon to bring it to 1500. What are your recommenadtions, how fast should I raise the value...90 tea spoon sounds alot...and the label on the seachem mg container says it can impact on the Ph (lower it)..

Marco,

I don't think they mean "teaspoons". I've used the calculator for Mg and they recommended millilitres (ml), not teaspoons. Indeed, using teaspoons would be waaaaay too much, imo. Check the calculator again to make sure Mg recommends adding it in ml.

Also, which specific Seachem Mg additive do you have?


Hi Bev,

I just went on the reef calculator (http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html) and entered tank size (95 gal), current mg 1200 ppm,desired mg 1300..product seachem....product required: 90.2 tsps; 451 grms.

and if I read the instruction on the bottle (Seachem reef advantage magnesium) this is the crystal form, thats pretty much what it comes too also....

I really dont know how fast I should add this quantity???

Thanks for all your input Beverly..it is very appreciated....

Marco

[Beverly]

I would break it down into thirds, which would be 30 teaspoons, mix it with RO and add one third each day. I edited my earlier post, so you may get an idea of how much to add at a time. I did not dump the 20 mls in all at once. I used a 10 ml large syringe and added it in dribbles where the water movement was highest and second highest.

[mrcopitr]

I would break it down into thirds, which would be 30 teaspoons, mix it with RO and add one third each day. I edited my earlier post, so you may get an idea of how much to add at a time. I did not dump the 20 mls in all at once. I used a 10 ml large syringe and added it in dribbles where the water movement was highest and second highest.


Thanks Beverly,

After reading your previous post, I've added 30 teaspoon in ro/di water of which I added half to the tank and the other half in my make up water..has Im doing a 20% water change today. I will add the rest of the 60 teaspoons in the next 2 days.

How often do you test for mg to see if it is within proper range???

Again tks for you interest ,....Marco

[Beverly]

Just started testing after I read the Mg article. Probably will test weekly or every other week. Don't really have a handle on the alk, Ca and Mg usage over the course of a week, so I may test more often initially to determine that. Might do some testing this pm.

[Beverly]

See http://www.canreef.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15105&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15 for today's test results.

[BrainVat]

I'm wondering why you need to dose limewater if you are already using a two-part additive. You are already adding calcium chloride to your aquarium as the first part of your 2-part scheme. If your tank requires more calcium, simply up the dose. Adding kalkwasser to your maintenance schedule just complicates your life unecessarily and raises your pH.

My 0.02$, that's all.

-BV