Levels way off again, help update

[danny zubot]

Water change Sunday, approx 25%, salinty 1.023-1.024, temp 82.
Mondays diagnostics: Calcium=220 ppm, Alk=2.5 meq/L, Ph=8.4
Added 40ml calcium,
Added 7 tbs CaCO2: 1 tbs CaCO to add Alk and
bring PH down.
Tuesday diagnostics: Calcium=160 ppm, Alk=7.0 Meq/L, Ph-8.6
Added the same dosage above.

What the heck is going on in my tank? 40ml of Calcium suppliment should bring it up from 220 to 300 no problem, but it went down! Why is my Ph so high? I need advice, my hard corals, zoos and anemones are suffering.

[Beverly]

Danny,

Dang, you've got to dumb it down for me to understand :redface: :lol: What are CaCO2 and CaCO in actual words?

How did you add the 40ml Ca? By dripping, adding slowly, or dumping it all in at once?

What did you mix the 7 tbs CaCO2 and 1 tbs CaCO with? Did you mix them in separate containers or in the same container, then add them to the tank? Did you add by dripping, adding slowly, or dumping it all in at once?

[danny zubot]

Sorry Marie, I always mix my additives with fresh water and then add them to my sump. The sump always needs to be topped up anyway. Usually when I add calcium I add a bit at a time but in the past I've loaded the tank with heavy doses with no ill effects. Assuming a heavy dose on 65 gallons is 40-50 mL.

CaCo2 is baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) and CaCo is washing soda (sodium carbonate). This is the Alk additive I add, a 6:1 ratio raises Alk without effecting Ph. I used a 7:1 ratio last night to try and lower my Ph, because thats what bakin soda should do. Should these be mixed separately then added? Because I usually mix them together.

Ever since I bought the bucket of IO salt I've had nothing but problems! :evil:

[mr_alberta]

Hmm, have you tried adding a little bit of vinegar to the mix? IIRC it can be used to lower pH. Don't quote me on that though. I thought I read it somewhere before...

[Beverly]

Danny,

That's the second time in a week someone has called me by someone else's name :razz: No biggie, though :mrgreen:

Do you mean you use tapwater or RO when you say "fesh water"? If using tapwater, could have something to do with it, but I can't say for sure.

Hmm.... Don't know if they should be mixed separately then added together. Do you get precip when you mix them together? If not, I would probably mix them together to save time, containers, etc.

I know you can't mix kalk and baking soda together because of precipitation.

BTW, how exactly do you make washing soda from baking soda? I know it involves heating the baking soda in the oven. But how much baking soda do you put in what kind of container in the oven, what temp do you set it at, and for how long do you bake it? I'm thinking of doing that.

[marie]

Actually that should read, sorry beverly :lol:. Test your new salt water it maybe really high in alk or calcium and it's causing it to precipitate. Is the bucket you are mixing the water in, white?

I have to learn to type faster :biggrin:

[AJ_77]

Mondays diagnostics: Calcium=220 ppm, Alk=2.5 meq/L
Added 7 tbs CaCO2: 1 tbs CaCO to add Alk and
bring PH down.
Tuesday diagnostics: Calcium=160 ppm, Alk=7.0 Meq/L, Ph-8.6

Your Monday Alk of 2.5 isn't the end of the world, and adding 7 tbsp CaCO2 ( :eek: ) put it thru the roof (7.0). Your Ca can barely register because of the high Alk now. I only add 2 tbsp baking soda at any one time into 110 gallons.

If you read those Randy H-F articles over again, you'll see that you need to bring your Ca and Alk back into balance - it's gotta be hurting things right now. Large, abrupt changes are stressful (been there done that). I would watch your anemone carefully - that's how I lost my LTA.

Normally if you add Ca supplement independently, it will affect (lower) Alk while raising Calcium. The two will be in kind of a see-saw. If you haven't done any tinkering yet today, I would make it your priority to get your Ca back up, hopefuly this should push your Alk back down at the same time.

Mind you, there are others here with more experience that will chime in soon...

(Btw, it looks like you need a balanced/2-part supplement scheme, or maybe try the Liquid Reactor - BA's has it in now at good prices. If Rich and those other guys are tight, it could help balance out your situation so that your Kalk drip will actually keep up. That's what I'm hoping for too.)

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

Agree. Abrubt changes water chemistry is generally unnatural in the ocean-coral reefs, except in the case of an environmental disaster. Next time slow is good.

Anthony

[danny zubot]

Hey everyone, thanks for your input.

Sorry for the mane mix up, I need to slow down my typing I guess. :redface:

I was totally planning to go home and test the salt I have because I just don't trust it. I don't have an RO unit so I use treated tap water which I've been accused of not letting sit long enough before putting in my tank. :redface:

When mixed together the 6:1 ratio does become cloudy but never clouds the water in the tank. Incidently I made a fresh batch of CaCa last night because the last batch was over a year old. I'm not sure if this matters though. To make it Bev, I spread the baking soda about 7-8 mm thick over a foil covered cookie sheet. Then bake at 400c for 1.5 hours. Always Ph test it after to make sure it raises, then you know you did it right.

Alan, if my Alk adjustment was too drastic it will cloak or mess with my actual Ca readings? But the Ca is still in the water its just hiding right? So if that is what happened the Alk and Ca should level off and I should get a more accurated reading over time. I really don't want to add anything else right now and it sucks becasuse I don't even want to do a water change until I've proven the salt mix.

I guess I'll just cross my fingers for now. BTW, I've ordered a pinpoint ph meter an a refractometer. I really hate liquid tests and bobbing meters.

[Beverly]

Danny,

Thank for the recipe :biggrin:

When using any kind of water for water changes (tap or RO, RO/DI), have it heated to tank temps and aerated for at least 24 hrs before adding the salt. Warm water makes the salt dissolve easier and faster. Aeration makes the water chemistry more stable and drives off any build up of unwanted gases that might be in your water delivery system. I usually heat to tank temps and aerate it another 24 hrs before using, but have occasionally used it after only an hour after salting.

If you have chlorine or chloramine in the tapwater, I'm sure you already know which products to use to neutralize them :smile:

[EmilyB]

The best way to get things back into equilibrium is with a large water change :biggrin: Then start again sir ! :biggrin:

[BCOrchidGuy]

Not letting your water sit long enough can play some games with your readings especially in cold weather. CO2 dissolved in the water can really mess things up. Aerate the water for 24 hrs and there shouldn't be any dissolved gasses or chlorine (doesn't work if your water has chloramines though). Keep us posted.

Doug

[StirCrazy]

Water change Sunday, approx 25%, salinty 1.023-1.024, temp 82.
Mondays diagnostics: Calcium=220 ppm, Alk=2.5 meq/L, Ph=8.4
Added 40ml calcium,
Added 7 tbs CaCO2: 1 tbs CaCO to add Alk and
bring PH down.
Tuesday diagnostics: Calcium=160 ppm, Alk=7.0 Meq/L, Ph-8.6
Added the same dosage above.



now the big question, have you tested your Mg levels? if this is low you will never get your Ca up, and from your readings I will guess yours is about 700 to 800 PPM instead of the 1300ppm it should be. see if a friend or a store that uses a good Mg test kit can test it for you.

Steve

[danny zubot]

I do dose magnesium but only in small amounts. I'll take a sample to BA's tonight to check it out.

[danny zubot]

Just an update, after small water changes to the tune of about 40% over the past week the levels in my tank are starting to return to normal, accept ph. Calcium is rising from 160ppm to about 300ppm as of last night, and Alk is dropping from about 10 Meq/L to around 6.5 to 7 again.
I can't seem to get my Ph back in check, as of last night it sits at around 8.8 even after all the water changes. What can I do to drop this down without adding CaCO2, which also seems to boost my Alk levels? Some of the corals are picking up but I did loose my long time BTA, poor clownfish, thankfully he has the RBTA to fall back on.

[Beverly]

Danny,

You may have seen this article before, but here it is again:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

And for good measure, an article on magnesium:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2003/chem.htm

And for EXTRA good measure, the Reef Chemistry Calculator:

http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

AND for EXTRA, EXTRA good measure, Aquarium System Volume Calculator:

http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/volcalc.html

You may be in for more water changes to drop your alk some more.

[danny zubot]

Thats a lot of reading, but from what I gather, Mg is not my problem. Definatley Alk vs. Ca.

[Beverly]

Danny,

Certainly a lot of reading. I've read those articles, and others, over and over and over. Still seems I'm learning more each time I read them :smile:

Do you know what your Mg is? It does figure into the total reef chemistry equation. But for now, you do have to deal with the elevated alk/pH in your system.

[danny zubot]

I don't know what my Mg is at, I don't have a test kit.

I've decided that my water change regiment needs to change. Even though my NH4, NO2 and NO3 are perfect, its still doesn't mean my water is perfect. I guess water changes are the easiest way to keep all levels in good standing.