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Jaws
03-01-2005, 05:10 AM
Here are some pics of the algae. Here's my old link about the subject:
http://www.canreef.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14631
Not sure why I didn't just add it to that link? Oh well.

Not the clearest pics but you should get the idea. It blows right off the rocks with a turkey baster. All the parameters are good too. The funny thing is that the corals have never looked better either. Any ideas?

http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/970Tank_007.jpg

http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/970Tank_001.jpg

http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/970Tank_002.jpg

http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/970Tank_003.jpg

http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/970Tank_008.jpg

http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/970Tank_009.jpg

http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/970Tank_006.jpg

http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/970Tank_005.jpg

Invigor
03-01-2005, 05:21 AM
looks like cyano to me :|

Aquattro
03-01-2005, 05:59 AM
not cyano, but the same thing I have in my tank, and Christy has in hers.

chrisd
03-01-2005, 05:59 AM
I have the same thing growing on my powerheads and in the back corner of the tank as well. I think it's cyano. I always try and wipe it off every so often and it comes off just like cyano. Plus those are pretty much dead spots in my tank as well.

Aquattro
03-01-2005, 06:10 AM
nope, not cyano. My whole tank is covered in it and I've dealt with it for a while. Different structure from cyano, both by sight and touch. In my tank it was/is dinos or growing with dinos. Very snotty and slimey. If you blast it with a baster, it just puffs off the surface, unlike cyano which tends to peel off in small chunks or sheets.

The second round o fit recently killed off all 60 snails in my tank, further reinforcing the dinolagellate theory...

hockey nut
03-01-2005, 07:14 AM
What is the theory?

I've seen this stuff before. Any sure fire way to get rid of it?

Jaws
03-01-2005, 09:01 AM
The second round o fit recently killed off all 60 snails in my tank, further reinforcing the dinolagellate theory...

I've noticed my snails dying one by one as well. I don't like the sounds of this. Would a sea hare take care of the algae?

Aquattro
03-01-2005, 01:52 PM
nope, if it's dinos, it's toxic to anything that eats it.

Delphinus
03-01-2005, 02:41 PM
Sure looks like dinoflagellates. :frown:

If that's what it is ... you have my deepest sympathies. It's extremely difficult to get rid of.

If you siphon it away, does it come back within a few hours? I found dinos would have an immense spread rate.

It's toxic to anything that eats it, so control is very difficult. It's basically a red tide ... I believe red tide is also caused by a dinoflagellate.

The zooxanthellae in your corals is also a dinoflagellate, so it's conceivable that conditions favourable to the scum is also good for the good stuff, which is maybe why your corals seem to look good (note - I'm just speculating). But it also means there's no silver bullet ... any kind of med that targets dinos is going to do a bad number on corals and anemones as well.

Anyhow, I've had the misfortune of having a dino bloom in my tank twice now. Both times almost caused me to tear down the tank and quit. In the end, leaving my lights off for about a week (and I mean, no lights, no actinics, no halides, no ambient sunlight, etc.) seemed to knock it back.

However I think that didn't work for Christy, so .... I'm not sure how effective it is in all cases. And of course, having no light is not good for corals and anemones that rely on light ... so ... calculated risk.

Good luck.

Jaws
03-01-2005, 05:10 PM
It definitely develops a lot more when the light is on during the day. If I blow it all of the rocks, it's back in a few hours. What would have caused this?

Delphinus
03-01-2005, 05:18 PM
I wish I knew, because I really don't ever want to go down that road again and if I knew what not to do, I'd be sure to not do it!

The first time I got them was after I had done a massive caulerpa pruning (I had foolishly let caulerpa grow in the main display). I'm not sure if it was the caulerpa releasing something noxious as it was pruned, or the disruption to the sand bed (the caulerpa had invaded the sand bed so removing the rhizome things from the sand had caused a lot of sand turnover).

The second time I got it ... I can't remember if I had done something to provoke it. It's possible I attempted a second pruning, because I can't seem to 100% eradicate the stuff out of my main display. My lesson is learnt, never put that stuff in your main display, have it in a satellite refugium or something like that (if at all).

Do you have caulerpa in your system by any chance?

Jaws
03-01-2005, 05:35 PM
nope, if it's dinos, it's toxic to anything that eats it.

My tangs seem to be eating a lot of it. Will this be harmful to them?


No caulerpa in the tank either. I did move the tank a few weeks ago however and that would have disturbed the sandbed.

Aquattro
03-01-2005, 05:49 PM
In my tank, I have what appears to be 2 types of brown algae. One the fish eat, the other they don't. The other is also what kills snails. So far I've had bubbly brown stuff in my tank for most of the last six months. Scrape it off, it comes back in hours. Disturbing the substrate seems to increase it, so that's likely what has caused your outbreak.

Delphinus
03-01-2005, 05:49 PM
I have no idea, sorry. My tang is still with me after living through both times having dinos in the tank, but I never noticed him sampling the stuff. .. Snails, however, would literally drop dead, I lost a LOT of snails both times.

Delphinus
03-01-2005, 05:53 PM
Do you have a calcium reactor? How old is the media in it?

Jaws
03-01-2005, 06:15 PM
No calcium reactor. I'm planning on moving the contents of this tank into my 180G within the next month or so though. Would this be a bad idea with the condition it's in?

michika
03-01-2005, 06:18 PM
I'm having the same problem and its getting worse. I'm extremly worried because the more I syphon off the more comes back. Its spreading extremly fast, as in to a new rock every day.

So while many people have this nobody knows how to get rid of it?

I'm really worried this morning it started encrusting on my acroporas, and its working its way towards my clam!

I haven't seen any snail death as of yet, but I do not have many snails in my tank at this time.

KrazyKuch
03-01-2005, 06:33 PM
Here are some pics of what we have!!!

http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/1407Tank_010-med.jpg
http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/1407Tank_008-med.jpg
http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/1407Tank_007-med.jpg
http://www.canreef.com/photopost/data/500/1407Tank_006-med.jpg

Aquattro
03-01-2005, 07:06 PM
Here are some pics of what we have!!!



That's certainly cyano, very different from this brown goop. I would buy cyano if I thought it would out compete this brown stuff.

michika
03-01-2005, 07:26 PM
So suggestions on how to get rid of what KrazyKuch and I have?

We are using RO water now, will that help?

Delphinus
03-01-2005, 07:28 PM
No calcium reactor. I'm planning on moving the contents of this tank into my 180G within the next month or so though. Would this be a bad idea with the condition it's in?

I actually had to move houses during my second infestation. I mean, it's not like you have the option to wait to move the tank ... Anyhow, I don't know if it was the disruption that the tank move caused, or the fact that it took me about a week to get my halides up and running again (what with all the other things I was focusing on); but after the move the dinos were gone.

So ... tough call. Move the stuff and chance it that it spreads to the new tank, or, hope that the new environment doesn't have whatever-it-is that causes favourable conditions for their rampant plaque-ness...

Jaws
03-01-2005, 08:17 PM
Right now I have a 4or 5" sandbed in my 90G and I only plan on having a 1" sandbed in the 180G and that's only in areas where there isn't any live rock. The equipment that i'm using in the new tank is top of the line too. Hopefully that will make a difference. I don't know what to do about my refugium though. Almost every refugium that i've seen has a sandbed but then like Brad says, it's just another nutrient sponge. There's got to be a way to battle dinos. It's not like it's a new problem and there seems to be a number of people with the same problem.

BCOrchidGuy
03-01-2005, 08:25 PM
Wasn't there a thread about this a year or so ago, didn't the Sprung book recommend a reduced photoperiod. IE no light for 48 hrs and then minimal light for the next week gradually increasing?
I know they recommend dropping a snail on it to find out if it's Dino's, the dino's sting the snail and it dies pretty much instantly but I don't see how that's thought of being reef friendly.

http://www.algone.com/dinoflagellates.htm
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/showquestion.php?faq=2&fldAuto=14
http://www.reefs.org/library/article/t_crail.html

Doug

Jaws
03-01-2005, 08:30 PM
I'm pretty sure it's dinos. Since it's showed up, I can only see one surviving snail and he hasn't moved in a few days. He's just staying on the same spot on the glass. When you say no light, do you mean no light at all or just turn off the MH's?

BCOrchidGuy
03-01-2005, 08:35 PM
I did an edit after a quick google search and added 3 links the last one says no light for 24 Hrs etc etc.. hope it helps.

Doug

Jaws
03-01-2005, 08:52 PM
I did an edit after a quick google search and added 3 links the last one says no light for 24 Hrs etc etc.. hope it helps.

Doug

Those links are pretty good. I'll reduce the photoperiod, but i'll need to get some kalkwasser and maybe a phosphate reactor.

Aquattro
03-01-2005, 08:59 PM
I did an edit after a quick google search and added 3 links the last one says no light for 24 Hrs etc etc.. hope it helps.

Doug

Those links are pretty good. I'll reduce the photoperiod, but i'll need to get some kalkwasser and maybe a phosphate reactor.

Certainly worth a shot, but it didn't help with mine. I did get rid of it for about a month, but it came back stronger than before. I'm now setting up my new tank with all new rock, bleached equipment, etc.
And fwiw, top end equipment won't give you any advantage. Less light, less food, more circ, more alk, and lots of luck.

Remember my first response you said you didn't like? :razz:

christyf5
03-01-2005, 09:45 PM
Hehe, BCOG, yep there was a thread about it a year ago. That was ME :razz:

Jaws,

I can sympathize with you. I've been sporadically fighting this @#^%! since April of last year. It only ever disappears for about a month at a time. Just enough time for a new crop of yellowy algae to grow and a new batch of snails to be introduced before they're all wiped out by the next wave of dinos.

Here are the things I've tried that didn't really work:

water changes/no waterchanges - it didn't seem to matter

decreased photoperiod (down to about 6 hours)/actinics only(12hrs/6hrs/2 hrs)/no photoperiod (including blankets over the tank) - 7 days seems to do the trick in some cases (also cures that nasty SPS problem as well :rolleyes:) but they are only gone for a week or so)

increased alkalinity via Calcium reactor/kalkwasser

increased pH (to about 8.6) - at this point I had no corals to worry about

increased skimming - well as much as my skimmer could handle (time for a new skimmer :mrgreen: )

turkey basting/carbon/filter floss to catch particulates - not so good, not only is it labor intensive but a complete waste of time as they're back in a couple of hours

increasing flow - swapped out 2 MJ1200s for 2 802s and bought a 3/4"seaswirl which runs off my mag 9 return pump

replaced sandbed - I currently have a 1" sandbed instead of 2-3". Of course this involved me tearing the tank down and scrubbing all the rocks etc. etc. (as Tony mentioned, a serious upset to the tank can sometimes drive the little buggers off) however the dinos were back in about 3 weeks.

adding ROWAPHOS - I like to think its helping out but I'm not holding my breath, either it helped out really slowly or it just helped me relieve my pocketbook of alot of money :razz:

chemipure - see above

replaced Ca reactor media

Eventually I just gave up and let them do their thing. Magically they disappeared (just enough to tick me off after all that work). Of course they have come back since then. Currently I am in a dinoflagellate free period (since jan 18th) and am just about done with the yellow goo that is tasty to snails. I have absolutely no idea what I've done right this time. I just finished up my expected caulerpa bloom which always follows the snail pigout and am pretty sure my tank is gearing up for another round. I'll place my bets on sometime within the next 2 weeks.

I did talk to Eric Borneman about this. He speculated that it could be some sort of toxin from caulerpa (caulerpines or something??) that could be contributing to the bloom since I prune caulerpa usually right before the dinos return. But I've talked to a few people that have dinos and no caulerpa so who knows?? :rolleyes:

Good luck!

Christy :)

clownchick22
03-01-2005, 10:37 PM
Oh how confusing this topic is! lol
So many algeas so little info on how to determine what is what...
:eek:
I think I have Diatoms (tank is cycling now), and wiped it all off the glass, seems to be growing back very slow on the glass, but all over my sand..
:(

Delphinus
03-01-2005, 11:29 PM
When you say no light, do you mean no light at all or just turn off the MH's?

No light at all is better.



the last one says no light for 24 Hrs etc etc.. hope it helps.


FWIW ... I was chicken to try the lights-out thing at first. So I first only tried 24 hours. Nope, only dented them, they were back full-force within a day or two. 48 hours was better, but still didn't cure it. Go without light for as long as you can possibly stomach it. It's hard, it's really hard, your impulse is to let the lights go back on.

Beverly
03-02-2005, 12:57 AM
I am following this thread with fear and trepidation :eek:

Good luck to you folks :smile:

danny zubot
03-02-2005, 05:20 PM
Hey Jaws, sorry to hear about the dinos. If you have considered a no-photoperiod cure before you move the contents you might also try a freshwater dip for your corals. Doing this would alow you to move them right into the 180 without harming them with no light. Then you should be able to leave your current tank in the dark for 10 to 14 days to really make sure the dinos are dead. Just my opinion

Bob I
03-02-2005, 05:27 PM
I am following this thread with fear and trepidation :eek:

Good luck to you folks :smile:

I hope more people publish their findings. It would be great to find a common factor so the rest of us can avoid this blight. :cool:

Beverly
03-02-2005, 05:35 PM
I'm wondering if the dinos appear in mainly sps tanks or in tanks where there is a combination of soft, lps and sps.

christyf5
03-02-2005, 06:01 PM
FWIW, I had a mixed tank. Frogspawn, hammer, zoos, leathers, sps frags. The only things that survived were the zoos and a porites frag.

Christy :)

Willow
03-02-2005, 06:03 PM
i guess a sea hare wouldnt eat that stuff hey?

Delphinus
03-02-2005, 06:10 PM
Well, I don't know. The thing is, the two times I went through it, I lost almost my entire snail population each time. I can't imagine a sea hare would fare any differently unfortunately, since they're basically snails still..

BCOrchidGuy
03-02-2005, 07:43 PM
Dino's are a protazoa(Sic??) with a flagellate (tail like structure) that they propel themselves with. They contain neurotoxins and they thrive on nutrient rich water and light (most contain zooxanthellae). They do not consume silicates like diatom algae nor do they use irons etc.
I'd consider cutting my photoperiod and removing as much organic material from the aquarium as possible for as long as you can stand. Don't just do a water change but clean under all your rock, clean/rinse out your rock etc. Rinse your gravel/sand etc and see how that goes.
I'm only repeating what I've read in the last couple of days, I really haven't got a clue was just curious and wanted to see what information was out there.

Doug

Bob I
03-03-2005, 12:56 AM
Do we know of any links to such things as Life History, Life Cycle, Food Consumed etc, etc. :question:

Beverly
03-03-2005, 01:23 AM
Here's a page with some info and lots of links:

http://www.geo.ucalgary.ca/~macrae/palynology/dinoflagellates/dinoflagellates.html

christyf5
03-03-2005, 01:24 AM
Here are all my links for Dinoflagellates that have been helpful.

Todd Crail's Dino Page: Treating Dinoflagellates (http://www.reefs.org/library/article/t_crail2.html)
Another excellent battle of the dinoflagellates page (http://www.reefs.org/library/article/t_crail.html)
Ron Shimeks page on dinoflagellates (referenced in the above article) (http://web.archive.org/web/20020815114305/www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1998/nov/wb/default.asp)
University of Calgary link (http://www.geo.ucalgary.ca/~macrae/palynology/dinoflagellates/dinoflagellates.html)


This one cracked me up! At first I thought who would deliberately want to grow these at home?? :eek: After clicking on the link, they're actually pretty darned cool! I wish the crappy dinos I had were bioluminescent, at least they would be better to look at than brown goo. Growing Dinoflagellates at Home (http://www.lifesci.ucsb.edu/~biolum/organism/dinohome.html)

BCOrchidGuy
03-03-2005, 12:46 PM
Sounds like a hobby for Homer, look Marge we've got brown snot.. WOO HOOO

Doug

Beverly
03-03-2005, 12:50 PM
:rofl:

Jaws
03-04-2005, 06:21 PM
Well, It's been about 4 days now. I turned all the lights off for the first day and a half and have been running just actinics on the tank for the past couple days. The algae is almost all gone from what I can see but that doesn't mean that it won't come back when the lights come back on. I've been keeping my alk and pH up too. I noticed that my snails have stopped dying too. Haven't seen one drop in 3 days now. Hopefully i'm one of those great success stories and I beat dinos in a matter of a few days but I doubt i'm that lucky. I did notice a bunch of very thin, orange, threadlike structures growing on the sand and amongst the rock in certain places too. Is this part of the dinos or something completely different. I'll keep everyone posted.