One of the Reasons I Don't have a Sump

[Beverly]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=531525

Poor guy :eek:

[Aquattro]

Just a freak accident. And I notice that there are muliple holes in that tank.
Certainly not a case for not drilling a tank. I can show you more threads on devastation caused by heaters, but nobody chooses to not use heaters.

[Murminator]

WOW I was just looking to see if the guy lives in Stony Plain sounds familiar huh Ed? :lol:

[Saltysteve]

Holy smokes :sad:
I had a power outage where I live this morning. I could not believe how fast my tank started to drain. I'm lucky though, mine is drilled in the back pain so it stopped emptying 2 inches from the top !
Scary stuff!
You don't hear about it too often though!

[muck]

Holy smokes :sad:
I had a power outage where I live this morning. I could not believe how fast my tank started to drain. I'm lucky though, mine is drilled in the back pain so it stopped emptying 2 inches from the top !
Scary stuff!
You don't hear about it too often though!
You don't have a hole to break the syphon drilled in your return line..? :confused:

[Beverly]

Brad,

I, too, have read about horror stories regarding faulty heaters and, yes, I still use heaters but feel pretty sure I am safe because my tanks are grounded.

Anyway, can you tell me if a heater, or anything else electrical, in one of my tanks malfunctions, what kind of damage I would incur with a grounded tank? I know if the malfunction happened during the night, my tank would completely shut down. With lack of O2 and water movement, I would assume some/lots of stuff would die. But if it happened during a time I was home and the down time would be only a couple of hours, what would the initial electric shock, before the tank shut down, do to the inhabitants of my tank? In your opinion, that is.

[StirCrazy]

Brad,


Anyway, can you tell me if a heater, or anything else electrical, in one of my tanks malfunctions, what kind of damage I would incur with a grounded tank? .

considering most of the heaters on the market fail ON, you would boil the fish, the corals, the rock, ect and you would lose everything like I did. :evil:

as for the thread, bad choice of where to drill it coupled with an unsupported bottom. all that don't support a tank with trim is bunk if you use a foam that will take out the irregularities it only adds to the strength and resistance to cracking. but bulkheads drilled along the middle are just bad, you can see the progression in the pic, the two closest to you started it and the shift caused the 3rd to be included. so you have an unsupported bottom, with rock pilled over the weakest point and nothing to resist the localized downward force..

at any rate a lot more heaters, overflows, ect have caused floods than tanks breaking because of being drilled. :exclaim:

Steve

[BCWolfen]

Wow, that would be terrible to come home to. I would never have used a tank with holes drilled that far from the edges myself....not in the bottom. My current tank has the 2 corner overflows, but even then there is another piece of glass siliconed into the overflow and the hole is drilled through both, providing more support.

Still scary....

[Coldwater]

Makes me think about building a sump. But then again what are the chances of that happening.

Matt

[Aquattro]

But then again what are the chances of that happening.

Matt

With a typical corner drilled tank, slim to none. More on the none side actually...

[Aquattro]

Bev, as Steve said, it's more an overheating issue than an electrical issue with heaters.
And ironically, the only tank I ever had drain was the one tank I've owned without a sump. The external filter got a loose connection, and drained 90g of SW into my carpet.

[Willow]

what does unsuported bottom mean? i can see the plastic surround on the bottom, isnt that the support? my 90 is euro braced around the top but i don't have any cross pieces in the bottom.. what am i missing?

[Aquattro]

Some people think that you should have a full platform under your tank. Personally I don't, I think support around the edges is fine. That's how my tank is and all the water has stayed in so far. :razz:

[Beverly]

considering most of the heaters on the market fail ON, you would boil the fish, the corals, the rock, ect and you would lose everything like I did. :evil:

Geez, I remember that :cry: It was during a summer heatwave, too, wasn't it? Makes me want to check the temp of my tanks daily :eek:

[monza]

I think it was the way that tank was supported for sure, look at the pictures it just doesn't make sense the way it was done. IMO it should have been supported under the entire surface of the tank.

I would not let that thread sway you to have a sump or to drill or not drill.

Dave

[Willow]

Some people think that you should have a full platform under your tank. Personally I don't, I think support around the edges is fine. That's how my tank is and all the water has stayed in so far. :razz:

so if there was a full sheet of plywood under the tank then that would be considered supported as aposed to a metal framed stand that only supports the edges?

[BCOrchidGuy]

If you're going to put a sheet of Ply under your tank go the extra step (and it's cheap) and put a sheet of foam insulation down between the tank and the ply. The foam will support the tanks actual glass bottom and if the ply warps or does anything else funny the foam will absorb it.
The heater issue is why some people like to use two smaller heaters rather than one that's rated for the tank, IE rather than a 250 use two 150s. Most heaters are recommended on the idea that you need to raise the tank temperature by (I think) 5-10 degrees, so they recommend 5 watts/gallon. This means a 5 watt heater that's rated for a 10 gallon tank shouldn't work on a 27 gallon tank but as long as the air is room temp and the tank isn't a discus tank, the 50 will work nicely. I used a 250 on my 150 gallon and it was great. I've got a 10 gallon tank I'm using as an incubator in another room and a 25 watt heater is holding the water in there at 95+ degrees.

Doug

[KrazyKuch]

Brad,


Anyway, can you tell me if a heater, or anything else electrical, in one of my tanks malfunctions, what kind of damage I would incur with a grounded tank? .

considering most of the heaters on the market fail ON, you would boil the fish, the corals, the rock, ect and you would lose everything like I did. :evil:


And some times worse can Happen I have had a heater exploded before and release a brown cloud of death through the water!!

[Saltysteve]

You don't have a hole to break the syphon drilled in your return line..?
I have not yet read about this! Could you explain :biggrin:

[ron101]

as for the thread, bad choice of where to drill it coupled with an unsupported bottom. all that don't support a tank with trim is bunk if you use a foam that will take out the irregularities it only adds to the strength and resistance to cracking.

Those are my thoughts as well. Regardless of how the connections are configured, the bottom pane supports the vertical load and the sides hold the water laterally. I can't see how a foam insert below the bottom pane would not be a benefit. What is supposedly happening with the forces in the opposite scenario?

But yeah, just about the worst place to drill the bottom pane, right in the middle...

[Cap'n]

As previously stated; bad location, bad support, bad luck.

[rusty]

The foam will support the tanks actual glass bottom and if the ply warps or does anything else funny the foam will absorb it.
I had a tank that sat on plywood to support the bottom there was no trim on the tank so the glass sat directly on the wood. The wood warped and the tank cracked :eek: I really like having ridgid foam under the tank. Muck used some really good foam under his tank http://www.canreef.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11702
I really like this stuff its soft enough to absorb irregularities in the wood but firm enough to support the tank :smile:

[megatron_55]

First off . . . His first mistake is drilling 3 holes at the bottom of the tank . . . 1 is at best 2 makes the bottom a little stressed but It can still hold as long as they are far apart from each other but 3 that close together :eek: !!! You can still have the luxury of having a sump or fuge with out drilling your tank . . . Thats why they invented external overflow boxes ... Yes they are expensive. . . yes they take space at the back of your tank but look what it could have prevented . . . tsk tsk tsk . . . Anyhow. . . anyone know what size that tank is . . . dimensions??? I want a tank like that! shallow but long . . . Thanks!

[Rikko]

With that type of tank there's really no point in having a full sheet of plywood covering the bottom unless you have a foam there to actually pad the glass against the stand. Otherwise it does absolutely nothing - no weight is resting on the sheet of wood. I don't even think it's necessary - looks like a freak accident to me. What I'd be more interested in is how tight he cranked those bulkhead fittings on (that's a fair bit of pressure on the glass right there.. I'd sooner slightly hand tighten with a silicone seal than just brute force it) and what kind of forces were applied to the pipes attached to that fitting. Some geniuses will put a tremendous amount of piping running away from a bulkhead which adds several pounds of pressure persistently pushing against the glass... Geniuses like me.. Who just leave it because they want to see how long it takes for a failure to happen. Ever seen the plumbing in J&Ls fish only tanks? Looks like 2" PVC running down from the bulkhead, then across, then down again into the next tank. Problem? The design is great, but I cringe every time I look at it. If anybody were to smack that piece of PVC that tank would shatter.

Poor bastard, though. :(

[StirCrazy]

considering most of the heaters on the market fail ON, you would boil the fish, the corals, the rock, ect and you would lose everything like I did. :evil:

Geez, I remember that :cry: It was during a summer heatwave, too, wasn't it? Makes me want to check the temp of my tanks daily :eek:

nope during the month of december, well maybe a heat wave compared to what you guys were getting in december :mrgreen:

Steve

[Doug]

With that type of tank there's really no point in having a full sheet of plywood covering the bottom unless you have a foam there to actually pad the glass against the stand. Otherwise it does absolutely nothing - no weight is resting on the sheet of wood. I don't even think it's necessary - looks like a freak accident to me. What I'd be more interested in is how tight he cranked those bulkhead fittings on (that's a fair bit of pressure on the glass right there.. I'd sooner slightly hand tighten with a silicone seal than just brute force it) and what kind of forces were applied to the pipes attached to that fitting. Some geniuses will put a tremendous amount of piping running away from a bulkhead which adds several pounds of pressure persistently pushing against the glass... Geniuses like me.. Who just leave it because they want to see how long it takes for a failure to happen. Ever seen the plumbing in J&Ls fish only tanks? Looks like 2" PVC running down from the bulkhead, then across, then down again into the next tank. Problem? The design is great, but I cringe every time I look at it. If anybody were to smack that piece of PVC that tank would shatter.
:(

Sounds like what I was thinking also. :smile:

[Doug]

First off . . . His first mistake is drilling 3 holes at the bottom of the tank . . . 1 is at best 2 makes the bottom a little stressed but It can still hold as long as they are far apart from each other but 3 that close together :eek: !!! You can still have the luxury of having a sump or fuge with out drilling your tank . . . Thats why they invented external overflow boxes ... Yes they are expensive. . . yes they take space at the back of your tank but look what it could have prevented . . . tsk tsk tsk . . . Anyhow. . . anyone know what size that tank is . . . dimensions??? I want a tank like that! shallow but long . . . Thanks!

Actually more tank overflows with externals than drilled tanks. I have never trusted anything that has to go up before down. :smile: But I know they are widely used.

[Doug]

You don't have a hole to break the syphon drilled in your return line..?
I have not yet read about this! Could you explain :biggrin:

Drill a small hole, {about 1/8in.}, in your return line. Some drill just below the water line and some just above, depending on what your sump can hold. Drill it on a slight upwards angle, so the water squirts down into the tank.

Clean any build up from the hole, by poking it clean on a regular basis. If the pump shuts down, the siphon break hole will break the siphon, shutting down the back flow of water.



Usually. :biggrin:

[danny zubot]

Eveything that needs to be said has been said here...what a pity though. :neutral:

[LostMind]

Well, I fail to see how having a sump caused the failure in the tank. His sump looks fine :)

[BCOrchidGuy]

If I'm not mistaken she's saying, I don't want to deal with drilled tanks or overflows, to much risk. The sump didn't have anything to do with it but if there was no sump there would be no reason for all the holes in the tank.

Then again maybe I misunderstood (again)

Doug

[Saltysteve]

Drill a small hole, {about 1/8in.}, in your return line. Some drill just below the water line and some just above, depending on what your sump can hold. Drill it on a slight upwards angle, so the water squirts down into the tank.

Clean any build up from the hole, by poking it clean on a regular basis. If the pump shuts down, the siphon break hole will break the siphon, shutting down the back flow of water.

Thanks!
I drilled my tank 2 inches down from the top :cry:

[Beverly]

If I'm not mistaken she's saying, I don't want to deal with drilled tanks or overflows, to much risk.

Doug, you nailed it :cool: Of course, there are many disasters without a sump that I can look forward to, one of which sadly happened last week :frown: The only good thing about tank disasters is that we can all learn from them. I hope.

[megatron_55]

Actually more tank overflows with externals than drilled tanks. I have never trusted anything that has to go up before down. :smile: But I know they are widely used.

?? Listen to yourself :silly: Anyhow . . . if you do your research there are some overflow boxes that has a pump so that there is no syphon break when a power outage occurs . . . EVER!! . . . Or you can DIY as long as you now which pump will work . . . RESEARCH IS KEY IN THIS HOBBY . .

Thanks for coming out . . . :drinking:

[mr_alberta]

?? Listen to yourself :silly: Anyhow . . . if you do your research there are some overflow boxes that has a pump so that there is no syphon break when a power outage occurs . . . EVER!! . . . Or you can DIY as long as you now which pump will work . . . RESEARCH IS KEY IN THIS HOBBY . .

Thanks for coming out . . . :drinking:

How does the pump run when the power goes out? :confused:

[Aquattro]

?? Listen to yourself :silly: Anyhow . . . if you do your research there are some overflow boxes that has a pump so that there is no syphon break when a power outage occurs . . . EVER!! . . . Or you can DIY as long as you now which pump will work . . . RESEARCH IS KEY IN THIS HOBBY . .

Thanks for coming out . . . :drinking:

Hmm, pretty rude post. Hope Doug has a better sense of humour than me.... :rolleyes:

[Doug]

?? Listen to yourself :silly: Anyhow . . . if you do your research there are some overflow boxes that has a pump so that there is no syphon break when a power outage occurs . . . EVER!! . . . Or you can DIY as long as you now which pump will work . . . RESEARCH IS KEY IN THIS HOBBY . .

Thanks for coming out . . . :drinking:

Hmm, pretty rude post. Hope Doug has a better sense of humour than me.... :rolleyes:

No, not really and I just edited my two paragraph answer. Whats the sense. :rolleyes:

[eddie holland]

ya its all fun and games till a fellow reefer looses a tank.mucks spidy sences must be going off now (free stuff cant hold back)anyway it does suck. but my basement is being work on now. and new tank on order
muck pm me i need some info from ya if its free :lol:
thanks ed

[Willow]

there are probably hundreds of thousands of tanks drilled using sumps over the years. its just a matter of proper planning, setup and plumbing that keeps them from breaking and flooding. whatever the risks are i would much rather have the benefit of my sump rather than hanging crap all over the inside and outside of my tank. when you get into bigger sized setups it's pretty much unavoidable that you are going to need a sump for all the larger equipment.

[Delphinus]

if you do your research there are some overflow boxes that has a pump so that there is no syphon break when a power outage occurs . . . EVER!! <snip> . . . RESEARCH IS KEY IN THIS HOBBY . .


These types of overflows do not, in fact, have a lower failure rate than others.

Never say never.

[LostMind]

If I recall correctly, Pikey's bottom glass was drilled for a closed loop, not sump return.

But yah, I thought putting holes in the bottom pane of glass is strange. Who wants to tempt fate that much?

[mr_alberta]

Should I be worried? I have 3 holes drilled in the bottom of my tank (2 for 3/4" bulkheads and a single 1" bulkhead). My tank is ~50G cube (24"x24"x23.5") made with 1/2" glass, BB and about 40lbs of rock. There is no trim on the tank, and it is a floating bottom style tanks. I don't have foam or plywood under the tank either.

[Aquattro]

Should I be worried?

No, you'll be fine.

[muck]

Should I be worried?
I'd be sweating buckets if I were you... :razz:

[Willow]

But yah, I thought putting holes in the bottom pane of glass is strange. Who wants to tempt fate that much?

why is that strange? every reef ready tank is drilled on the bottom.

[muck]

But yah, I thought putting holes in the bottom pane of glass is strange. Who wants to tempt fate that much?

why is that strange? every reef ready tank is drilled on the bottom.
nope. mine is out the back... :mrgreen:

[Willow]

you bought a predrilled tank from a shop with holes in the back or you had the holes drilled to speck? big diffrence.

[muck]

I got the holes drilled locally. :cool:

[LostMind]

to clarify - I thought it was strange to have that many holes in the bottom of your tank. I think putting drains thru the bottom is great... ease of plumbing and all that. But I'd get scared if I had a bunch of holes in my tank bottom. 1 or 2 I am cool with.... 5 or 6? tempting fate too much :)

[Fish]

?? Listen to yourself :silly: Anyhow . . . if you do your research there are some overflow boxes that has a pump so that there is no syphon break when a power outage occurs . . . EVER!! . . . Or you can DIY as long as you now which pump will work . . . RESEARCH IS KEY IN THIS HOBBY . .

Thanks for coming out . . . :drinking:

Ironically, before I went with a drilled overflow I did A LOT of research into external overflow boxes and the consensus is that the designs that incorporate the powerhead pump to prevent siphon break are NOT the reliable ones because they 'depend' on the pump to come back on after a power outage - and they don't always come back on (eg CPR). The more reliable models are those that don't depend on a pump to function properly (eg Life Reef or Amiricle). Just wanted to correct that for anyone who might be in the market. The second type of overflow box is safer, and a drilled tank is safe'est, but no design is 100%.
I do agree that research is key in this hobby though :razz:

I think that the glass was probably too thin for a drilled tank bottom. My 20gal is built with 3/8" glass 'cause I was worried about it when I was away (probably over-kill though). This guy obviously had concerns himself because he was checking the bottom every day - not normal behavior. A good lesson to all of us though. If there is something in your system that has you fretting constantly, best fix it while you still can - even if it is over-kill. After all, this "relaxing" hobby is stressful enough! :smile:

- Chad

[Psyire]

I agree. His bottom pane was 5/8", this should have been 3/4" if he was going to put 3 holes in the center of it. I personally think a tank of this size should have full bottom support, perimeter support should be reserved for 75-120g max. He also added horizontal piping off each of his drilled holes creating even more 'uneven' stress on the glass. It's a sad situation but he's made the best of it and is still in the game with his new 120.

What I find strange is that it ran fine for almost 5 months before he had a problem, I would have thought failure would have occured within 2.