How long do u acclimate new fish? & SAD story to follow.

[bulletsworld]

Wondering how long do you acclimate your new fish for? :question: Not inverts, JUST FISH.... As inverts it depends on invert.


Ever since I've known you float new bag in tank to equalize temperature in the bag with the temperature in your tank. Also to turn off the tank lights while the fish are floating to ease stress. Then open the bag, clipping to side of tank, while dripping water from my tank into the bag to accustom the new arrival to the pH and salinity of your main tank. I do this for the next 45mins to an hour. Depending how off the salinity & PH is in the bag.

What procedure do you do?


Tell you why I'm asking.... Bought a Powder Brown Tang. Looked healthy although really shy. Bought it off a guy that runs a basement saltwater business here in Edmonton (no names) So I buy this PBT, drive it right home, float the bag, turn off the lights. I notice this tang is breathing really hard so I open the bag clip to tank, added a small air stone to help oxygenate the water for its breathing. Then tested the bag water with rafractometer...YIKS..Salinity was 1.016...very low compared to my reef tank sitting at 1.026. So I start dripping tank water despite the tang wanting to get outta the bag, flipping around, still breathing heavy and then as I'm dripping my tank water in the bag, I notice...the tang going on its side. Confused thinking is it like my regal where it seems to do that when it tries to hide? I checked the salinity it gone up only to 1.018 in bag. I watched the tang as it starts to slow down breathing and you'll never guess what! The tang died! Right before it died it went into a convulse on its side & died! WHAT? HUH? This has NEVER happened to ME in all my reefer years!
It hadn't even been an hour time that the bag floating in the tank! O.k so VERY confused!

Even though I barely dripped any of my tank water in the bag, I grabbed a sample of the bag water & my reef tank & tested for Ammonia, Nitrates & PH. My tank PH was 8.3, no ammonia & undetected nitrates. Also tested the bag water same time. The ammonia was high 1.6 & the PH was really low 7.7 not to mention the nitrates were through the roof! HUH? Can a fish create an ammonia spike immediately after it dies? :question:

So I tell this guy I bought it off of. Just so devastated by the loss of this beautiful fish... Guess what the guy says to me. It’s my fault that I acclimated the fish. Yup, he says that it stresses the fish out way to much, stating he NEVER acclimates the fish. When they come in from the Caribbean he just take them outta their bags right away and dumps them in his tanks. YIKS! :eek: :eek: HUH? But I told him the salinity is way off the average reef. He says nope that doesn't mater. He says, had I of not acclimated my fish & just dumped it in as soon as I got home the fish would still be alive today. :eek: :eek:

So I'm wondering.... Has anyone tried this? :question: I just can't see that being right? I know inverts wouldn’t make it if you just dump them in. But am I wrong to do my steps above? Or is this something that completely stresses the fish out to DEATH? Can't a fish go into Osmotic shock if the temps, water PH & salinity are WAY off? :question: What do you think killed the fish before even getting the chance to enter my tank? Since this guy claims there is no way he got high ammonia in the tank water his tanks? Or is a Powder brown tang just hard to acclimate? I'm confused. :sad:

Looking for any thoughts? And how do you acclimate your fish?

Thanks a bunch in advance everyone

[Reef_kid]

Every pet store i have ever been at or worked at has used acclimation procedures like that of JL AQUATICS.
i would never risk dumping any fish right into any tank
expecialy a PBT. so it may work for the guy you got it from? unless he stated this to you to specificaly do befor you left
its just general knowlage that you do what you did with your new fish
i would be back at his doorstep wanting a new fish!!

dave

[muck]

So I tell this guy I bought it off of. Just so devastated by the loss of this beautiful fish... Guess what the guy says to me. It’s my fault that I acclimated the fish. Yup, he says that it stresses the fish out way to much, stating he NEVER acclimates the fish. When they come in from the Caribbean he just take them outta their bags right away and dumps them in his tanks. YIKS! :eek: :eek: HUH? But I told him the salinity is way off the average reef. He says nope that doesn't mater. He says, had I of not acclimated my fish & just dumped it in as soon as I got home the fish would still be alive today. :eek: :eek:
Lee, sorry to hear about your loss. :frown:

If that is the type of advise you got from this "basement LFS" I would rather spend my money elsewhere. I guess now I know why I have heard comments from multiple sources advising me not to purchase fish there. I would definately be banging on his door wanting my money back!! :evil:

I have always done the same acclimation procedure as you have with a few slight differences. I never bother to turn the lights off. (Although I usually float them in the sump where there is no direct lighting over head.) I also don't drip tank water into the bag. I add a half cup to a cup of water every 20 minutes or so. Then when I feel it is properly acclimatized I carefully place the fish in the tank.

[bulletsworld]

No the guy told me he runs copper in his tanks after I asked him it he treats any chemicals in his tanks...then he told me. I even tested later his copper concentration from the fish bag to see if it was high, knowing I could not let bag water get in my reef. But copper was very small amount 0.25 if that.

Yup, I did go back to him and the Nope, the guy refused a exchange for a new fish & not even a discount for the other PBT he had in another tank all because I acclimated the fish & claiming he can't be held responsible. Just crushed & didn't even get to see the beauty PBT in my tank. That's a royal FLUSH of money & left with a broken heart. Guess its my lesson not to trust a basement saltwater business? or Was it something I could have done wrong? :frown:

Still left wondering though what happened to the fish? Stress? Or was the test right after the fish died right, high in ammonia.

Any idea's?

Lee

[rodsboys]

Sounds like you did everything right Lee. That basement store is hit and miss.I have had some bad luck with purchaces from that place. No matter what is will always be your fault in that place. I took it as a "I should have know better" lesson.

[Willow]

sounds like you should expose the shits on the vendor fourm so the rest edmonton dosnt do business with this guy.

[AndyL]

Well... There is some theory behind the "Grab and plop" method for acclimatizing.

It's a commonly accepted practice at least in the discus world to "Acclimatize" fish that have been in shipping for longish periods of time. The theory being, once the bag is opened there are some radical changes in the water chemistry due to the sudden influx of oxygen. It is felt that the stress of the "Grab and plop" into a good environment, is better than to be left stewing in ones filth in radically changing conditions.

Now that said, they're talking Discus in bags for 12-36 hours... Not exactly Fish coming home from the pet store.

Personally I'm a lazy SOB and I've gotten accustomed to the grab n plop - but I still drip acclimatize any fish I feel are sensitive or are worth enough that I feel the urge to take care of :)

There ya have it grab n plop in a nutshell... I'll just shaddup about Saltwater fantasies; as some people apparently really like him.

Andy

[StirCrazy]

I float the bags for tewmp, then I drain the fish into a plastic strainer and run to the tank and plop them in.. never lost a fish this way.

Steve

[Bob I]

I more or less use Steve's method. I usually just equalise the temperature. Then I pour the water through a fishnet to get rid of it. Then into the tank the fish goes. I usually don't worry about salinity, as tha smallish difference won't hurt the fish. I have never experienced a problem. :eek:

[EmilyB]

IME, you can't keep the oxygen up enough in a bag that has been opened, especially with a large fish.

I usually float the closed bag for a few mintues to temp, then dump the bag and fish in a bucket. Add a couple scoops of water over ten minutes or so, net the fish and put it in.

No problems for me with the fish I purchase.

[Skimmerking]

[quote="bulletsworld"]Wondering how long do you acclimate your new fish for? :question: Not inverts, JUST FISH.... As inverts it depends on invert.


What procedure do you do?

I used to put them in a small rubbermaid container about 2 gallons and then drip gravity style to the fish in the container and every 20 mins adding about 30 ml of tank to the container depending on the drip ann the amount of water in the bag. now i have been doing the basement sump trcik with the bad in the water and adding 2-3 ml of water every 10 mins depending on the salinity in the bag and tank . then once the water is equal i put the fish in the container or a bag and up stairs to the tank with the lights off and add some more water to the bag . and wait 30 sec and slowly add the bag to the tank and open it up for the fish to swim out of the bag. It always worked for me.




I would tell the folks of Edmonton the name of the guy so there wont be any mix ups on their purchase. the guy sounds like a real winner. :evil:




mike

[Willow]

does anyone do freshwater dips?

[kuatto]

Sorry to hear you had to go through something like that :sad:
Sounds like there was something wrong with the fish and not anything you did.The "basement guy" is known by most here in Edmonton and while he does have very cheap prices,you pretty much take your chances when buying from him.If he is using this board and is reading this,he should make things right,if not,you should post in the Vendors Ratings and give his name and location.

[Tarolisol]

sounds like you should expose the shits on the vendor fourm so the rest edmonton dosnt do business with this guy.

I agree if hes treating people like that not to mention fish you should expose him, hes also breaking the law so its his own fault, Or you could blackmail him :mrgreen:

[trilinearmipmap]

I acclimate by adding 1/4 cup to 1/2 cup of water at a time, over 30 to 60 minutes. But if there were a large salinity difference I would acclimate for longer.

There is something about ammonia chemistry that makes it more toxic at higher pH's, it is possible this had something to do with the death of this fish if the pH went up in the bag during the acclimation. Anyway this is just a thought.

It is also possible the tang died from CO2 toxicity, this would go along with a low pH ie. higher CO2 in the bag with the fish would lower the pH of the water.

[StirCrazy]

also something I forgot to mention is to never never allow any of the fish store's water into your tank. there fish tanks are commonly coppered and such.

Steve

[Bob I]

sounds like you should expose the shits on the vendor fourm so the rest edmonton dosnt do business with this guy.

I agree if hes treating people like that not to mention fish you should expose him, hes also breaking the law so its his own fault, Or you could blackmail him :mrgreen:

No, no, no blackmail is very much against the law. :eek:

[Beverly]

hes also breaking the law so its his own fault,

I know this guy. As far as I know, he is not breaking any laws by having a home business. I'm sure he has the right papers to sell fish, just like any lfs, only he does so from his home and has done so for many years. Have in the past bought fish from him and have had the same luck with his fish as with fish from other lfs - some fish die and some fish live.

Sorry to hear about your terrible misfortune, Lee :cry: I have bought some fish from other lfs only to have these fish die within a week. I know your heartbreak :cry:

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

Depending on the temp. difference, I usually float the bag for 10-20 minutes & pour in about 1/2 cup at a time. 2-3 times & then I drain the bag & scoop the fish into my isolation chamber. (Don't usually use a quarantine tank - I know, me bad :frown: :redface: )

I've also had fish that jumped right out of the bag & into the tank without any problems.

Main thing for me is to stay away from notoriously difficult fish (ie. ick magnets) like Powder Browns & Powder Blues.

Sorry to hear about your loss.

Anthony

PS. if the temp., salinity &/or pH was that far off then the basement guy's holding system was the problem since I would have done the same as you.

[Willow]

some places keep the salinty purposly low to keep the bacteria in check. its kinda cheap but thats the cost of doing business with shady dealers.

[Ken]

Hi, sorry for your loss.You did the correct way of acclimation as well as others hobbyist's suggestions here. Everyone here stated a different way of acclimation and it works for them. I never heard of anyone dumping livestock in without proper acclimation especially with such wide parameters. Only in the worse case scenaro, you need to get the livestock in clean water. The powder brown tang got stressed out by lower pH, co2 increased by the PBT and caused low pH while travelling home in the bag. I'm sure there was no ammonia present in his tank, except it was developing during the trip home. The high nitrate indicates his poor water management. By putting the airstone in the bag, you were trying to rid of the co2 and increase o2, good for you! But too late and too sad. 2 questions: I'm sure when you were picking out the PBT in the tank. Did it look healthy? Second: How long a trip did it took to take him home? I have had PBT in the past and they are my one of my favorites. One in a client's tank for more than 8 years to this day alive and well. When we first got him, he was near death with ick, but recovered. Regards Ken

[Aquattro]

I also do as you did. I float the bag, open, for roughly 30 minutes while changing 1/4 cup of water at a time. This is the same for fish I just bought 15 minutes earlier, or fish I've had shipped for over 12 hours. Never lost a fish doing this, and I wouldn't ever just drop a fish in the tank unless the danger ws greater keeping it in the bag (really low pH, stuff like that). I know some stores do that as the fish have been bagged for 24 hours or more, and the faster you get them in clean water, the better. This DOES NOT apply to fish you just bought at the local fish store.

Please feel free to express your opinion in the vendor ratings forum, that's what it's there for.

[Dabbler]

I to float the bag for about 20 minutes then add a "yogurt" container to the bag, then about 20 min later I take one container of water out of the bag and then add another one. I do the about 4 to 5 times ( and depending on the size of bag and fish) so by the time I am done I should have 95- 100% of my water in the bag, then I net the fish and put it in the tank. None of the bag water enters my tank.

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

There you have it Lee. You did nothing wrong & you did your best to save that fish. So don't feel too bad or guilty about losing it. It happens. But I concur with those who suggest you post a thread in the vendors opinion forum so other's will have a chance to share their experiences, both good & bad. It will help everyone interested become more informed consumers. At least some good would come out of this bad experience.

JMO

Anthony

[bulletsworld]

Hey Everyone...thanks so much for all your posts…

I really appreciated all your thoughts on what might have happened. Also great to confirm that I’m not doing old school & that it is the right thing & way to acclimate new fish. Not causing them to die if I do so... craziest thing I ever heard...I tell ya. I have NEVER encountered this before. So sad.

Also thank you everyone for making me feel better about it all. I was really bummed about it and heart broken. Thinkin just my luck. Wow, feeling like this is a support group. BIG HUGS EVERYONE!

Someone asked how long the ride home was? Maybe 20mins… Someone else also asked “did the fish looked healthy?” The fish was very shy and some have torn fins. So as always you never know what you’re getting. I kinda took my chance too since the guy told me when I asked him if the fish was eating, he told me that he wasn’t sure cause he doesn’t watch when he puts food in the tanks. I asked him what he feeds. He told me, everyone gets fed Only brine shrimp. Thinking to myself, no wonder the fish are looking skinny.

The guy still claims, I killed the fish myself by acclimate the fish as he still protests he doesn't & claims NOT to acclimate any fish no matter if the water chemistry is totally off. He said, if he gave me an exchange or discount for another fish (replacement) then he said he would have to give to everyone else one too. You mean there is others? :eek: :shocked!:

But I do feel bad about posting him in vendors... as it persuades people not to buy there, right? Thinking it’s not his fault really that the fish didn't make it? Or is it? What do you even say on the vendors thingy anyway that I didn’t already say here?


.

[trilinearmipmap]

Post it on the vendors forums.

It is a good way to keep the vendors honest, and to steer newbies in the right direction.

[Dabbler]

You said it all in your first post right here

Even though I barely dripped any of my tank water in the bag, I grabbed a sample of the bag water & my reef tank & tested for Ammonia, Nitrates & PH. My tank PH was 8.3, no ammonia & undetected nitrates. Also tested the bag water same time. The ammonia was high 1.6 & the PH was really low 7.7 not to mention the nitrates were through the roof! HUH? Can a fish create an ammonia spike immediately after it dies? :question:

Fish are shipped for 24-48 hour by air and truck. Your fish should make it home with out a trace of bad water....even if the fish is dead when you left the store. There is no way the readings of the bag water should have been this high. Put a post in the vender's Experiance fourm and if you don't want to put the name down of the place just say "The basement fish seller" and everyone in Edmonton knows who it is.

PS I think someone already mentioned his name anyways :confused:

[Delphinus]

You know what strikes me as off is that the source water was 1.016. I'm no marine biologist but I think that's awfully low and has to be hard on fish. In my opinion, the stress of the move killed him, but the only reason he died is because he was severely compromised to begin with. Obviously a move is stressful but it's not supposed to kill the fish. So don't beat yourself up too bad, I don't think you did anything wrong here, and I'm astounded at how uncaring the vendor's attitude he is taking. I know if I was local I don't think I'd be buying from him and I'd certainly wouldn't hesitate to voice my disgust. Feel free to post whatever you like in the Vendor experiences forum; that's what it's there for; just stick to the facts, don't try to draw unsupported conclusions or stuff like that.

[michika]

I feel for you, and you definalty should post that in vendor ratings. I myself have never been to the "basement LFS" but have considered it. I think alot of people would appreciate your experience as a warning.

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

So post in the Vendor's Ratings already :biggrin:

Honestly, you'll be doing others a favour. There may be newbies who haven't read this thread but do check out the Vendor's Ratings postings. Besides, the peer-pressure may force this basement guy :evil: to clean up his act, or at least his tanks if he wants to keep doing this. If not for us humans, think of the fishes' lives you may help to save :biggrin:

Yup, I was planning to drive to Edmonton this weekend to buy some fish from this guy (NOT!) but now I'll just stay on the coast & go to OA:biggrin:

Anthony (Burnaby supporter)

PS. if he doesn't watch his fish eat, he probably doesn't care enough to keep his systems clean so the bad water was from his end, not your fault.

[bulletsworld]

Honestly, you'll be doing others a favour. If not for us humans, think of the fishes' lives you may help to save :biggrin:

O.k you guys do have a very good point here... Warn my fellow reefers!And FISHES LIVES I MAY SAVE? HERE I COME REEFERS & FISHES!!!!! :mrgreen:

O.k Vendor rating here I come..... *MARCH*

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

:biggrin:

I think I was a Fish lawyer in a previous life :lol:

Anthony

[bulletsworld]

Well thank you Anthony & everyone for your advice! *HUGS*

Marching to Vendor rating now.... *MARCH*

[Rikko]

I agree with what's been said here (and I'm jumping on very late, but the subject line made me stay away for a few days :D).. This really needs to be blown open in vendor ratings. Frankly, telling people not to acclimate fish is dangerous and irresponsible. I'm pretty sure he was just lying in your case to prevent giving you any relief from the cost, but that's still blatant stupidity.

There was really a much simpler way for him to go about it, and that's to do what I do:
"Absolutely no guarantees on any marine life once you've paid for it and left the store with it, even if I chase you down the street and step on the bag and run back into the store." <grin>

You see this kind of thing far too often.. Slimy businessmen whipping up any story they can to absolve themselves of any responsibility. You wouldn't believe the horror stories I've heard from customers over the years.

FWIW, it's your responsibility to make sure the animal appears in good health before you buy it. With water like that, he could very well have looked normal (we all know how late it is by the time a fish exhibits symptoms), but the shock of bagging and tagging just threw him for a loop.. Not a whole lot you could have done.
Then again, there's also a measure of trust when you go to a business and expect that their holding facilities are at least borderline adequate. The nitrates don't really interest me (I've seen thriving display tanks with nitrates in excess of 600ppm - fish that are used to it don't seem to care), but to have ammonia that high is absolutely unforgivable, as it that pH.

Sorry to hear you lost the fish. :( The sad reality of this hobby is that the guessing and testing on living creatures happens both on account of our own knowledge and experience, but also in our business dealings with shady dealers.

But hey, if you want to move to Vancouver you can have some free algae! :D

[Van down by the river]

Hello Bulletsworld,

First off my condolences, it's sad to lose any fish for any reason. It's especially frustrating when you have done everything correctly.

You are doing things correctly, there are a few points to improve, but you are already doing a better job than the majority of hobbyists.

Great acclimating suggestion posts from all you fellow Canreefers.

Just minor thoughts:
May I suggest that you use a container (eg: ice cream pail, Tupperware bin, old salt bucket,etc) instead of clipping the bag to the side of your tank. This reduces the temptation to release early.We all know how slow time can go when waiting to release our new tankmates.
It also helps you control the possibility of store water possibly contaminating your aquarium. Often the bag will often partially deflate/collapse and stress the fish as they feel "trapped" and try to swim to the reef they now recognise below. When placed in a non transparent container with dim room lighting they will often settle down very quickly. Some fish are far more photosensitive than others. Drip with some bulk airline. You can clip the top to your tank, and regulate it with either a plastic airline valve or a knot.

The setting of a dollar store oven timer is an excellent tool for reminding the time and not forgetting about the fish or overflowing the container.

I suggest in the future you test the water in both your system and the bag prior to starting to gauge the transition time required. At very least PH, Salinity, and temp. You have been doing 45-60 min which is fine. Some do longer but I don't feel it's necessary unless the water chemistry demands it or the fish has been in transit for more than a hour or two.

You mentioned it appeared "shy" there are many reasons for this, one of them may be that the fish had only arrived very recently. So allot of stress from recent shipping may be a factor.

It is most likely your Tang died of shock due to shipping stress, and poor water quality.
Much of the damage was done prior to you placing him in your aquarium. You never mentioned temperature. There may have also been a quick temperature drop during transit from the shop to your home as Edmonton is certainly not a tropical destination.

Yes, the dying fish is partly responsible for the high Ammonia and Nitrates readings. But I would be willing to bet that at least the Nitrate was high from the original tank water. The respiration of the fish would deplete the oxygen and drop the PH but again, I believe you would find that these conditions are probably similar to the original water.

It was bad water that only got worse.

Basement operations are simply that. Basement operations. If you needed surgery, would you trust a Doctor that worked out of their basement as much as one operating from a well run hospital? I highly doubt it.

This is a good guess at what happened:
A Powder Brown Tang was delivered to a basement operation. After 20-30 hours of transit it arrived with a PH of 6.9-7.2, high ammonia, and a temperature of 62-65 degrees. It was then lifted out of the dark box into a bright room it's bag cut and dropped into a brightly lit aquarium. Stressed, hungry, breathing heavy, in unfamiliar surroundings, and being picked on by other tankmates. It has shed it's slime coat and is very susceptible to disease. Now these new surroundings are better than the dark bag, but not by much. The water is old and hasn't been changed recently, the Ammonia is climbing because of the improperly maintained filters cannot handle the additional bioload. the PH is dropping because of the low level of salt and buffers. and the acids from decaying organic matter is suppressing the PH
So you have salinity 1.016, Levels of Ammonia and Nitrite, high levels of Nitrate, and a low PH of 7.7-7.9. Not off to a great start. So then the survivors that manage to make it through the night find themselves in this dismal position.

Why is the original water like that?
Salinity: The excuse will be that it helps prevent parasites (so does treating your fish properly!)
Hypersalinity levels are generally accepted for reducing Saltwater ich at 1.018-1.020
and this will depend slightly on the author.
Now I have seen studies with saltwater fish experimenting with a salinity as low as 1.012 . They found that the fish exhibited faded colors and other stress symptoms. This is not recommended for stores or hobbyists as it is far below natural seawater salinity. Lower salinity does occur in nature close to river mouths, etc. but that is not the discussion here.

I have often heard people use the low salinity excuse when they simply didn't want to spend money on salt when and IF they did water changes.

Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate: Who cares what they say. The reality is bad water quality caused by overstocking, overfeeding, inadequate filtration, poor maintenance, lack of water changes, need I go on? I don't think so.

PH: See above. Low salinity (low buffers/low alkalinity), bad water quality, and poor maintenance result in a system with low and fluctuating PH.

The result is dirty tanks with lots of algae and cyano bacteria(red algae).

Just wanted to address this:

The nitrates don't really interest me (I've seen thriving display tanks with nitrates in excess of 600ppm - fish that are used to it don't seem to care), but to have ammonia that high is absolutely unforgivable, as it that pH.-Rikko

First off, which test did you use to get that 600ppm reading?
600ppm in a reef tank? Sorry, this answer is just plain wrong.
That tank would crash faster than a blind man driving against traffic on the freeway!

" We recently had a reliable report for a major U.S. reef aquarium of 450 mg/l(450ppm) for NO3. Few if any, invertebrates are present in this aquarium. Many of the fish are sickly and the death rate is high.- Walter Adey, National Museum of Natural History"

Ahh, I love this next paragraph, I don't think I could even make stuff like this up!:

So I tell this guy I bought it off of. Just so devastated by the loss of this beautiful fish... Guess what the guy says to me. It’s my fault that I acclimated the fish. Yup, he says that it stresses the fish out way to much, stating he NEVER acclimates the fish. When they come in from the Caribbean he just take them outta their bags right away and dumps them in his tanks. YIKS! HUH? But I told him the salinity is way off the average reef. He says nope that doesn't mater. He says, had I of not acclimated my fish & just dumped it in as soon as I got home the fish would still be alive today.

Well he is right about one thing..... It is your fault.......That you chose to purchase a fish from his store and listen to his advice( I know you didn't follow it, and for that I thank you).

This must be a very rare Powder brown Tang as well, as all the PBM that I've ever seen, come from the South Pacific. I guess he has a special Caribbean strain.
I don't expect stores to know Latin names, but I do expect them to at least know which Ocean a fish comes from.

So I'm wondering.... Has anyone tried this?
Unfortunately, way too many. Does it work? Sure, it's the lazy man's way, and the worst way. It's not guaranteed to kill your fish. Just like smoking isn't guaranteed to kill you but odds are.........

Can't a fish go into Osmotic shock if the temps, water PH & salinity are WAY off? Definitely.


Every pet store i have ever been at or worked at has used acclimation procedures like that of JL AQUATICS.I would never risk dumping any fish right into any tank -Reef_kid
You are lucky Dave, unfortunately it is not done at EVERY store.
I also agree that PBM if stressed, or not acclimated properly are very susceptible to Ich.

You mentioned that he claimed to run copper in his tanks. The fact that it was 0.25 shows that he is neither testing it or dosing it correctly and the high organic load in his aquariums is neutralizing it. Again an example of poor husbandry.

Now, I do often agree that with saltwater fish it is "Caveat emptor" buyer beware. Ultimately livestock are an inconsistent and uncontrollable commodity. Even if a fish is perfectly caught, handled, shipped, acclimated, quarantined,fed, and displayed I have no control over what the hobbyist does after it leaves my hands.
Believe me, finding a hobbyist that admits to doing things wrong and killing a fish or being lazy with acclimating is like finding a guilty man in jail.Few and far between!

Every situation is unique. That being said, I have replaced or given discounts on replacement fish.

To all the people who say they never acclimate and never lose fish? I'd like some of your magic water! or is it that you are ________( rhymes with frying). :eek:
Go ahead argue all you want, I have acclimated thousands and thousands of fish, coral and inverts. I have sold fish to you or someone like you over and over again. It's always something else's fault it die or "disappeared" :rolleyes: . I'm sorry but the odds just aren't in your favour.

If acclimating properly is wrong than why does every reputable store, wholesaler, importer, and public aquarium swear by it? Why have I never EVER read a husbandry book telling me not to acclimate?
Is my point clear enough?

AndyL made a point that in certain extreme cases "grab and plop" is an option, I agree but again those are extreme cases.



I kinda took my chance too since the guy told me when I asked him if the fish was eating, he told me that he wasn’t sure cause he doesn’t watch when he puts food in the tanks. I asked him what he feeds. He told me, everyone gets fed Only brine shrimp. Thinking to myself, no wonder the fish are looking skinny.


I'll translate the shop owners comments:
"he wasn’t sure cause he doesn’t watch when he puts food in the tanks."
:arrow: "He doesn't care"

"everyone gets fed Only brine shrimp" :arrow: "He doesn't care"

Everytime somebody asks me about food I see it as an opportunity to help them understand the benefits of a varied diet and addressing specialized diets for different fish. I practice this at home and at work.

So I ask, why do people buy there? The answer is hidden in the following quote;

he does have very cheap prices,you pretty much take your chances when buying from him.If he is using this board and is reading this,he should make things right-Kuatto
Based on his business practises it is highly unlikely he knows or even cares about this or any other knowledge sharing website.

some places keep the salinity purposely low to keep the bacteria in check. its kinda cheap but thats the cost of doing business with shady dealers.- Willow
It has no effect on bacteria.

But I do feel bad about posting him in vendors... as it persuades people not to buy there, right? Thinking it’s not his fault really that the fish didn't make it? Or is it? What do you even say on the vendors thingy anyway that I didn’t already say here?-bulletsworld

The vendors forum is useless unless it reports both good and bad fairly. Yes it may persuade people to spend their money more wisely. Isn't that the point? The principle is to reward reputable stores and steer people away from poorly run stores. The stores then have the choice to improve or go out of business. Just stick to the facts when you post and let people make their own choice.

I'm not trying to be mean or single anyone out, but when people lie about their success's and failures we can't learn from it and move forward. I will be very disappointed if this post is censored.I think it's important to be truthful about how stores operate and treat their animals and customers.

I would also like to mention that I'd like to see more postings when somebody does provide good service and knowledgeable advice.

I would encourage you to look at more than price as a deciding factor in the future. I know personally that you have many other choices in Edmonton to make your purchases. Many of which provide far better service and quality. Yes some of them may be more expensive, but how much of a deal is a dead fish?

Oh my god I think that's the longest post I've ever written!

[Willow]

dang brother.. that was well said!

[Aquattro]

I will be very disappointed if this post is censored

There is nothing to censor in your post. Very well written, factual and honest. Good job. And where the heck have you been lately?? Oh, and ya, definitely the longest post so far :razz:

[danny zubot]

Just my 2 cents.

The LFS you got the fish from told you to drop the fish right in right? Well if this is the acclimation practice he promotes then he is responsible for the death of every fish he sells. A fish can't tolerate a 1.010 increase in salinity in such a short period of time. He should adjust his salinity if he wants people to drop the fish in like that. Also, you asked, Can a fish create an ammonia spike immediately after it dies? The answer is that a fish can create an NH4 spike while it is still alive. Fish secrest amonia as waste and while under stress excrete a lot more than usual. In this reagard the drop and plop method is good. You were stuck between rock and a hard place, soory about your loss. I'd expose the LFS if I were you! :mad:

[Delphinus]

Nice to see you back James.

[Beverly]

I've had my share of heartbreak fish deaths from most of the lfs in Edmonton over the years. From these deaths, I want to share a few tips I have developed for my personal use on picking fish from a lfs:

- be knowledgeable about the fish you might like in your tank you hope will be at your lfs. If you see a fish you like but don't know anything about it (after following the instructions listed below), ask the lfs person if they can look up the species characteristics, such as food preferences, adult size, reef safe or not, aggressive/gets along with others, etc.

- when you find a fish you like, spend at least 5 full minutes observing its behaviour in the tank. Watch for things like a crowded tank, shyness, strange swimming behaviour, torn or shredded fins, wounds, ich, velvet, lumps where there shouldn't be lumps, if the fish is abnormally skinny. If any of these are present, pass on the fish. It is in poor health.

- if the fish passes the above inspection, observe the other fish in the tank and in the other tanks beside, above or below it for signs of parasites. If there are parasites in one of these tanks, parasites (perhaps dormant) are likely going to be in the tank your fish is in, as banks of tanks share the same water and filtration systems. Again, pass on this fish.

- if the the fish passes the two above inspections, ask a store person to feed the fish to make sure it is eating. Don't take the word of ANYONE at a lfs that the fish is eating, see it for yourself. If it does not eat, pass on this fish.

I have gone into my favourite lfs (and other lfs) several times over the years and not been happy with the fish I have seen and opted to come back another day. Buying fish should not an impulse purchase, even though we might think we'll never see another fish like that for a few months (which would probably be true).

Wait for fish that are in good health, NO MATTER WHAT!!! Doing so will reduce, but not eliminate, the chances you are bringing home a sick fish.

Whew! If I have overstated something, or left anything out, please feel free to point out my errors.

[Richer]

Bev's got some good advice IMO. When I want to buy a fish/coral/whatever, I tend to spend a gross amount of time researching the living daylights out of it... heck, it took me 2 years of reading forums and researching before I finally decided to dive into a salt tank. When I bought an algae blenny a few weeks ago, I spent a good 45 minutes watching it and the tank that it was living in.... it drove my gf nuts :mrgreen: :lol: .

Who is this guy with the basement operation? I suspect I've been to his place before, but I ran out in disgust. It'd be nice if we all got his name and address so that we'll know to avoid this place in the future.

-Rich

[muck]

When I bought an algae blenny a few weeks ago, I spent a good 45 minutes watching it and the tank that it was living in.... it drove my gf nuts :mrgreen: :lol: .
I do the same thing and it drives my wife nuts too. :mrgreen:


Who is this guy with the basement operation? I suspect I've been to his place before, but I ran out in disgust. It'd be nice if we all got his name and address so that we'll know to avoid this place in the future.
It has been posted by AndyL in the first page of this thread.
We are still waiting for Lee to officially post it in the Vendors Ratings area though...

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

Richer wrote:
When I bought an algae blenny a few weeks ago, I spent a good 45 minutes watching it and the tank that it was living in.... it drove my gf nuts .

I do the same thing and it drives my wife nuts too.

Ditto. Why do you think my wife usually passes when I go LFS hopping now :lol:

I agree that being an informed buyer (which means combining research & personal observation) is the way to go. If you're not sure, put the fish in ? on hold until you can look it up, either in books or on-line. Any reputable fish-store should be willing to hold it for you if it's not for too long (usually a day or less). It may be more hassle originally, but it'll save you $ & stress later (not to mention keeping unsuitable spp. out of your sys.)

Anthony

[Beverly]

Oops, forgot one of the most important things:

- do not buy a fish from a lfs when there are dead fish in their tanks.

[bulletsworld]

It'd be nice if we all got his name and address so that we'll know to avoid this place in the future.We are still waiting for Lee to officially post it in the Vendors Ratings area though...

WOW! OMG! You guys are too quick at the draw!! No worries I will have it posted in the vendor forum a little bit later, I'm just drafting it up as we speak as I pretend to my boss that work is WAY more important then the hobby :mrgreen: Yeah right! :lol: :lol:


Lee


P.S- Also wanted to thank, Van down by the river, your article was awesome & very well written and for sure the longest....just buggin, but I must say you had great tips that I will use in the future. Thank you very much for your post. It was very much appreciated. *CLAPPING* *BOWING TO YOU* :mrgreen: Now where you when I was banging on the basement business door..... I could of called you and said, "Hey Van wanta come for a drive & hold the test results & the frozen bag of a popsicle fish? (crime scene) :lol: BUMMER...you live in Vancouver. :sad:

P.P.S- Thanks to everyone input as well. It can be very tricky picking healthy fish, even when you think they look healthy doesn't mean they are. I do always find myself feeling sorry for beaten up fish myself and get them just to think I can save them. I know...BAD LEE! Doesn't always work out though and does create more stress in life for sure. All the tips above have been great guys. Thanks a bunch everyone. *HUGS*
:mrgreen:

[StirCrazy]

Van,

I occasionally acclimate fish, but that consists of floating the bag and adding 1 scoop of tank water to the bag waiting 5 min. most of the time I don't with fish.. just equalize temp and pour it into a safe strainer and put them in the tank. For snails I take them out of the water for 5 to 10 min then plop them in to the tank and I can say I have a lot better success rates with the snails this way. as well as I hear a lot of places are starting to ship snails moist also.

for corals, they get a fresh water dip then right into the tank, only ever lost two and they were severally stressed be for I got them and we didn't expect them to make it.

Having said that the fish I have bought come from a local store where I know the tank water conditions are very similar to mine so I feel the temp drop during acclimatization would cause more harm in my case.

I do agree that as a store that is selling the critters should be doing all they can to ease the stress on a fish that has been boxed for 24 to 72 hours to ensure they are selling a top notch product. I don't think it is as server when we are talking about a 15 min car ride to water that is almost the same as the stores if not better. you aren't going to kill a fish by removing ammonia fast are you if all other parameters (Ca, Alk, PH, and Temp) are similar?

Steve

[clownchick22]

Sorry to hear about your poor fish. :cry:

If it were me, I would definately post him in the vendor's forum and explain what happened. Why? Because no matter what, any business should honor thier fish, or any product for that matter. He should have atleast given you a credit for another one. Also, if any vendor acted like this, then I would want to know before purchasing from him. It's pre-informing other potential-customers what they could be getting into.

[bulletsworld]

O.k everyone... I finally posted in "Vendor Rating" forum....

Let me know if its a bad post..please. Looking for your thoughts as always.

Thanks a bunch everyone for all your kind regards and helpful tips! Hope this does'nt happen to any of you.


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*WAVES*