My battle with dinoflagellates

[Llorgon]

Hey everyone, recently I finally won my battle with dinoflagellates! and I thought I would do a post about what I learned so hopefully it will help some fellow reefers who are going through the same issues.

In october 2018 I developed dinos in my 75 gallon reef tank. Nitrate and phosphate had been at 0 for awhile and triggered the bloom.

How to fight them:

GAC - carbon is your friend. Some strains of dinos are very toxic to snails and crabs. The carbon will help remove the toxin and keep everything alive. You may have to replace it every couple of days at the start.



ID the dinos - Get a microscope and look at them under it. Or take a sample to J&l and use theirs. Take pictures and get a positive ID on it. This will be incredibly important since different dino species can be fought in different ways. Some are killed by UV others aren't.


UV - Some species are susceptible to UV. If you have one of those species in your tank a UV sterilizer can take care of the issue in a few days.

The dirty method - This involves raising nitrates and phosphates to .1ppm phosphate and 10ppm nitrate. This is to promote algae growth to out compete the dinos. Some people have also had luck with dosing silicates.



Increasing biodiversity - Since a lot of the time dinos bloom in newer tanks with less biodiversity, increasing it can be beneficial, but make sure the tank can support it.



How I beat dinos:

I took a sample of the dinos to J&L and got some photos of them under the microscope. This helped me ID them as prorocentrum and amphidinium. It's not uncommon to halve multiple strains in the tank at once.

I bought a green machine in tank UV sterilizer and set it up in the tank. That killed all the dinos on the rock in about 3 days.

I started to dose nitrates and phosphates to bring them up from 0. You will have to dose alot at first. Like a crazy amount. If you are using the seachem nitrogen and phosphorus to dose buy 2 bottles at the start. You will need them. For the first week I was doing 4 caps of each 3 times a day. After that first week the need for it reduced drastically. Your aim is to get nitrate and phosphate to where they don't keep dropping. For me, this took months.


While I was dosing N&P I was also stirring the top layer of sand and blowing off the rocks every night. I would attach a 5um filter sock in the sump to catch everything and turn up the power heads to full and try and get as much of the dinos out at night as I could. For this you will need a 10um filter sock or smaller. Anything bigger and the dinos can get through.


Water changes. Do them! I started doing water changes with tap water and got a explosion of algae. It was great since that means less dinos. While doing water changes make sure to remove as many of the dinos as possible.

Dosing silicates. This seems to be most effective with amphidinium species of dinos. I saw the biggest improvement in my tank when I started dosing silicates. Like N&P you will have to dose a lot at the beginning. I was dosing 30 drops of sponge excel a day for my 75 gallon tank. Word of warning, the salifert silicates tests don't work. They always read 0.


Increasing biodiversity in the tank. Since the dinos are toxic, most likely your pods and other critters are going to take a big hit. In my case there were no visible things other than fish living in the tank for months. Adding pods, live rock from other tanks can help speed up the process. But make sure your tank is ready for it and the toxins are under control enough to support them. For me, this worked best near the end of the battle. Once there was some algae in the tank and I was down to replacing the GAC once a week I added some pods and some pieces of liverock from a fellow reefers tank.


Mistakes I made:

Not knowing what I was dealing with. At first I thought it was some gross algae so I added some snails and hermits. They all died... pretty much within minutes...

Doing a blackout. Corals were already stressed. The 3 day blackout cost me all my sps, didn't do much for the dinos and took a couple days for the other corals to turn around.

Adding biodiversity too soon. I tried adding pods and stuff like it 3 times. All three times they just seemed to disappear and never seen again. I think there was still too much toxins in the water and not enough algae in the tank to support them.

Not doing water changes. I stopped doing water changes to keep the tank with higher N&P, but I was getting no algae growth. Started doing water changes and algae started growing again. Also while doing water changes you can suck out the dinos which speeds up the process.


before and after pics coming soon!

[Frogger]

Good to hear. Great write up.

Bet you never thought you were going to be such an expert in such a short time.

[Llorgon]

Good to hear. Great write up.



Bet you never thought you were going to be such an expert in such a short time.Thanks. I definitely did not think I would learn so much already. The dinos haven't been fun, but I've learned a lot about tank balance.

Here are some pics of the tank today and when I had dinos. I no longer have dinos, but I have a ton of gha.

I can now start trying to get rid of the gha and focus some attention on a couple unhappy corals.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190411/29397ca5a9ebacf6c3ac1165f36875de.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190411/1353c8cdf27adfe1d7e65d2f0a1b78fa.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190411/f349afa133ecbc12700b29c38ede5233.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190411/d0fc71a8051cf80b34419215445706d8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190411/9a3f047b3da8f309a98a34bf35008d8f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190411/2b155ff04efc1a097e7d85068dc7e8d3.jpg

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[Frogger]

Good luck, it always a process, manual removal outside the tank might be the best option.

[ReefMadness]

it's amazing what can happen in 3 days with just a UV sterilizer when you're fighting amphidinium dinos.
I ended up having to deal with prorocentrum dinos for over a year until I could safely say I won. they were definitely a different beast as they never leave the substrate so UV isn't effective. I found success with algae and introducing some more established live rock.

[Dash]

Hi Llorgon,
Congrats on winning the battle. What a process!
Not sure if you need any free chaeto (with pods, brittle stars, etc) - just let me know.

[Llorgon]

Good luck, it always a process, manual removal outside the tank might be the best option.


I have been trying to manually remove some each night by hand. I haven't made much of a dent yet. Some spots are hard since it's attached to the rocks really well and doesn't want to be pulled off.


it's amazing what can happen in 3 days with just a UV sterilizer when you're fighting amphidinium dinos.
I ended up having to deal with prorocentrum dinos for over a year until I could safely say I won. they were definitely a different beast as they never leave the substrate so UV isn't effective. I found success with algae and introducing some more established live rock.


It is pretty amazing how well UV can work. I think it's the opposite though. Amphidinium are in the sand and don't go into the water column. That's what I had in my sand and the UV had no effect on them.


Hi Llorgon,
Congrats on winning the battle. What a process!
Not sure if you need any free chaeto (with pods, brittle stars, etc) - just let me know.


Thanks! I may take you up on that soon. Although the last stuff you gave me didn't last very long. Maybe second time will work better!

[hillegom]

Some people have success with Hydrogen Peroxide treatments for GHA

https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/390407-fully-write-up-hydrogen-peroxide-treatment-gha-documentation-and-photos/

[Dash]

Thanks! I may take you up on that soon. Although the last stuff you gave me didn't last very long. Maybe second time will work better!

I have a great big ball I have to harvest soon.

[Razor Ramon]

Great to hear you hung in there and won !
Big Mexican turbos eat the green !

[Llorgon]

Some people have success with Hydrogen Peroxide treatments for GHA

https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/390407-fully-write-up-hydrogen-peroxide-treatment-gha-documentation-and-photos/


Hmm. I will have to check that out. Might be worth a try. I do have some hydrogen peroxide laying around.



I have a great big ball I have to harvest soon.


Ok. You twisted my arm. When you are ready to harvest let me know and I will stop by.


Great to hear you hung in there and won !
Big Mexican turbos eat the green !


I thought the mexican turbos didn't last long in reef tanks since they came from cooler waters? Or am I thinking of a different snail type?

[Dash]

I’ve had the same 3 turbos since starting the hobby haha

[Reyphox]

When I had GHA like that I just scrubbed hard and changed the filter sock 30 minutes later to prevent it decomposing back into the tank. Added a Turbo as well. My tank read very low nitrates and no phosphates so I didn't bother increasing my water changes because clearly at that time it was all in the algae. But if your readings are high then you'll have to perform some water changes or throw in some media to help bring those numbers down.

Great to hear you hung in there and won !
Big Mexican turbos eat the green !

I would recommend the Zebra Turbo Snail (Philippines) instead. They come from warmer water and do just as good of a job.

[Frogger]

Not sure I would want to dose H2O2 directly to my tank. I have tried it before to control algae and it did not work unless you use it in an Oxydator.

You do not have a lot of rocks in your tank. I would just take them out and scrub them. Add some CUC to keep it in check. You might have to do it a few times.

If you really must use peroxide I would spot treat out of the tank. Only problem is peroxide does a great job on the hair algae but it also toasts coraline algae and amphipods/copepods as well.

Be careful how quickly you bring you nutrient levels back down or you could cause a cyano outbreak or worse back to the dinoflagellates. You haven't eliminated them only created a more balanced system that out competes them.

Chemical cures can also create an unbalanced system which leads to further problems.

[Razor Ramon]

The Mexican turbos that Aquarium illusion in my area get in are very large as turbos go they live along time but there like bulls in a china store.
Another very good snail are the strawberry snails but over time they get big and again if corals are not encrusted or on plugs they can move them. The strawberry will grow bigger than the Mexican turbos . Both are excellent grazers.

[Llorgon]

I’ve had the same 3 turbos since starting the hobby haha
That's impressive. Snails seem to be one of those things I really struggle to keep alive. My survival rate seems to be 1 in 5. I have no clue why.


When I had GHA like that I just scrubbed hard and changed the filter sock 30 minutes later to prevent it decomposing back into the tank. Added a Turbo as well. My tank read very low nitrates and no phosphates so I didn't bother increasing my water changes because clearly at that time it was all in the algae. But if your readings are high then you'll have to perform some water changes or throw in some media to help bring those numbers down.

I would recommend the Zebra Turbo Snail (Philippines) instead. They come from warmer water and do just as good of a job.


What do you use to scrub the rocks, just a toothbrush? My nitrate and phosphates are high. So no mystery as to why I have so muh algae. I'm working on slowly lowering them. Where can you get the zebra turbos?


Not sure I would want to dose H2O2 directly to my tank. I have tried it before to control algae and it did not work unless you use it in an Oxydator.

You do not have a lot of rocks in your tank. I would just take them out and scrub them. Add some CUC to keep it in check. You might have to do it a few times.

If you really must use peroxide I would spot treat out of the tank. Only problem is peroxide does a great job on the hair algae but it also toasts coraline algae and amphipods/copepods as well.

Be careful how quickly you bring you nutrient levels back down or you could cause a cyano outbreak or worse back to the dinoflagellates. You haven't eliminated them only created a more balanced system that out competes them.

Chemical cures can also create an unbalanced system which leads to further problems.


I agree on the H2O2. After reading more into it it seems like it usually will kill more than just the algae. Which I am not sure my tank can handle that at the moment

For scrubbing the rocks I just scrub them in some saltwater and then put them back in?

I'm worried about lowering the nutrient levels. You are correct the dinos aren't gone just out competed. I can still see some on the ends of the gha. I'm trying to lower them slowly with small water changes each week. Also trying not to use as chemicals either.

I really want to find a good balance between appropriate nutrient levels to keep dinos away and enough CUC to keep algae to a visible minimum. My main problem is finding the right combination of CUC and keeping them alive.


The Mexican turbos that Aquarium illusion in my area get in are very large as turbos go they live along time but there like bulls in a china store.
Another very good snail are the strawberry snails but over time they get big and again if corals are not encrusted or on plugs they can move them. The strawberry will grow bigger than the Mexican turbos . Both are excellent grazers.


Interesting. I will look into the strawberry snails. I haven't heard of them before.

What about emerald crabs for gha. I have heard they are good for eating it, but can get aggressive to fish or start eating some corals. Anyone had any experience with them?

[Reyphox]

What do you use to scrub the rocks, just a toothbrush? My nitrate and phosphates are high. So no mystery as to why I have so muh algae. I'm working on slowly lowering them. Where can you get the zebra turbos?



Yes, just a toothbrush. You can pick off whatever you can by hand and then scrub the rest. J & L sells them as Philippine Turbos.

[Frogger]

What do you use to scrub the rocks, just a toothbrush?
I agree on the H2O2. After reading more into it it seems like it usually will kill more than just the algae. Which I am not sure my tank can handle that at the moment

For scrubbing the rocks I just scrub them in some saltwater and then put them back in?



I use this to scrub the rocks https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/small-maintenance-brush-set-oxo-good-grips.html I bought it off amazon.ca.

Just take the rock carefully out of the tank trying not to dump the detritus into the tank. Scrub them until you remove all traces of hair algae. You can spot treat with straightup 3% peroxide for tough to reach areas. Not the difficult to do just takes time. It is important after doing it to turkey baste your rocks regularly and not let any detritus settle on them.

You also need to look at maintaining your sandbed before it becomes part of the problem. See this thread,
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-official-sand-rinse-thread-aka-one-against-many.230281/

This thread has a lot of useful information in it.
it is amazing how much detritus builds up in your sand. I actually ended up siphoning most of it out and only left some in one end of the tank for the wrasse. Mostly because I had a really bad cyano outbreak that took me over a year to get under control.

You are lucky you do not have a lot of rocks in your tank.

[Razor Ramon]

I always liked emerald crabs in a small tank like yours I’d only put one .
Reefers say never trust a crab .
They are opportunist so if they run out of algae the might try something else .
All the years of having emerald crabs I have never got a gouge one .
Now hermits yea bad killed my snails just because they wanted to try a new shell then went back to there old shell . Go figure

[Llorgon]

I use this to scrub the rocks https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/small-maintenance-brush-set-oxo-good-grips.html I bought it off amazon.ca.

Just take the rock carefully out of the tank trying not to dump the detritus into the tank. Scrub them until you remove all traces of hair algae. You can spot treat with straightup 3% peroxide for tough to reach areas. Not the difficult to do just takes time. It is important after doing it to turkey baste your rocks regularly and not let any detritus settle on them.

You also need to look at maintaining your sandbed before it becomes part of the problem. See this thread,
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-official-sand-rinse-thread-aka-one-against-many.230281/

This thread has a lot of useful information in it.
it is amazing how much detritus builds up in your sand. I actually ended up siphoning most of it out and only left some in one end of the tank for the wrasse. Mostly because I had a really bad cyano outbreak that took me over a year to get under control.

You are lucky you do not have a lot of rocks in your tank.Ok I will have to try the rock scrubbing.

The sand cleaning is interesting. I definitely thought the stuff living in the sand was more fragile than it seems. I am quite bad at cleaning the sand as well.

Also made me think of the sump... I don't think I have cleaned that at all. Next water change I will have to suck it out. Will probably be a big help.I always liked emerald crabs in a small tank like yours I’d only put one .
Reefers say never trust a crab .
They are opportunist so if they run out of algae the might try something else .
All the years of having emerald crabs I have never got a gouge one .
Now hermits yea bad killed my snails just because they wanted to try a new shell then went back to there old shell . Go figureI might have to try a emerald crab. If it can help in the gha fight why not.

Anyone tried a urchin? I heard they were great algae eaters, but with my track record of snails I'm not sure how well it would do.

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[Dash]

I love my tuxedo urchin. Spike is a nice small fellow & doesn’t cause too much trouble (I tried a beautiful white urchin that grew enormous in a couple of months & he disrupted things so much that I took him back to JL). Sometimes I move him onto a rock that needs cleaning and he’ll do it haha. He’s also been with me since the beginning so around 3 years old now at least. I don’t have big long clumps of HA though, just small patches here & there. He scrapes rock clean, leaving a white trail

[Frogger]

I have a tuxedo urchin you could have for a reasonable amount. Not much algae left in my tank and he loves putting things on his back, snails, small corals ect. Kind of want to get rid of him.

[Llorgon]

I love my tuxedo urchin. Spike is a nice small fellow & doesn’t cause too much trouble (I tried a beautiful white urchin that grew enormous in a couple of months & he disrupted things so much that I took him back to JL). Sometimes I move him onto a rock that needs cleaning and he’ll do it haha. He’s also been with me since the beginning so around 3 years old now at least. I don’t have big long clumps of HA though, just small patches here & there. He scrapes rock clean, leaving a white trail


I'm impressed with your ability to keep things alive for so long. I would hope it would eat the hair algae. I have a yellow tang that ignores it so I don't want more things that won't touch it.


I have a tuxedo urchin you could have for a reasonable amount. Not much algae left in my tank and he loves putting things on his back, snails, small corals ect. Kind of want to get rid of him.


I will probably take you up on that. I need to get my nitrates down a bit first. They are at 15-20ppm and from a quick google about them it seems they can be sensitive to nitrates.

[Razor Ramon]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190425/88dc74433fe90cbb523120eda748e54d.jpgstrawberry snails your tank is smallish you might only need one of these beasts just put it on the rock you want cleaned ,after mine mine cleaned my tank it lived in my sump for a couple years. But there like a bull in a china store lol
Great value for $7.50

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[MitchM]

I've been involved with freshwater ponding for a while and some people there are also having problems with dinoflagellates.
The common theme between fw and sw seems to be aquatic environments where people are trying to micromanage water quality, which usually ends up in an unhealthy and unsustainable aquatic environment.

Our reef keeping hobby is subject to micromanaging by it's nature, so that makes it pretty susceptible to dinoflagellates.. :smile:

In freshwater ponds, some people are using a copper ionizer which kills off populations of algae. Dinoflagellates increase in population as a result because the main nutrient nitrogen remains.

Local oxidation will temporarily kill off dinos because they are organic, but the long term solution seems to be increasing the diversity of various algae.

[Frogger]

I've been involved with freshwater ponding for a while and some people there are also having problems with dinoflagellates.
The common theme between fw and sw seems to be aquatic environments where people are trying to micromanage water quality, which usually ends up in an unhealthy and unsustainable aquatic environment.

Our reef keeping hobby is subject to micromanaging by it's nature, so that makes it pretty susceptible to dinoflagellates.. :smile:

In freshwater ponds, some people are using a copper ionizer which kills off populations of algae. Dinoflagellates increase in population as a result because the main nutrient nitrogen remains.

Local oxidation will temporarily kill off dinos because they are organic, but the long term solution seems to be increasing the diversity of various algae.

Mitch you make a lot of sense. The coral reefs in the oceans and the old growth forests have thrived for hundreds and thousands of years because of immense unmatched biodiversity. One teaspoon of soil in an old growth forest has 50 billion microbes in it. I would guess that the biodiversity in an "old growth" coral reef would match that.

There is so much that we don't fully understand in this hobby. Once we think we get one thing figured out it just leads to a dozen other ones that we don't know or can't control.

[Llorgon]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190425/88dc74433fe90cbb523120eda748e54d.jpgstrawberry snails your tank is smallish you might only need one of these beasts just put it on the rock you want cleaned ,after mine mine cleaned my tank it lived in my sump for a couple years. But there like a bull in a china store lol
Great value for $7.50

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Damn. Those are huge snails. I would definitely only need one. I am hesitant about adding snails though. I don't have much luck with them.

I've been involved with freshwater ponding for a while and some people there are also having problems with dinoflagellates.
The common theme between fw and sw seems to be aquatic environments where people are trying to micromanage water quality, which usually ends up in an unhealthy and unsustainable aquatic environment.

Our reef keeping hobby is subject to micromanaging by it's nature, so that makes it pretty susceptible to dinoflagellates.. :smile:

In freshwater ponds, some people are using a copper ionizer which kills off populations of algae. Dinoflagellates increase in population as a result because the main nutrient nitrogen remains.

Local oxidation will temporarily kill off dinos because they are organic, but the long term solution seems to be increasing the diversity of various algae.

I don't feel like I was micromanaging the water quality( I probably was). It is a new tank with only 3 small fish and N&P hit 0 for awhile.

I agree that having more algae helps. I only seem to have hair algae on the rocks and hair algae and some really tough green algae on the glass. It doesn't even scrape off easily. But the algae theory makes sense since making the water "dirty" and increasing algae growth seem to be the most effective way in battling dinos. I got some chaeto from Dash last night. So we will see if that helps things at all.

Right now the sand and glass is dino free and anywhere that gha isn't growing on the rocks is dino free, but there is still some dinos on the gha itself. It's quite annoying.

[Llorgon]

update:

Added some new corals over the last week. Everything seems to be doing pretty well so far. It's nice to finally be able to add corals again!


I also picked up some cheato from Dash and it seems to be doing well so far. I have the refugium light come on opposite the display tank lights.

Still working on getting the gha under control. I added a few more snails including 1 turbo snail and an urchin I got from Frogger. The urchin has finally started to climb on the rocks. Hopefully it will take a liking to the gha.


I have been attaching a toothbrush to my python hose and scrubbing the rocks in the tank while doing water changes which has made a big improvement on the level of gha.

My nitrates seem to have dropped and read 0. Should I bring them up to 5ppm? I assume the 0 reading isn't truly 0 since I have so much algae.

[DKoKoMan]

I wouldn’t bring up anything at this time until you notice the algae in the display to be minimal. With what you have been describing, it is appropriate to assume your nutrient levels are still high.