gfo alternatives

[lastlight]

Thinking of dosing one of the commercially available lanthanum chloride products into a 10 micron sock. Anyone here do this and have a product they recommend? Or better yet a source for lanthanum chloride in concentrated form I can dilute? Products like seaklear for pools they recommend over on RC just can't be found here it seems. My goal is to make phosphate mgmt more wallet friendly. Thx!

[hillbillyreefer]

Here ya go



And the msds

https://media.nat.cm/filer_public/90/26/90269c50-c9e9-4406-be11-c96b954f983e/phosfree_-_english_sds_-_2017.pdf

[Razor Ramon]

I was at 19 islands in Edmonton a while back and they had it on there shelf.
Do your research some animals are very sensitive to the precipate. (Tangs ,clams ,filter feeders)
I like the idea but the process to remove the precipate screening and skimming had to be done right and the product needs to be added very slowly in the right amounts.
I haven’t tryed it gfo seems safer.

[lastlight]

I think this is like the 5th time I've considered then abandoned the idea. Sorry to clog the forum lol. I read up again and recalled why I've decided against it before. It'll be gfo since it's safe. I always get excited then read lol.

[DKoKoMan]

I think this is like the 5th time I've considered then abandoned the idea. Sorry to clog the forum lol. I read up again and recalled why I've decided against it before. It'll be gfo since it's safe. I always get excited then read lol.

I have used both GFO and FozDown products. The only difficulty I had was maintaining the phosphate at a low level and knowing how often to dose the product. It does make some clumps in the sand but if you skim - and water change it goes away. I have GFO running in my reactor atm but I am considering going away from gFo as well.

I know BRS did a video ok WWC and they control their phosphates with lanthium chloride as a primary means. For me it’s just figuring out how much and how often to dose to mirror the effects of the GFO which is always in place. I absolutely hate the $$$ associated to GFO and lanthium chloride definitely is cheaper for management.

[gregzz4]

Brett, I stopped using GFO back in the spring of - I think - 2016, and haven't looked back.
No GFO, no carbon. I dosed some liquid NO3 and PO4 for a month or so to balance stuff, then stopped using reactors for both.

Using GFO is like adding iron to your system - algae fuel.

I currently, and for the last 3 years, use nothing to combat nutrients.
I keep liquid NO3 and PO4 on hand just in case, but have used neither since Spring 2016.
My tank is a bit low on nutrients as I don't have enough fish, but my corals are doing OK.

Current params are;
Alk 8.3
Ca 420
Mag 1350
K 400
NO3 0 could be higher
PO4 0.013 could be higher

I really need more fish to feed my corals :smile:

[DKoKoMan]

Brett, I stopped using GFO back in the spring of - I think - 2016, and haven't looked back.
No GFO, no carbon. I dosed some liquid NO3 and PO4 for a month or so to balance stuff, then stopped dosing both.

Using GFO is like adding iron to your system - algae fuel.

I wonder if this is contributing to the brown dust algae on my sand and glass...interesting.

[gregzz4]

I wonder if this is contributing to the brown dust algae on my sand and glass...interesting.
I still get algae on my sand and glass. But I no longer have issues with my rocks, nor do I have hair algae

[Frogger]

There is always a more natural way of controlling nutrients using an ATS or chaeto in the sump.

Tim Tessier (on Canreef) sells Fozdown which is lanthanum chloride. He is a strong advocate of its use.

I have used each and every method I have mentioned above. I do not like adding chemicals or using GFO and I couldn't grow chaeto to save my life. My ATS works like a charm. I had to reduce the hours I run it to reduce the amount of nutrients it is removing from my tank.

[Razor Ramon]

Sounds like you have a very pure water source and a very good salt mix !👍👍

[FishyFishy!]

Brett, if you want to try Fozdown, I have a brand new bottle that I never used because my filter sock holes didn't fit the 10 micron socks that I bought. I use Fauna Marine Ultra Phos 0.04 now, so you can have my Fozdown if you want to try it out.

Wai's usually carries Fozdown.

[lastlight]

How are you running the ultra phosphate 0.04? There are so many products now! How does its price compare to gfo? I certainly need to use something I'm at a whopping 0.24 at the moment but I barely have any coral yet.

[Frogger]

How are you running the ultra phosphate 0.04? I certainly need to use something I'm at a whopping 0.24 at the moment but I barely have any coral yet.
What are your nitrates at? Sometimes if your nitrates are low you will get a high reading on phosphates.

My phosphates were way up there when I first started my tank 3 years ago. I couldn't even control the phosphates with GFO and Fozdown. But my nitrates were undetectable even with the Red Sea Pro nitrate test kit. I started adding nitrates and my phosphates dropped right down and my corals coloured up.

Apparently nitrates were the limiting factor and once my tank had nitrates the inhabitants in the tank were able to use the phosphates and the phosphates dropped quickly to near 0.

If you have moderate to high nitrates dis-regard everything I said.

[lastlight]

I'm pretty sure all my dry rock is leaching generously. My test shows nitrates around 40ppm...

[TimT]

Since my name was mentioned I thought I'd chime in a bit.

A little bit of history...

I had an Acro/SPS/LPS culture system of 800 gallons. I put a lot of food into the system broadcast feeding the SPS and target feeding the LPS. I had lots of fish in the system as well as several tangs... Purple Sailfin, White Stripe Bristletooth, etc etc. I used HC GFO in a custom DIY reactor to control Phosphate but it was expensive... over $100 a month. I needed a cheaper method so I researched Lanthanum Chloride.

Foz Down was created because I thought, wow this stuff is great, it's safe, cheaper and much less work than GFO. It would make life much easier and cheaper for hobbyist's too! I should dilute it to a safe level and sell it as an effective means of controlling phosphate/algae/cyano. I diluted it because I had purchased a highly concentrated version for my Acro/SPS/LPS culture system. I didn't want to expose hobbyist's to the risk of overdosing it and consequently depleting the buffer in the tank. I did however make it the strongest version on the market and only added RO/DI water to it.

The LC is like other chemicals and comes in different grades... 99.00% pure, 99.90% pure, 99.99% pure and 99.999% pure. I chose to use the 99.99% pure version as it's not quite as expensive as gold but still reasonably pure. China is the main source of LC.

LC will selectively bind with Phosphates first, but since it's a chloride salt it will also bind with buffers, only if no Phosphate is present. Interestingly they use Lanthanum carbonate to remove Phosphate from people with end stage Kidney disease.

The best way to use Foz Down is to dilute it with RO/DI water and slowly add it through out the day via dosing pump to the main Display Tank. The dosage can be calculated by figuring out your tanks daily Phosphate production. I've tried the 10 micron filter socks and then went to the 5 micron filter socks. I did some tests and the precipitate will go through 10 micron and some will go through even the 5 micron socks. Eventually I just discarded using the socks and added it to the main tank. I ran bare bottom tanks so could see any build up but there was nothing other than the normal detritus. To sum up my experience with Foz Down... I just added it diluted directly to display tank via GHL dosing pump and did not worry about filter socks.

If anyone has any questions please feel free to message me.

Cheers,
Tim

[lastlight]

Thanks Tim. I do think I'm going to give it a shot after all. I don't have a doser just yet but I'll manually dose for the time being.

[Craigdillman]

I have a 125g mixed sps ( more sps then las) reef with 150ish gal water volume
I have used FOZ DOWN for the last 4 going on 5 years.
I bought 6 bottles when i came out and i still have 3 left, once my levels got down to where i wanted them i did the math and for my tank and feeding i dose 3ml into 2L of water and dose 100 ml a day over 3 times. My Phosphate levels are ALWAYS 0.03 or 0.04 every time i check them no mater what.

I used to go threw over a cup of GFO a month now 3ml of Foz down lasts almost a month

I use this in conjunction with vinegar dosing but now its at such a low level i only dose 10 ml of vinegar a day almost nothing

I HIGHly reccomend just trying it i have had super good results and I'm like you i hate adding stuff to my tank if i dont need it.Also i dont use a filter sock as i haven't noticed any difference as i dose in the sump before my normal socks

My only concern is what will happen if i can't get Foz down as the company goes out of business i will need to stock up but i have only used like 2 bottles in the past 2 years

Just my 2 cents

[TimT]

Glad to be able to help Brett!
You can also add the Foz Down into the water reservoir for an ATO system. Wai's should have some in stock.

Thanks for the positive feedback Craig. Don't worry about me going out of business :-). I've been doing this since 1999, actually 20yrs this March. You could say I'm addicted to the hobby and I love diving on the reefs.

[DKoKoMan]

Glad to be able to help Brett!
You can also add the Foz Down into the water reservoir for an ATO system. Wai's should have some in stock.

Thanks for the positive feedback Craig. Don't worry about me going out of business :-). I've been doing this since 1999, actually 20yrs this March. You could say I'm addicted to the hobby and I love diving on the reefs.

just wondering about the foz down in the ATO reservoir, how much would you add?

[TimT]

To figure that out you need to find out how much water your tank uses on a daily rate and it's daily Phosphate production. Then add the appropriate amount of Foz Down to the ATO reservoir.

For example: Assuming 300 gallon tank heavily stocked with fish with about 240 gallons of water volume.
Tank evaporates 1 gallon of water a day. Reservoir holds 5 gallons.

Morning Phosphate reading of 0.08mg/l

Phosphate reading 24hrs later of 0.12mg/l

Tank volume of 240 gallons of water = 240 * 3.78 = 907.2 Liters

Daily Phosphate production = 0.12mg/l - 0.08mg/l = 0.04mg/L * 907.2 L = 36.29mg of Phosphate produced per day.

1 drop of Foz Down removes 0.04mg/l from 37.8 Litres = 1.512mg of Phosphate.

36.29mg of Phosphate needs 24 drops of Foz Down to neutralize it.

Your tank would need 24 drops of Foz Down per day to neutralize it's Phosphate production.

The ATO reservoir holds 5 days of water so you would add 5 * 24 drops of Foz Down to it.

1 ml is roughly 20 drops so you would add 6 ml of Foz Down.

An 8oz bottle of Foz Down is 240ml. So there is 40 dosages in the bottle. 1 dosage = 5 days so 1 bottle of Foz Down would keep Phosphates down in your tank for almost 7 months. That works out to about 15 cents a day for a heavily stocked 300 gallon system.

Hope that helps.

[DKoKoMan]

To figure that out you need to find out how much water your tank uses on a daily rate and it's daily Phosphate production. Then add the appropriate amount of Foz Down to the ATO reservoir.

For example: Assuming 300 gallon tank heavily stocked with fish with about 240 gallons of water volume.
Tank evaporates 1 gallon of water a day. Reservoir holds 5 gallons.

Morning Phosphate reading of 0.08mg/l

Phosphate reading 24hrs later of 0.12mg/l

Tank volume of 240 gallons of water = 240 * 3.78 = 907.2 Liters

Daily Phosphate production = 0.12mg/l - 0.08mg/l = 0.04mg/L * 907.2 L = 36.29mg of Phosphate produced per day.

1 drop of Foz Down removes 0.04mg/l from 37.8 Litres = 1.512mg of Phosphate.

36.29mg of Phosphate needs 24 drops of Foz Down to neutralize it.

Your tank would need 24 drops of Foz Down per day to neutralize it's Phosphate production.

The ATO reservoir holds 5 days of water so you would add 5 * 24 drops of Foz Down to it.

1 ml is roughly 20 drops so you would add 6 ml of Foz Down.

An 8oz bottle of Foz Down is 240ml. So there is 40 dosages in the bottle. 1 dosage = 5 days so 1 bottle of Foz Down would keep Phosphates down in your tank for almost 7 months. That works out to about 15 cents a day for a heavily stocked 300 gallon system.

Hope that helps.

Thanks Tim! That was super informative and broken down well for dosing within the ATO. Much appreciated!

[TimT]

My pleasure and glad it was helpful!