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Frank Infanti
12-21-2017, 12:12 AM
I'm pulling my hair out. Bought frags & they are starting to die off/turning brown & I don't know why. ALK 8.5 CAL 430 MAG 1300 PH 8.0 phos .2

I'm using LED which I slowly ramped up to 80% but it's not bleaching them the coral are turning brown. Any thoughts?


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whatcaneyedo
12-21-2017, 12:23 AM
Detectable phosphate is too much phosphate and will certainly effect the colour and health of your coral.

Here is a little light reading:
Phosphate and the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes Farley
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php

Bugger
12-21-2017, 12:28 AM
Are you changing your Ro filters. How old is the membrane how old and what type of carbon blocks are you using. What kind of water does your city use. you might have added chlorine to the system.
What are you checking your salinity with
something clearly happened

WarDog
12-21-2017, 12:58 AM
So many variables.

What kind of frags?

Frogger
12-21-2017, 04:22 AM
Could be a million reasons. Need way more information. Like how long has the tank been setup. how long you have had the corals, what are the corals, , what is the temperature, what are the nitrates (0 nitrates can cause loss of colour), what else is in the tank ( corals) what are their colours like etc.

Often it is just the stress of cutting a frag and moving to a completely new tank will cause a coral to go brown. The good news is fix the problem and the colour will come back. If the problem is just stress sometimes it takes 6 months to a year for a coral to recover. Higher end corals are more temperamental which is why they are higher priced.

DorySaid
12-21-2017, 05:02 AM
You mentioned phosphate but not nitrates. Its sounds to me an excess nutrient thing possibly? But like they said it could be many things. You mentioned ramping leds but where did you get the corals and how was their water and light in comparison to yours?

Ram3500
12-21-2017, 05:41 AM
I would guess that it's the LEDs.Or it's your phosphate or it's your frags miss the ocean. My vote is they miss the Ocean.

Frank Infanti
12-22-2017, 07:24 AM
Ok so I'm running a RODI unit and my TDS is 0, my refractometer has been checked & accurate. A fellow member & new friend reached out to me a suggested that I use a turkey baster to blast the corals to see if the film would blow off. To my surprise most of it did. It blew off as a dust cloud not as a sheet of algae.

So yesterday my phos was 2.0 after adding 250ml of gfo it went down to .13/.14 & watching closely to make sure it doesn't drop to rapid. I'm not going to feed for a couple of days & reduce my HYDRAS to 50% @ 20k.

Any other suggestions. I just did a 30% water change a couple of days ago.



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DorySaid
12-22-2017, 07:56 AM
I'm assuming your phosphate is .2 not 2.0
If it were 2.0 then thats your answer to the browning. That would confirm my estimate that your nutrients were too high. But lets assume they were .2 which is not horrible by any stretch.
I dont know what size your tank is so i cant say if 250ml of gfo is too much but you gotta kinda watch that. Extreme quick changes can cause even more trouble.
As far as your leds, i dont think you'd need to turn them down. If you had too much light to what they were used to, they would likely bleach. Try to inspect the corals for any signs of bugs or pests just as a general precaution, but browning is usually nutrients related, not too much light.
By the way, what test kits are you using and are they fresh? ( Not expired )

whatcaneyedo
12-22-2017, 01:57 PM
How much flow do you have?

A picture is worth a thousand words. Or in this case a hundred forum questions/posts.

Frank Infanti
12-22-2017, 03:01 PM
I tried to upload a pic but it's not working. Will try again. It's a 160g tank with 2 MP40 on opposite ends from eachother. One is at about 6" below the surface running at mostly 100% nutrient mode & the other is about 3-4" below the surface running mostly at 75% nutrient mode. Late night until early morning they are reduced another 20% & switched to constant mode.

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gregzz4
12-22-2017, 03:48 PM
Yes, Frank's PO4 is 0.2 not 2.0
And his NO3 is @ 25

Yesterday I asked him to use a turkey baster on his corals and he told me a bunch of dusty crap blew off. Now I don't know if it was all over his corals, or just in spots where the tissue is gone, but either way he has high nutrients.

He reduced his lighting at my suggestion as I feel with the extra nutrients running his light @ 100% is most likely contributing to the crap on his corals. Plus, once basted they are exposed to all that high light and might bleach.

Frank, I think you've turned your light down a tad too much. We don't want to shock your corals. Try running your light around 75-80% to start with

Frank Infanti
12-22-2017, 09:05 PM
Thank you

Putting the lights up to 80%

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adam84
12-23-2017, 02:47 PM
I have been watching the effects of nutrient levels in my system for a while now and have found that colors seem to be best when no3 is maintained between 5-10 ppm, I know many would argue this is on the high side but it is working very well for me. The other variable that seems to have a large effect is not only light intensity but the photo period, how long are your lights running at 100% per day?

Frank Infanti
12-23-2017, 03:49 PM
I have been watching the effects of nutrient levels in my system for a while now and have found that colors seem to be best when no3 is maintained between 5-10 ppm, I know many would argue this is on the high side but it is working very well for me. The other variable that seems to have a large effect is not only light intensity but the photo period, how long are your lights running at 100% per day?I have attached my hydra schedule
I also have two attinic led 4' strips which run 2hours longer than my hydra.


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adam84
12-23-2017, 04:02 PM
Is that close to 12 hours full lighting?

Frank Infanti
12-23-2017, 04:47 PM
Wrong pic

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Frogger
12-23-2017, 07:11 PM
I am sorry but trying to guess what is wrong with your tank without knowing the history of the tank, the corals, which corals are affected , which corals are not affected, how long you have had the corals, how long the tank has been set up, how long the browning has been happening, were the corals healthy at one time, have you made any changes to the tank or your husbrandry is not possible.

It is kind of like you saying you have a tummy ache and need a diagnosis. And a us saying, its a tumor, it indigestion, its your gall bladder, its the food you ate last night, its the full moon. One of us might be right but I wouldn't make drastic changes to my lifestyle without knowing what is truly going on.

All we really know about your tank is some/all of your corals are browning (only a symptom) and your tank parameters are within an acceptable range and you have adequate flow and adequate lighting.

There is a big difference between corals browning and dying. Browning is often caused by an excess growth of zooxanthellae algae. Bleaching/ dying is often caused by the coral expelling the zooxanthellae algae.

Also it is rarely just one thing it is likely a combination of things that are showing up in your corals as browning.

Frank Infanti
12-24-2017, 03:51 AM
I completely understand.

I admit I'm kinda shoot from the hip when it comes to this hobby. I'm deffinetly going to pay attention to levels much closer this time around.

Ok so what happened? About a year ago everything was fine in my 160gal reef tank with a med/high bio load with LSP & SPS corals. Sorry can't name them since I'm not that technical. Had it running brand new introducing frags & everything was growing. I was running GFO, algae scrubber which was doing great. Since I was thinking of getting more fish I thought let's put a BIO pellet reactor online which I believe was the down fall of everything.

So hear I am. I had a huge crash and lost all the coral except for two heads of my hammer. So about a min of 6months have passed with just water changes & now I have started to get back in.

I have started to introduce new frags. I bought from a fellow reefer a frogspawn which seems to be doing great & SPS from another member which are shitting the bed.

Everything I'm experiencing is in the above thread & I'm truly nervous to continue investing in this hobby.

I'm going to try and modify my sump this week so I can add a refugium with hopes that it could keep my nitrates & phos in check.





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DorySaid
12-24-2017, 09:25 AM
I completely understand.

I admit I'm kinda shoot from the hip when it comes to this hobby. I'm deffinetly going to pay attention to levels much closer this time around.

Ok so what happened? About a year ago everything was fine in my 160gal reef tank with a med/high bio load with LSP & SPS corals. Sorry can't name them since I'm not that technical. Had it running brand new introducing frags & everything was growing. I was running GFO, algae scrubber which was doing great. Since I was thinking of getting more fish I thought let's put a BIO pellet reactor online which I believe was the down fall of everything.

So hear I am. I had a huge crash and lost all the coral except for two heads of my hammer. So about a min of 6months have passed with just water changes & now I have started to get back in.

I have started to introduce new frags. I bought from a fellow reefer a frogspawn which seems to be doing great & SPS from another member which are shitting the bed.

Everything I'm experiencing is in the above thread & I'm truly nervous to continue investing in this hobby.

I'm going to try and modify my sump this week so I can add a refugium with hopes that it could keep my nitrates & phos in check.





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It's ok to own a biopellet reactor and this and that but you have to make slow subtle changes with any new piece of equipment that could or will change water chemistry. I would only add a piece of gear if I know I have a problem I need to correct. But again, you have to use a slow approach.
Furthermore if you have a good setup in the past there was likely no need to add a reactor or much anything else. If it ain't broke don't fix it attitude.
We wouldn't wanna see you get discouraged and throw in the towel just yet. My recommendation is to double check parameters and start with a couple inexpensive frags. Monitor there color growth over the next little while then slowly start adding again.

DKoKoMan
12-24-2017, 11:41 AM
I test my water every Sunday for salinity, alkalinity, phosphate and nitrates. I am currently carbon dosing and slowly make adjustments based on the numbers. I have had some good growth, coloration and limited algae.

I do have two separate frags (Acro and Monti) which are currently brown. I had these in my reef from the start and when I had excessive nutrients. They have not died and have not computed up. Just the other day I noticed the acro finally getting a green base and the color appears to be coming back. That being said I have great coloration in all other sps.

adam84
12-24-2017, 04:14 PM
Other than lowering your nitrates my suggestion would be to keep your lighting high but lower the length of time at 100% try to replicate natural sunlight starting the day with only the blue spectrum for an hour or two then the whites and then full spectrum for only a few hours and ramp back down. I have been using led for a few years now and what works well for me is I start my blue channel in the morning for 2 hours then the whites come on, 1.5 hours later I have 3 T5s that come on for 4 hours (2 true actinic 1 coral plus for a more full spectrum light) 1.5 hours later the whites are back off and it's 2 more hours of just blues.

DKoKoMan
12-24-2017, 08:50 PM
Forgot to add... you could get your water tested by another reefer or LFS to compare against your water tests. That way you will ensure accuracy.

Frank Infanti
01-01-2018, 01:53 AM
Ok so here's an update.

Pretty much lost all of the sps frags. Even a easy to keep green birdsnest. The only thing that looks good is the Octospawn.

I dismantled my skimmer & return pump to check for wear & metal poisoning from the impeller magnet & found nothing. Everything checks out great. Even checked the pump I have for my salt mixing station.
I didnt want to take my mp40's apart but they look good with no swelling or signs of wear. My HYDRAS are now running at 100% @ 14k

My rodi is showing 0 TDS
Alk 8.5
Cal 430
Nitrite still high at 25
Mag 1300
Phos .12
Sal 1.025

I had made room in my sump and now have added a refugium running cheato which I hope will help with the phos & nitrite.

I dont see any pests in the tank attacking the SPS and the frags that I did add came from a reputable member but I had dipped anyway.

I'm lost & don't know what to do anymore.
I heard that even that my phos & nitrites are high it should cause the sps to die off. It's not bleaching it's the actual flesh coming off or my coraline algae is growing on it.



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adam84
01-01-2018, 05:36 AM
What is your ph running at? Try to check it before lights out and then again before they come back on in the am, see if it is swinging over nite. Have you checked for stray voltage?

Frank Infanti
01-01-2018, 05:58 AM
What is your ph running at? Try to check it before lights out and then again before they come back on in the am, see if it is swinging over nite. Have you checked for stray voltage?Ph day 8.08
Night 7.9ish



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WarDog
01-01-2018, 05:59 AM
Have you pulled any affected frags out and dipped? I am wondering about AEFW. Where have you been getting your SPS frags?

Frank Infanti
01-01-2018, 06:00 AM
Have you pulled any affected frags out and dipped? I am wondering about AEFW. Where have you been getting your SPS frags?A couple of local can reef members. No I didn't pull anything out since I was hoping they would come back

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DorySaid
01-01-2018, 08:09 AM
Well Frank it looks like you have a nice setup so you probably covered everything equipment wise. As I said, why don't you just get some flatworm eXit and use that in case like Wardog said its AEFWs. But more importantly, just get your nitrate and phosphate down a bit more before you add more coral. There are no doubt successful colorful tanks that run high phos and nitrate but I believe it probably has to do with corals or other inhabitants in a more crowded system being able to keep up with consuming them. If you just have a few frags, they may be getting overwhelmed with the excess nutrients. It seems like every other parameter looks very reasonable. Only thing if anything, is just those are a little out of wack. I find chaeto only slightly impacts the nutrients but i still love having it. Use some Red Sea No Pox and a little bit of GFO. Start slow. That Red Sea takes about a week or so to start working but when it does, it really does. Makes more of an impact on nitrates more so than phosphates.

Ryanerickson
01-01-2018, 04:15 PM
Well Frank it looks like you have a nice setup so you probably covered everything equipment wise. As I said, why don't you just get some flatworm eXit and use that in case like Wardog said its AEFWs.

flatworn exit does nothing for aefw

Frank Infanti
01-01-2018, 04:49 PM
flatworn exit does nothing for aefwWhat would you recommend if it is? I tried dipping last night and I couldn't really identify them.



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Galizio
01-01-2018, 04:59 PM
Hey Frank, I really hope are not aefw, they can be very nasty and will take some time to remove ...


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Ryanerickson
01-01-2018, 05:19 PM
What would you recommend if it is? I tried dipping last night and I couldn't really identify them.



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if it is aefw all sps will need to be removed and dipped every 5 days or so about 8 times. can you not get us a closeup pic of a frag or 2 ? you can also look for clutches of eggs on bottom of plugs or right on the edge of the sps skin. eggs will be brown.
if you do find them it may be easier to just throw the sps out as there pretty though to loose.

Frank Infanti
01-01-2018, 07:07 PM
I through some of the sps which were looking really bad out such as the birdsnest. Cannot see any brown eggs at all. Will try to take a pic & will take a closer look tonight.

It looks like the coral are dying off similar to my last crash a year ago. How long is a life cycle of flat worms when no other sps are left. Can they attack LPS & zoas?



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Frogger
01-02-2018, 03:15 AM
It is not Aefw if your birdnest is equally affected. Aefw are host specific.

That does not mean you do not have Aefw it only means that Aefw did not cause the decline in your birdnest. Many well seasoned veteran reefers have Aefw and don't even know it.

When you have decline in different species of corals it is likely water quality or water stability issues.

A nitrate of 25ppm will not cause a decline in your corals as noted on its own, nor will your lighting. There are lots of reefers who are successful with higher nitrates then 25ppm.

Your parameters on their own appear to be fine, however they are only a snapshot of your tank at that given moment in time. More important then the individual parameters are the stability of those parameters. You can be equally successful with a alkalinity if 7.5dkh as with an alkalinity of 11dkh. You will never be successful if your alkalinity is swinging from 7.5 to 11dkh.

Changing your lighting, changing your husbandry techniques or changing your filtration to try to find a cure will only lead to more instability in your system. Try to find a method that you want to use and stick to it.

Given that you have been unsuccessful before in keeping Sps you are demonstrating that you may not be able to provide these corals with the stability they require in order to not only survive but to thrive.

You appear to be successful with LPS. Lps have more of a tolerance to changes then most Sps. Maybe the best option is to continue with LPS and start with easier sps like pocillopora. Once you have mastered these, good colour, good growth then move on to some of the easier monti's and acro's.

The longer you take (many months or even years) and the more patience you demonstrate the more successful you will be. Rome wasn't built in a day.

DKoKoMan
01-02-2018, 04:02 PM
Was reading through the thread and maybe I missed this point. Did your sps slowly peel from the base up or did the flesh rip almost immediately to skeleton. I found when I had higher nutrients (nitrates and phosphates) some more sought after sps would STN. Most of pieces were fine and would just brown out, the rapid change as frogger mentioned is the worst thing.

Is there much swing in your alk during your wc? Also how often are you currently doing your WC? Your sump setup is clean and it seems like your successful with your lps corals so it appears it has to be something the sps won’t tolerate.

Hopefully you can post a couple photos and we can offer more suggestions for you.