eurithromyacin

[Jaws]

Can this be used to treat cyano?

[Aquattro]

yes, but it's kinda pointless. Fix the cyano cause, not cover it with meds

[Jaws]

I fixed the skimmer so it's not throwing out bubbles anymore but what's the best method to counteract the cyano now that its forming on the bottom. Eventhough there are no bubbles coming out of the skimmer anymore either, there are still tons of bubbles constantly forming on the rocks and on some of the corals.

parameters:

Calcium 430
Alkalinity 9.2
Nitrate (according to those inaccurate Hagen kits) around 10 mg/L
Ammonia 0
pH 8.3

Any suggestions?

[StirCrazy]

what's the best method to counteract the cyano now that its forming on the bottom.
parameters:

Any suggestions?

How long have you had this tank running? sounds like it is a new cycle to me.

an increas in flow usaly takes care of it from forming but that isn't realy the fix for it.. you have an abundence of nutrents so you have to reduce that. heavy skimming and time are the main fixes.

Steve

[Jaws]

I purchased the tank from someone else who had it for over a year actually so it's been cycled. There's quite a bit of flow in it for a 90G but it's only running a prizm pro skimmer. I'm having to baste the rocks every hour in order to keep the bubbles off the rock and there's nothing even creating them anymore.

[Aquattro]

The bubbles never came from the skimmer, they're a byproduct of photosynthesis. Cyano and dinos both produce bubbles, and both can happen after a major disturbance of the tank. Moving the tank qualifies as a major disturbance. Keep the skimmer going, lots of flow, maybe reduce the photoperiod, maintain a good water change schedule and be patient. It will go away.
Is it red, green or brown? Sheets or stringy snotty bubbles?

[Jaws]

The algae is like a dark red and the bubbles grow in neat little bunches only on the red algae and also on the rock where there doesn't appear to be any cyano. The tank has been set up for about two months now. Would it normally take this long for the algae to appear? I did get rid of all the live rock on the right side of the tank which is where the algae has formed since. I guess this could have assisted in the problem.

[MitchM]

Did you also purchase the sand that came with the tank?
Year old sand could be loaded with phosphates.

Mitch

[Aquattro]

Ya, there could be a lot of PO4 in there. Eric did have a lot of things die in that tank, like 3 anemones at once, things like that. If they just dissolved in the tank, the sand could be polluted. Get some phosban from Safari and put that in. Did you get your skimmer running yet? If not, work on that too.

[Chin_Lee]

Jason
test your phosphate. fix the phosphate problem if required by removing sand possibly and feeding less ..... for interm quick fix use phosban/rowaphos to stop the growth
get your skimmer going
use a small diameter 1/2"id acrylic tube attached to a hose as a siphon and siphon any muck on the sand to remove that top layer. it may be used to remove some of the muck on the rocks as well if it comes off easily. this can be used to remove sand as well ... a little slow but you might not need to dismantle your tank.
good luck.

[Jaws]

Thanks guys. I got the prizm pro working pretty good now... at least as good as a prizm pro can work. Things are looking a little better today too. I need to syphon the bottom again though. I only feed once a day and only half a cube of prime reef and the same amount of mysis. Can having too many fish in your tank be a contributor?

[MitchM]

I think you need something else in there to take up the extra pollutants that could be leaching out from the sand and/or rocks. Lighter feeding and heavier skimming won't do it, IMO.
I've never tried Phosban, but a lot of people recommend it. Have you any macroalgaes growing in the system?
I'm at the point of adding some macros to my tank pretty soon to hopefully acclomplish the same thing.
Sand beds and "dirty" live rock (as in LR that doesn't have sufficient water flow around it) are phosphate sponges in themselves.

Mitch

[Jaws]

No macro algaes. The only other filtration I have is a fluval 404 which doesn't do a whole lot.

[Aquattro]

The fluval will contribute to nitrates, get rid of it. You're feeding way too much, IMO, for a time when you're having cyano problems. I'd feed some dry pellets once a day, mysis maybe once a week, sparingly. If you have too many fish, then yes, that can contribute.
What type of water change schedule are you using?

[Jaws]

20% every Sunday.

[Aquattro]

20% every Sunday.

good amount. Try and baste the rocks off when you doa water change, just to remove floaties.

[Jaws]

I usually try to do that. I think the dumbest thing I did was drag a net over the bottom 4 or 5 days ago to pick up all the cyano because the syphon wouldn't pick it up. That probably just made the problem worse. Thanks for all your help guys.

[Beverly]

The fluval will contribute to nitrates, get rid of it.

IME, any mechanical filter will become a nitrate and phosphate producer if not cleaned frequently. It's best to thoroughly clean the filter media during EACH water change in the outgoing changewater.

Now, to get picky about mechanical filtation, if it weren't for the filter media in our tanks, TONS of crud would simply stay in the tank and produce MORE nitrate and phosphate.

IMO, the key to keeping any reef system from becoming overloaded with nuisance algae or cyano is to find the balance between food input and poop output, whether it's by:

- better skimming
- reducing the number fo fish in the tank
- feeding less but not starving the fish
- having macroalgae in the main tank that utilizes the nutrients
- keeping mechanical filtration clean
- using a refugium.

Sounds like jaws inherited a tank that the original owner was having problems with and decided to sell it rather than deal with the problems. In this situation, I would either remove the sandbed and clean it in changewater, or remove the sandbed completely. Plus, I would add macroalgae to utilize the nutrients and, if possible, add more LR.

jaws may test for phosphate, but if the cyano is already there, it is probably utilizing the phosphate and his tests may show 0 ppm.

[Jaws]

Thanks Bev. Good advice. I'll clean the fluval today when I do another water change. Any advice on how to clean the fluval? I'll be adding more rock in a few days too. I want to reduce the number of fish in the tank but I'd rather not do that until February when I move. It will be much easier then. Hopefully when I move though, I'll be transfering everything into my 180 and will be going bare bottom so I won't have this problem. This will probably shock everyone but I'm going to list all the fish I have in my 90G and hope someone can tell me how much to feed them:

Regal Angel
Blue Hippo Tang
Yellow Tang
Two Skunk Clown Fish
Six Line Wrasse
Cleaner Wrasse
Pink Spotted Watchman Goby
Spotted Mandarin
Lawnmower Blenny
Five Green Chromis

Before you judge me, keep in mind I did buy this tank off someone else. I'd also like to transfer all of them to the 180G if possible.

[Aquattro]

GASP!!!!! That many fish?? Wow! :razz: Jason, pretty much what I said on the first page. Some dry food once a day, making sure it all gets eaten. Mysis once a week as a treat. Best way to clean the fluval is FW with bleach. Then post it for sale to someone with a fish only tank. Cannisters don't belong on reefs. Live rock is there to perform nitrification, not cannisters. They are competing with each other, and your rock will suffer. To remove it, take out half the media this water change, and then take the whole filter out at your next water change. This will let your rock build bacterial populations to compensate for the loss of the cannister.
And while the fish load is on the high side, it is easily manageable. I wouldn't worry about keeping them all until you get the 180 going.

[StirCrazy]

This will probably shock everyone but I'm going to list all the fish I have in my 90G and hope someone can tell me how much to feed them:

Regal Angel
Blue Hippo Tang
Yellow Tang
Two Skunk Clown Fish
Six Line Wrasse
Cleaner Wrasse
Pink Spotted Watchman Goby
Spotted Mandarin
Lawnmower Blenny
Five Green Chromis

Before you judge me, keep in mind I did buy this tank off someone else. I'd also like to transfer all of them to the 180G if possible.

WOW 2 tangs and an angel in a 90. the sooner you transfer them the better.

going to have to watch that angel around your corals.

Steve

[MitchM]

In this situation, I would either remove the sandbed and clean it in changewater, or remove the sandbed completely.

Beverly, do think that there is any point in trying to clean old sand? If it is indeed loaded up with PO4, just rinsing it won't solve the problem. A person would have to keep it in R/O water constantly stirring in order to have all the PO4 leach out.
IMO, old sand shouldn't be re-used - it can't clean itself as well as live rock can.
What do you think?

Mitch

[Aquattro]

Mitch, I agree with you. Old sand has PO4 leached into it's surface pores and only acid will remove it. The problem with sugar sand is an acid bath pretty much dissolves it entirely!
If sand is desired, buying a new bag is well worth the $30/bag for peace of mind.

[StirCrazy]

IMO, old sand shouldn't be re-used - it can't clean itself as well as live rock can.
What do you think?

Mitch

Old sand is a relitive term, if the sand was old enuf that it was giving you problems then no it shouldent be reused as a DSB, but a good rince will be fine for a thin layer of sand. If you had no problems from your sand then rince and use away.

even new sand will contrubte to a PO4 cycle so that isn't much of a issue.

Steve

[Jaws]

The sand is just over a year old and I don't think is in need of changing IMO. The only problem with feeding only dried pellets is the angel will only eat mysis. He hasn't even taken a second look at any of the corals either.

[Aquattro]

even new sand will contrubte to a PO4 cycle so that isn't much of a issue.

Steve

How so?

[StirCrazy]

. Old sand has PO4 leached into it's surface pores and only acid will remove it. .

SO if only Acid will remove it then it woulden't be a problem in the tank as we don't keep are tanks acidic. PO4 is natural bound to the Calcium carbonate and can be liberated by bacteria and other means. I will try dig up that article on the PO4 cycle it is good reading.

Steve

[MitchM]

. Old sand has PO4 leached into it's surface pores and only acid will remove it. .

SO if only Acid will remove it then it woulden't be a problem in the tank as we don't keep are tanks acidic. PO4 is natural bound to the Calcium carbonate and can be liberated by bacteria and other means. I will try dig up that article on the PO4 cycle it is good reading.

Steve

What about the lower PH level in the anoxic area of a sandbed?
EmilyB had higher calcium levels in her tank than the new salt water with the water changes and I think that it was coming from the sandbed partially dissolving.
With the low water movement levels in a sandbed, the lower areas of the sandbed are basically sitting in a "soup" of concentrated detritus, so it can't help but equalize with it's surrounding water and become further saturated with PO4...right?
Live rock won't have that problem as long as there's sufficient water flow.

Mitch

[Aquattro]

Old sand will release PO4 with fluctuations in pH. And yes, we do keep our tanks acidic. At night my tank could be pH 8.4, but in the morning it could be pH 7.9. This is much more acidic than th enight before, and therefore caused some PO4 to leach into the tank. It may very well be re-adsorbed later in the day as the pH rises, but likely it will be availabel for algae as well. To remove PO4 entirely from rock, as we inferred for the cleaning of sand, an acid bath needs to be used to completely remove the outer carbonate layer of sand where the PO4 is laocated.
The problem is that sugar sand doesn't have much more left to it after the outer layer is gone. It just turns to muck.

Now if I add new sand to a tank laiden with PO4, sure, it will adsorb it. But if the tank is clean ond free from excess phosphate, it won't adsorb it at any apprecialble rate, and certainly I wouldn't refer to it as a "cycle" but rather a long process. You would expect this new sand to last several years, assuming you followed a strict maintanence routine for the rest of the tank.

[StirCrazy]

. At night my tank could be pH 8.4, but in the morning it could be pH 7.9. .

but that is still Basic, not an acidic value. so given this we should be able to soak sand in RO water say 6.2PH over night and the outer layers should be stripped off. and there will still be plenty of sand left.

anyways I am looking for the article still but here is a baise summery some one wrote in a thread, it also talks about removal and some other issues.

"Inorganic P is food, everthing in the tank wants a peice of it, bacteria.algae/corals and so on. Elements also want to bind with it, but the binds are not as strong as the organic forms. I will ive you an example. You throw in some food, the food has inorganic P in it (as it is dead and dead=inorganic, lol) The fish swallows the food, so now the inorganic is organic as the fish is going to use some. but the fish poops, animals usually poop out 90% of what they eat and keep the balance. So now the poop becmes inorganic once more. First one on the spot is bacteria, they surround it and begin the reducing feast, So right now you have an oppertunity to remove not only the inorganic form but all that bacteria which has alot of organic P bound up inside itself. Good flow and a good skimmer (along with other types of filtration if wanted) will remove both the inorganic P poop and the organic P bacteria associated. A double win for the P reduction in your tank.
Now just to side track that example for a moment and relay it to a DSb type filter and you can see that instead of exporting it via a skimmer, the inorganic P Poop goes into the bed and is taken in by bacteria and algae to form organic P. Now that bed never gives it back, it just keeps cycling the P from say organically bound P in bacteria to Inorganic P when they die, then back to organic P when the algae sucks it up then back to Inorganic form when the algae dies. the never ending and always expanding P cycle."

[Beverly]

Any advice on how to clean the fluval?

Never had a Fluval, but take the thing apart, remove the filter media and squeeze the living daylights out of it in the outgoing changewater. If you've never done this, you may find that the media needs replacement. If this is the case, put the media back in and make sure you have new stuff for your next water change.

Hopefully, others with Fluval experience will chime in here with REAL cleaning advice :mrgreen:

[Jaws]

So would you even bother using the eurithromyacin right now, or try all of the other things instead, or both?

[Aquattro]

Jason, the cyano isn't really doing anything bad, so using chemicals to remove it quickly isn't a good idea. Make the source go away, and the cyano will go away. It just takes time.

[Jaws]

Ok, sounds good. Thanks guys.

[danny zubot]

Brad said, The fluval will contribute to nitrates, get rid of it.

What about using it to run the phosphate sponge? If anything it should add extra flow right?

[Aquattro]

What about using it to run the phosphate sponge? If anything it should add extra flow right?

That would be fine, as long as the media wasn't left in long enough to culture a biological population. Ad yes, it would add flow, but there are much better devices for adding flow.