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View Full Version : Plumbing remote sump: 90s ok?


smokinreefer
03-02-2017, 12:53 AM
Hey everyone,

I may need to have to plumb a remote sump down into my basement crawl space...

Will using 90s cause any problems with the overflow drains? Wanting to use herbies.

Also, where to place the gate valve for the herbie, just beneath the overflow?

Thanks!

http://i690.photobucket.com/albums/vv267/shaong/88C2FAE2-93FB-4216-872E-0E27595A5F97_zpsixvdwugq.jpg

smokinreefer
03-02-2017, 12:57 AM
Forgot to add a couple things...

1) the sump goes in crawlspace.
2) would like to have a frag tank in-line in the stand.

Thanks

whatcaneyedo
03-02-2017, 01:03 AM
I have three 90s and two 45s on my overflow drains which is setup Herbie style. No problems here. My gate valve is also right below the overflow box, this way I'm able to tweak the flow every once and a while and watch the water level at the same time. Also, adjustments have an immediate effect.

SeaHorse_Fanatic
03-02-2017, 01:23 AM
90s are ok going down to the sump. 45s are far better for maintaining flow and reducing head loss for returning water to display.

davej
03-02-2017, 01:59 AM
BRS just did a video on 90s compared to 45s and the difference was minuscule.

https://youtu.be/h-PG4a0rU60

DiscusZ
03-02-2017, 04:14 AM
I was about to say the difference in 45 vs 90 is not much difference.

Saw the BRS video

Myka
03-02-2017, 04:51 AM
All that BRS video did was prove that two 45s glued together acted the same as a 90 which isn't surprising. They didn't test if you have a gap between the 45s which I think would make a difference. The biggest difference though is pipe diameter.

smokinreefer
03-02-2017, 06:17 AM
Great info people!

So should I be looking at 3 Lines?
1 1.5" for herbie drain.
1 1.5" for emergency drain.
1 1" for return line?

WarDog
03-02-2017, 06:40 AM
Great info people!

So should I be looking at 3 Lines?
1 1.5" for herbie drain.
1 1.5" for emergency drain.
1 1" for return line?

That will be just fine. You could also do a 3/4 for the return.

BRS just did a video on 90s compared to 45s and the difference was minuscule.

https://youtu.be/h-PG4a0rU60

I always have a good chuckle when hobbyists debate flow through different fittings. It's a plumber thing.

Myka
03-02-2017, 10:17 AM
Great info people!

So should I be looking at 3 Lines?
1 1.5" for herbie drain.
1 1.5" for emergency drain.
1 1" for return line?
You would probably get a lot more flow out of your return pump if you run 1.25" or 1.5" depending which pump you use and it's rated flow. This is around 300 gallon system? You'll be using a big return pump, and the distance you describe using 1" pipe will strangle the flow. There is a point where using too big pipe diameter will cause extra head pressure on the pump too.

The size of the drain lines depends on the amount of flow and also the distance. With a Herbie drain, don't have any horizontal lines - make sure they all have a good slope downhill. Also, install the gate valve as close to the open drain end in the sump area as possible. Don't install it under the tank when you have a remote sump.

smokinreefer
03-02-2017, 04:31 PM
Hmmm... no horizontal runs...
I have a roughly 14' horizontal run with maybe 8" of play in height...

Is there another quiet drain set up more suitable for my situation?

And to throw a wrench into the mix, if I have an in-line frag tank inside the stand, should I just feed it from a tee off the main display overflow drain and have one more seperate overflow line, or I suppose I would need an additional 2 drain lines for the frag tank (1 drain and one back up)

tang daddy
03-02-2017, 08:53 PM
The frag tank under your display could just have some water T'off from the return pump and the drain could tie in to the emergency drain to save from adding another line to the sump.

This is quite a substantial project as the run is over 25' or more from the basement to the display. I think you will have a hard time finding a return pump that can do that and still keep a higher gph unless you have a secondary pump inline to the supply boosting it up half way on the line....make sense?

smokinreefer
03-03-2017, 01:19 AM
Gotcha on plumbing the frag tank.

I get what you mean on the secondary pump.
Hopefully I can find a good pressure rated pump.

From what I have read, the D.C. Pumps just don't perform well under pressure.

tang daddy
03-03-2017, 09:19 PM
Basically you have one pump going half way then another pump inline pumping it the rest of the way, if you run an external like a dart gold you could get away with one but....a guy on the island has gone through 2 so not sure if those are the gold standard nowadays lol.

sphelps
03-03-2017, 09:35 PM
Run 1.5" for all three lines, 3/4 return is would be silly for a tank that size, would expect a plumber to know better :wink:

You can use the head loss calc on reef central to estimate total head pressure and while frictional losses are totally dependent on the pump flow rate the pump you'll probably want will end pushing close to twice as much flow through 1.5" vs 3/4".
http://www.reefcentral.com/index.php/head-loss-calculator

Also I don't see any issues with horizontal runs and a herbie drain. All lines should have some slope back towards the sump for drainage and the sump needs to be large enough for the back flow. Other than that, not much else to consider.

smokinreefer
03-03-2017, 09:57 PM
Yeah I've been reading about the reeflo and iwaki...
Guessing I'll have to go external on the return pump.

Ok, I'll run atleast 3 x 1.5" lines...

And I will probably put a check valve in near the sump to prevent too much backflow.

smokinreefer
03-04-2017, 05:00 AM
Would it be recommended to have the return line into the tank be 1.5" as well?

Or tee it off into 2x 1" lines before it gets to the tank?

smokinreefer
05-09-2017, 04:05 PM
So here's my plan for return line plumbing:

http://i690.photobucket.com/albums/vv267/shaong/0E90EC39-2253-4DAA-935C-EF4029971D31_zps0d4t5p0l.jpg

Trying to figure out which return pump I'll need...

I threw this into an online head loss calculator and it comes up with ~10.
Does that sound about right? Pretty much only the vertical height impacts it, the almost 20' horizontal runs are near negligible?

Thanks for your input!

Myka
05-10-2017, 02:29 PM
Ok, I'll run atleast 3 x 1.5" lines...

And I will probably put a check valve in near the sump to prevent too much backflow.

I would suggest skipping the check valve. They don't work very well anyway, and just another thing to mess up/need cleaning.

I'd also suggest considering making your siphon line a 1" line, not a 1.5" line. You'll probably be able to get around 1700 gph through a 1" line with that amount of drop. The horizontal section will mess it up a bit, but a smaller drain is often better than a big drain because it runs faster and flushes the air out.

Hmmm... no horizontal runs...
I have a roughly 14' horizontal run with maybe 8" of play in height...

Is there another quiet drain set up more suitable for my situation?

Yeah, in an ideal world. :) That 14' of horizontal run will affect the head pressure of the drain and it will not drain nearly as fast as it would if it was straight down. Make it slope as much as possible.

A Bean Animal drain has two drains flowing, and one dry drain. Maybe something to consider, though I don't think you need it.

Have you seen this website? Very good information on drains. http://gmacreef.com/

Here's the link to the Herbie page: http://gmacreef.com/herbie-overflow-reef-tank-plumbing-method-basics/

Also, check out this thread, there is a guy ("Eud") that has a similar system as yours already plumbed up. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2531606

Pretty much only the vertical height impacts it, the almost 20' horizontal runs are near negligible?

That's correct, for the return line only.

Would it be recommended to have the return line into the tank be 1.5" as well?

Or tee it off into 2x 1" lines before it gets to the tank?

Bring your tee up so it's level with the return bulkheads. That will save you some 90s. I'd run 1.5" to the tee, then 1" out of the tee to the elbows right by the bulkheads, and then 3/4" out of the elbows and into 3/4" bulkheads. You'll get enough flow out of two 3/4" bulkheads, you just need the 1.5" to get the water there. Make sure you support the lines really well as there will be a lot of water weight in 1.5" lines.

sphelps
05-10-2017, 10:58 PM
Horizontal pipe won't add to static head pressure, it will add to total head pressure from frictional forces only. Friction is directly dependent on the velocity of the fluid so if the flow rate is kept low enough for the pipe size, horizontal runs will add negligible head pressure since frictional forces are low. This is whole purpose of using a larger pipe size, to reduce fluid friction. Same goes for the drain, with flow rate and pipe size equal to the return you won't have any friction on your horizontal runs either, slope for drainage is a good idea but no harm will come from large horizontal runs. You're just adding more volume that will require consideration for outages.

Also note when you use the head loss calculator choose a pump that results in the flow rate you're looking for given your tank size. This will give you an accurate total head pressure and flow rate to aim for when selecting a pump.

Myka
05-11-2017, 02:48 AM
I guess you gotta decide who's advice you want to take. :lol:

roblarss
05-11-2017, 03:57 AM
I ran something similar to your design in my last house. I ran a herby and ran 3 x 1.5" lines with flex PVC. I flowed it with a hammerhead pinched way back. My vertical was about 8' and horizontal maybe 10-12 '. I used the flex as it was easier to snake up the finished ceiling/walls. My gate valve for the herby was at the tank (less weight on lines). Seemed to work fine, the drain was pinched back a ways, probably could have gotten away with 1" but I figured why not go larger to guarantee I had enough drain size.

That what worked in my situation.

smokinreefer
05-11-2017, 10:33 PM
Again, thanks for all the tips and info!

roblarss, the hammerhead was too much eh? Hmmm maybe I can get away with a barracuda.

roblarss
05-12-2017, 03:26 AM
I guess it depends how much water flow you want going through your sump. I just happened to have it laying around. My Current setup has a fairly low turnout over turnover to the sump.