Observation

[Aquattro]

I've noticed that since removing all that rock and the sand underneath it, My skimmer isn't pulling any gunk from the tank. I'm guessing this implies the rock and sand were contributing a lot in the way of dissolved organics.

Any opinions? :question:

[StirCrazy]

I've noticed that since removing all that rock and the sand underneath it, My skimmer isn't pulling any gunk from the tank. I'm guessing this implies the rock and sand were contributing a lot in the way of dissolved organics.

Any opinions? :question:

I am leaning to wards the sand contributing to the problem more than the rock. My reason for saying this is that when I moved from my old house to the new one I was emptying my skimmer overflow every day, after removing 85% of the sand and adding a bit of rock I am now emptying it every week or so.

I think because of the sand catching the crud under the rocks as we cannot get enuf flow under the rocks because of the sand to remove the crap. this is allowing it to rot instead of being removed by the skimmer which increases the dissolved organics and phosphate in the tank water.

Steve

[Beverly]

Brad,

My three tanks are all sandbed- and skimmer-free. The day before I do water changes, I clean the glass, then turkey baste the rock. There are so many crevices in the rock that crud just flies up into the water column. Some of the crud just falls back into the rock, I'm sure. Some of it falls to the bottom of the tank where I siphon it out during the water change. And some of the crud is pulled into the filter media in the Quickfilter attachments to my powerheads. Cleaning the media in outgoing changewater is an eye-opener, as the water is filthy. It takes several batches of changewater to thoroughly clean the crud from the media.

Based on these experiences, I'd have to say both sandbed and rock harbour lots of crud.

[sumpfinfishe]

While I have to agree with Bev there Brad, you also must have had to add more top off or new sw to bring level's back up after the removal of all that volume. Maybe this larger than normal water change or top off flushed out the reef pretty good-JMHO though :biggrin:

[MitchM]

..I'm guessing this implies the rock and sand were contributing a lot in the way of dissolved organics...

Hi Brad,

That's about it.
With a lot of life existing in the sand and the rocks, both on and under the surface, you now have a reduced bioload, basically. Detritus is formed by bacteria attaching to the DOC in a high enough quantity to a point that it's heavy enough to fall to the bottom and visible to our eye .
Steve makes a good point, plus the extra room in your tank helps keep the DOC suspended and gets it cleared out more effeciently, too.
IMO.


Mitch

[Jack]

A bunch of reefer's on ReefCental are setting up bare bottom tanks. Although this seems like another reef-keeping-fad the results seem to be quite impressive.

I recently setup an 80g in-wall SPS dominant tank, which some of you on this board have seen. It's bare bottom with lots of flow and my skimmer too hardly pulls out anything, only tea coloured skimmate.

I don't have much to add to this post but I can tell you I will update you in 6 months or so and give you my short experienced opinion on the bare bottom technique.

[Aquattro]

A bunch of reefer's on ReefCental are setting up bare bottom tanks. Although this seems like another reef-keeping-fad the results seem to be quite impressive.

.

Jack, bare bottom was actually the way things were run 10 years ago. Then Dr. Jaubert came up with the plenum system in the mid 90's, which evolved into DSB setups. The bare bottom though, had great success. My first reef setup was a 90g BB back in 1994, and it worked well. Reminds me, rock cost about $18/pound then!!

[Samw]

Jack, bare bottom was actually the way things were run 10 years ago. Then Dr. Jaubert came up with the plenum system in the mid 90's, which evolved into DSB setups.

Hey Brad, 10 years ago IS the mid 90's. :question: :question: :question: So bare bottom and DSB were equally used in the '90s I take it to mean??

Maybe this is the bandwagon to jump on? I better remove an inch or so of my sand then. I'm at about 2" and the sand is very dirty.

[StirCrazy]

Jack, bare bottom was actually the way things were run 10 years ago. Then Dr. Jaubert came up with the plenum system in the mid 90's, which evolved into DSB setups.

Hey Brad, 10 years ago IS the mid 90's. :question: :question: :question: So bare bottom and DSB were equally used in the '90s I take it to mean??

bare bottom was the standard along with crushed coral. in the mid 90's the plenum showed up and about the same time DSB. plenum and DSB are still two different creatures, one relying on manual removal of waist water the other relying on the sand bed to reduce its own waist. both also included Skimmers as a necessary component.

now that the fads are over people are returning to what was working be for ie. bare bottom tanks.

I think the reason for this is simple, the DSB will not function correctly in a captive system, according to the good Dr, we have only 1/100th of the variety of "bugs" to make a DSB work, and it also tends to trap a lot of crap on its surface in lower flow areas like under rocks (you should have seen mine when I removed it yesterday, top 1/8th inch UUUUGLY the rest was still new). the BB allows for complete siphoning of waist from the bottom of the tank, it allows for higher flow rates along the bottom of the tank and in between rocks keeping junk suspended so the skimmer can remover it.

Steve

[Zerandise]

how do you get past the unfinished look tho? For me that is a large part of my sand bed (2"-3"). I just cant see me liking the way an acrylic bottom looks. I guess i would have to see a BB up close.

I am getting ready to move my tank so we need to deside this issue now! :)

You have any pics of your BB Jack?

After this thread i did deside to stick with less rock tho. About 135 lbs in a 140. lots of shelves and caves is the plan with an ass load of water flow.

maybe i will cut it down to 1" sand bed too

[Aquattro]

I think using a shallow sand bed is fine, as long as you can manually clean it. Also, just put sand in the visible areas, not under the rock where it just ferments. I do still have sand in my tank, just not under the rock (for the most part, anyway)

[StirCrazy]

how do you get past the unfinished look tho? For me that is a large part of my sand bed (2"-3"). I just cant see me liking the way an acrylic bottom looks.

the coraline algae will grow over it in no time.

Steve

[Beverly]

how do you get past the unfinished look tho? For me that is a large part of my sand bed (2"-3"). I just cant see me liking the way an acrylic bottom looks.

the coraline algae will grow over it in no time.

I have found this to be true in my BB tanks.

[DukeB]

I've been thinking of this for some time now. I couldn't get past the whole bare bottom glass look.
Coralline grows every where. I don't know why I didn't think of it growing on the bottom too. I could get used to that.

[Buccaneer]

I did have some nuissance algae issues with my old 300G inwall tank which had a 2 to 4 inch sandbed and a 6 inch DSB in the sump

Steve Weast's monster tank on RC has a very shallow ( 1 to 1 1/2 inch sandbed ) up front and no sand under the rockwork as Brad has suggested ... this still gives the aesthetic look of a sandbed without the trouble of a DSB ( he siphons it regularly though )

I am currently running without a sandbed myself after the move but do have plans to put in a VSSB up front ( very shallow sand bed ) when I have built the new tank.

[StirCrazy]

another option is to find large flat rock (maybe slate tiles) to put on the bottom to give the tank a rock bottom look. actualy there used to be a brand of tanks that used slate for the bottom instead of glass.

Steve

[Beverly]

another option is to find large flat rock (maybe slate tiles) to put on the bottom to give the tank a rock bottom look.

Crud will get between and under the tiles, unless the tiles are tightly sealed to each other and the sides of the tank with, say, silicone or something.

[StirCrazy]

another option is to find large flat rock (maybe slate tiles) to put on the bottom to give the tank a rock bottom look.

Crud will get between and under the tiles, unless the tiles are tightly sealed to each other and the sides of the tank with, say, silicone or something.

Bingo, exactly what I was thinking but forgot to say :mrgreen:

Steve

[Jaws]

Would it still be ok to keep a nice amount of sand in the sump or would you lose it all together. I always thought the sand played a big part in harvesting the proper bacteria to help make a tank thrive.

[Aquattro]

Jason, the sand has the same bacteria as the rock does, so if you have enough rock, you'll get denitrification happening. How much is the "right amount" varies with porosity. But following the pound per gallon rule should put you in the right area.
I would skip the sand altogether and either go bare bottom, crushed coral or a very shallow layer of sand that can be manually cleaned.

[Jaws]

Any reccommendations on things to place on the bottom that will grow and spread quickly? I really like the look of Ricordia but it's so hard to come by and takes so long to grow.

[Aquattro]

I'm thinking coralline algae will grow pretty quickly. You could put zoos along the front, but getting the nice colors locally could be tough.

[Beverly]

Any reccommendations on things to place on the bottom that will grow and spread quickly?

Thought of that, but with stuff growing on the bottom, you impair or lose the ability to siphon out crud.

We do our siphoning in two stages, beginning by removing the powerheads to be cleaned. First stage is to siphon out the crud that is easy to get at. Second stage is we get out the turkey baster and blow the crud from under the rock to the back of the tank, then siphon out that crud. You can't imagine how much extra crud we siphon out during the second stage, probably more crud is removed the second time than the first :eek:

[rodsboys]

My biggest question about the BB setup is what do you do about the creatures that use the sandbed for cover like snails and wrasses?Do you just avoid these creatures all together or do they still thrive?

[Beverly]

Tony,

I have a fairy wrasse in my 120g and a flasher wrasse in the 67g. Both hide in the rock at night and seem to be doing okay with the BB. Don't know if these two wrasses need a sandbed, though, which is rather stupid of me :confused: Some do such as leopard wrasses, yellow coris wrasses. For the most part, I avoid at all costs gobies and other animals that require sandbeds. I feel it isn't worth the stress the fish has to go through living without their natural sandbed environment.

[Jaws]

I imagine mandarin's would be out of the question then eh? I was thinking some kind of spray bar with a smaller powerhead attached at each end might work well under the rocks as well. Only plug in the powerheads when you're about to siphon out the tank.

[Aquattro]

I imagine mandarin's would be out of the question then eh?

Nope, I think they'd be fine. Pods live in rocks, not sand.

[Delphinus]

I think I saw my fairy wrasse bury himself in the sand, only a handful of times. (Like, maybe only 3 or 4 times.) Most of the time I'd find him wedged into a crevasse in the rock somewhere so I guess, at the least the species I had, is flexible in the bedding-down choices.

When I had scooter blenny/dragonets I noticed they would bury themselves in the sand, to sleep. You'd just see an eyeball sticking out of the sand and that's it.

But my psychedelic mandarin, he just finds a spot to settle down, and turns off his colour, and that's it. He'll be just there on top of the sand, perfectly asleep. I've never noticed if he's buried himself into sand.

Anyhow hope this random rambling is of some help.

I myself can't seem to tear myself away from the idea of a sandbed. Not yet, anyhow. I did put only a fraction of sand into my 90g from the defunct 72g, and I put rock down first so there's only sand in the open areas and none under the rocks (unless there's an opening in the rock that sort of allows it). I see worm tracks and tunnels and such in the 1" of sand I did put in .... so I have to believe that something is using the sand, and that something benefits the tank by adding to the overall biodiversity .... but other than that I can't really add too much quantification.