Phosphate Reduction

[DKoKoMan]

Hey folks, im looking at different ways to reduce my phosphate levels in my 72g tank. Recently I have saw an increase in brown and green algae. When I tested my phosphates before my vacation they were around 2 ppm (I know this is ridiculous!). I am returning to my tank on Sunday and need to get the phosphates under control. I have a heavy bio-load from my fish and have a new skimmer (Ice Cap K2-160) waiting to be picked up.

I will eventually move the tank over to my new 150g (build will start soon) which should help. In the mean time I would like to reduce the phosphates to an acceptable limit, as close to zero. I currently do monthly water changes of 20g, blow the rocks with a powerhead and clean th sand. I currently run a carbon bag in my sump (25g). I do not have any media reactors (looking at purchasing) but I'm wondering if I should run gfo or bio pellets.

Looking for people's advice, as I don't want this to kill all my sps and zoas. I have noticed that my LPS have not been looking good (Chalice and Candy Cane) although my hammer and torch seem to be fine. Looking for any advice or suggestions to get this under control as setting up the new tank is still a couple mo this away.


Thanks guys!

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

By far the best phosphate remover I've used so far is FOZ DOWN. It's a product from TimT I believe. Just a few drops every other day and it'll even get rid of that nasty red fuzzy algae that almost nothing eats (except Mexican Turbos). I LOVE it.

When I used the other phosphate remover media, I often forget to change it out often enough. With Foz Down, I just add drops as part of my routine.

Anthony

[Rog]

I'm just about to experiment with NitraGuard tomorrow. Supposedly reduces both Phosphate and Nitrate. Will let you know how it goes.

[DKoKoMan]

By far the best phosphate remover I've used so far is FOZ DOWN. It's a product from TimT I believe. Just a few drops every other day and it'll even get rid of that nasty red fuzzy algae that almost nothing eats (except Mexican Turbos). I LOVE it.

When I used the other phosphate remover media, I often forget to change it out often enough. With Foz Down, I just add drops as part of my routine.

Anthony

Where can I get Foz Down?

I'm just about to experiment with NitraGuard tomorrow. Supposedly reduces both Phosphate and Nitrate. Will let you know how it goes.

Please do! I need something to work with :smile:

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=80583&page=2

Here's a link to a thread about Foz Down.

Monocus (Bill) may be able to get some to you or contact Tim.

[Myka]

If I were you, I would get a second test on that PO4 with a different kit just to confirm. PO4 at 2.0 ppm is unusually high for a reef tank. I don't usually see it that high even in poorly maintained, overstocked tanks.

Either way, Lanthanum chloride products like Foz Down and others are a good option when PO4 is that high because it's usually cheaper and the rocks and sand will leach PO4 for quite awhile. Some products are much more concentrated than other products, so follow directions closely until you know how much a dose will affect your tank. If you lower PO4 too quickly you will surely cause STN or even RTN. Some people say some fish are sensitive to LC, but I haven't seen it myself. I do a bunch of small doses though instead of big ones.

GFO is tried and true. You can use it in a bag. I find if you put the bag in the overflow near the drain or under the teeth so the water falls on it it will work better. It also works better if you gently manipulate the bag a little bit (best description I can come up with lol) a couple times a week. Reactor is the best bet though, but be careful about sucking PO4 out too fast too!

Any bacteria-based systems like NOPOX, biopellets, etc will not affect PO4 enough for you to get ahead at 2.0 ppm, so I wouldn't consider that an option. What is NO3 at?

Some other things to consider...pellet and flake foods as well as seaweed and high-protein frozen foods are all high in phosphorus. Avoid anything with bones in it such as Silversides (for anemones) as bones are very high in phosphorus. Plain, frozen Brine Shrimp are one of the lowest phosphorus foods you could pick, though it is also lower in nutrition, so it's best to not be the sole source of food.

[Delphinus]

http://www.oceanfreshaquarium.com/foz-down.html lists LFS's that carry Foz-Down. The site does say that you can contact them directly if need be.

[Scythanith]

lol.... manipulate the bag...

[DKoKoMan]

I will definitely retest once I get home on Sunday. I realized that most of my CUC have gone missing since the initital setup. I was feeding 2 PE mysis frozen cubes and 2 PE Calunus cubes (Lots of fish). I'm thinking back... I was feeding the sun coral heavily with Eco eggs and mysis. This may have contributed to higher then normal phosphates.

I'm starting to doubt the API test for phosphate though as 2ppm seems really high. Nothing worse then having to wait until your back from vacation to deal with the tank.

[WarDog]

As per my comment in another thread.

Get a Hanna Phosphorus Checker (HC - HI736) for Phosphate (take the result, multiple by 3.066, then divide by 1000). This is the most accurate tester for Phosphate...

oh, and also rinse the mysis after defrosting, and discard the liquid.

...and pretty much everything Mindy said too, lol!

[DKoKoMan]

As per my comment in another thread.

Get a Hanna Phosphorus Checker (HC - HI736) for Phosphate (take the result, multiple by 3.066, then divide by 1000). This is the most accurate tester for Phosphate...

oh, and also rinse the mysis after defrosting, and discard the liquid.

...and pretty much everything Mindy said too, lol!

Thanks Warren!!

Mindy is my go to! Always answers my dumb questions or tank disaster solutions. :redface:

[Myka]

If PO4 is 2 ppm the HI736 ULR Phosphorus checker won't read that high - it only goes to 0.6 ppm (200 ppb). :D The HI713 LR Phosphate checker may be a better option as it goes up to 2.5 ppm (this one is frickin annoying though because it only displays the result for 10 seconds before it turns off grrr).

lol.... manipulate the bag...

Perv. :lol:

[DKoKoMan]

I got what you meant Mindy! I think when I get home I will hit the LFS and get them to test the water as well for a second opinion. Seems like PO4 is really high on the test but it didn't reflect looking at the tank.

1 more day and I will be able to get it sorted out.

FTR - some nice diving around Maui (Lanai, Molakai, Molkini). Lots of different fish out and about and was fortunate enough to see lots of the whales :smile:

[Myka]

FTR - some nice diving around Maui (Lanai, Molakai, Molkini). Lots of different fish out and about and was fortunate enough to see lots of the whales :smile:

Please make a thread with dive pics/vids!

[intarsiabox]

Where can I get Foz Down?



Marine Experience sells it locally, AI may now as well.

[DKoKoMan]

Marine Experience sells it locally, AI may now as well.

Haven't been over to Neil's in a bit, that will make my life a lot easier to pick it up locally.

[hunggi74]

The ULR Hanna phosphorus checker turns off after 10 seconds of displaying the results as well. There's a video on YouTube by Marine Depot that guides you through the process. I find if the vial is not cleaned well you will get results that swing dramatically. If you get this test rinse the glass vial well with vinegar water and a brush and you will get a more consistent reading.
I would use Foz Down if your PO4 level is indeed at 2ppm. Much more economical option than reactors and media.
Lastly, don't use API test kits. They're not very reliable/accurate.
Good luck.

[shiftline]

I picked up an ultrasonic cleaner for my airbrush and learned it works well for cleaning test vials as well !


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[DKoKoMan]

The ULR Hanna phosphorus checker turns off after 10 seconds of displaying the results as well. There's a video on YouTube by Marine Depot that guides you through the process. I find if the vial is not cleaned well you will get results that swing dramatically. If you get this test rinse the glass vial well with vinegar water and a brush and you will get a more consistent reading.
I would use Foz Down if your PO4 level is indeed at 2ppm. Much more economical option than reactors and media.
Lastly, don't use API test kits. They're not very reliable/accurate.
Good luck.

Had the LFS yet my water today and my phosphates were confirmed to be 2ppm :idea: Not good (shakes head in disgust), I'm not sure where it spiralled off but I'm on it. Will be doing a water change in the next couple days (blasting rocks and cleaning sand), as well I picked up some Foz Down and dosed the first round.

Once I get the phosphates down close to zero I'm looking at running GFO or Biopellets in a reactor. Does anyone have any recommendations as to what they are using which is working at successfully keeping phosphates and nitrates down. I also picked up a Salifert PO4 test kit (hopefully this will get me by) until I can get a Hanna checker.

I have noticed some of my SPS starting to STN and found 2 frags which got knocked down on the sand bed (birds of paradise and green Acro). Unfortunately these were only skeletons upon my return from vacation. All the fish seem to be happy still. Did a major algae cleaning in the DT and restocked CUC. On another note I observed the overflow to have a large amount of hair algae that I will have to get rid of during my water change.

***stay tuned and crossing my fingers that my tank doesn't crash***

[Myka]

Yikes! Could you cover the overflow with a black acrylic lid? I get them made at a plastics shop here, costs about $10.

Maintenance, stocking, and feeding techniques can keep NO3 and PO4 at close to zero levels, but not everyone wants to follow that method. Biopellets are a good option - they work just fine in a TLF reactor. Most of the issues with biopellets are when people use too many. A lot of tanks that need biopellets also need GFO. I prefer biopellets over liquid carbon dosing (vodka/vinegar/NOPOX/etc) because there is less chance of bacteria film IME.

The ULR Hanna phosphorus checker turns off after 10 seconds of displaying the results as well.

The ULR ones I've used stay on for at least a minute or two. I've not come across an ULR that turned off at 10 secs, just the LR. That's weird that they would be different. How old is yours?

[TimT]

Lots of good info in this thread and I'd like to add a few things.

The most cost effective method of lowering high phosphate levels is to use Foz Down. It is best to slowly lower the Phosphate levels as you can easily shock the corals. Recommendation is no more than 0.25mg/l per 24hr period, even better is 0.25mg/l in a 48 hr period, especially if you have sensitive corals. Phosphate levels can be easily maintained between .02mg/l and .03mg/l with Foz Down and no need to use GFO.

While on the topic of GFO there is a few negative effects of GFO on our systems. The first being that GFO releases Iron into the water which is a nutrient for macroalgaes. Second is that GFO is used in potable water systems to absorb arsenic. It also absorbs other heavy metals, sometimes known as trace metals in reefkeeping.

My preferred method of carbon dosing is to use Vodka/Vinegar. I prefer this method over biopellets as it is simpler and easier to regulate/control. Since free floating bacteria is used as a food source for the majority of corals, including acros. It is beneficial for the corals to use Vodka/Vinegar dosing as it naturally produces a food source.

If your water sample is over range(too high Phosphate level) in your tester you can dilute sample by 50% or 75% with RO/DI water and then just multiply the results by 2 or 3.

Cheers,
Tim

[DKoKoMan]

Yikes! Could you cover the overflow with a black acrylic lid? I get them made at a plastics shop here, costs about $10.

Maintenance, stocking, and feeding techniques can keep NO3 and PO4 at close to zero levels, but not everyone wants to follow that method. Biopellets are a good option - they work just fine in a TLF reactor. Most of the issues with biopellets are when people use too many. A lot of tanks that need biopellets also need GFO. I prefer biopellets over liquid carbon dosing (vodka/vinegar/NOPOX/etc) because there is less chance of bacteria film IME.



Mindy the black acrylic lid is a great idea and I will see if I can find one. I have definitely reduced and altered my feeding habits in hope to cut down on PO4. I am thinking I will get a TLF 150 reactor and run bio pellets as part of my system. ***This is why I need to finish my basement faster to transfer the 75g in to a 150g :smile:***



Lots of good info in this thread and I'd like to add a few things.

The most cost effective method of lowering high phosphate levels is to use Foz Down. It is best to slowly lower the Phosphate levels as you can easily shock the corals. Recommendation is no more than 0.25mg/l per 24hr period, even better is 0.25mg/l in a 48 hr period, especially if you have sensitive corals. Phosphate levels can be easily maintained between .02mg/l and .03mg/l with Foz Down and no need to use GFO.


I just started using the Foz Down and can add it again today. From what I have been hearing it is a great product for reduction of PO4. I'm not sure what the negative is for long term use though.

If your water sample is over range(too high Phosphate level) in your tester you can dilute sample by 50% or 75% with RO/DI water and then just multiply the results by 2 or 3.


Never thought of manipulating the water sample this way to register for testing. I'm hoping to get the phosphate down slowly and consistently to prevent any further shock.


Cheers,
Tim

[/COLOR]

[TimT]

I just started using the Foz Down and can add it again today. From what I have been hearing it is a great product for reduction of PO4. I'm not sure what the negative is for long term use though.

Glad to hear you got some Foz Down locally.

I have not observed any issues with long term Foz Down usage. I have used it for at least 3 years in my acro culture system. There was a lot(30) of fish in with the acros so I had to keep the Phosphates under control. I would feed Pacifica plankton, juice and all, twice a day.

Once I started using Foz Down I never went back to GFO.

[DKoKoMan]

Thanks TimT for the advice! I will definitely continue to use it and stock up when o find more as the LFS only had 1 left.

[Myka]

Tim, are you still actively supplying Foz Down?

[TimT]

Hi Mindy,

Yes, I still produce the Foz Down and sell to pet shops. For hobbyists who don't have a local store I will ship.

Cheers,
Tim

[Myka]

Ah cool!

[DKoKoMan]

Awesome I didn't know you supplied that stuff! If I end up not being able to find it locally I will definitely hit you up.

[DKoKoMan]

So this morning I found my fromia star fish had not the dust! The star had been with me for 9 months. My guess is the high phosphates slowly hacked away at him.

I'm still battling high PO4, aggressively using Foz Down and will be setting up my reactors this week (Hopefully they arrive from J&L).

[Rog]

Sorry to hear about your losses. That sucks.

I set up the NitraGuard experiment on January 19.
Phosphate was 63 ppb
Nitrate was 20 ppm.

Tonight's test (one week later):
Phosphate: 63 ppb
Nitrate: 0

I'm not quite sure why it hasn't reduced phosphates (perhaps my rocks are leaching).

Anyone know where I can get Foz Down in Vancouver?

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

Contact Monocus (Bill). I don't know if any of the LFS sell it.

[Rog]

Thanks!

[duncangweller]

Rog,

You can buy foz down at King Eds

[crimper]

Rog,

You can buy foz down at King Eds

+1

[DKoKoMan]

Hi Mindy,

Yes, I still produce the Foz Down and sell to pet shops. For hobbyists who don't have a local store I will ship.

Cheers,
Tim

TimT may be an option if you get stuck.

[DKoKoMan]

I have finally got a hold of the high PO4 levels in my 75g tank. I have been using Foz Down, RowaPhos in a reactor and I have increased my water changes. Today I tested the PO4 using a Salifert test kit and found it to be in the area of 0.25 (way down from previous). I will continue my reduction plan over time until I can get it close to "0" and scale back the use of Foz Down.

Is there any particular GFO people are using for long term use?

[Galizio]

Is a bit more money but I like the Rowa better...


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[Ryanerickson]

I gave up on gfo I found rowa is way more potent then gfo by the way I tried 3 different brands of gfo also tried aquaforest phosphate minus it was horrible I was replacing that crap every 7 days.

[Galizio]

I gave up on gfo I found rowa is way more potent then gfo by the way I tried 3 different brands of gfo also tried aquaforest phosphate minus it was horrible I was replacing that crap every 7 days.



Thanks for the review Ryan , I was going to try the phos minus but I guess going to stay away...
I was dosing mb7 and biofuel and running zeolite in reactor,phos was so low don't had to run Rowa anymore... switched to AF pro bio s and np pro and running zeolite in reactor and still really low phos... the last month decided to put zeolite in mesh bag and phos and nitrate went up, so just install the reactor yesterday.... hopefully will go back to normal.....
To be clear I do not run Rowa or gfo since last June .... and phos been very low that I have started to dose phos extra special to get to 0.03


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[DKoKoMan]

What is your bio load and feeding like?

[Galizio]

3 tangs
3 wrasses
2 clowns
Flame angel
Sps, lots snails( they keep reproducing lol) hermit
Fire shrimp
Feeding frozen and pellets alternating , and seaweed 2 or 3 times a week.
Also have to dose some amino and coral food cause the tank have low nutrients


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[Galizio]

Only 100g water volume


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[DKoKoMan]

Ok well that's cool. You were able to cut out GFO media which is sweet. Do you still dose Somethong like Foz Down? Or are you able to just manage with zeovit reactor?

[Galizio]

At the moment is good just with the zeoreactor, some positive review about foz down and is simple to use, but personally I never use it myself


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[DKoKoMan]

Cool, thanks for the information!

[Galizio]

No problem...
I have to say that before the zeo kicked in I was using Rowa in a media reactor, and that worked really well for me too,


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