High phosphates-using reactor and can't get them down

[LeanneP]

I have a 90 gallon mixed reef tank and I have had phosphates as high as .22. The main reason was my R/O water, but I have solved that issue. I now have them at .12 and I have been using a phosban reactor. I used a cup of Rowaphos and in 2 days I have used it up which seems pretty crazy to me. I have 9 fish and about 6 RBTA which I am sure are contributing to the phosphates. I can't reach the anenomes as they are all at the back of my tank. I have been running the reactor for a month but just solved my water problem last week. Should I just be filling up my reactor so that the rowaphos lasts longer? Any suggestions on cheaper GFO to use?

[intarsiabox]

Are you having algae issues? If not, have you tried a different test kit?

[LeanneP]

Yes, I have cyano right now and I use a hanna checker so it is pretty consistent when I am testing.

[warriorcookie]

Sounds similar to what i just went through.

What are your nitrates at? Undetectable?

[LeanneP]

Sounds similar to what i just went through.

What are your nitrates at? Undetectable?

My nitrates are .25 so not much. Did you get your phosphates down and if so how? I am thinking it might take some time since they have bee high for a bit but just hoping they do come down since I have such a high bio load with so many nems.

[gregzz4]

When you say you've used up a cup of ROWA in a couple days, what exactly do you mean? How did you come to this conclusion?

My experience with GFO has been to use smaller amounts and change it more frequently. IE: instead of BRS's suggestion of using 0.86 cups/225mls or so per 100g, I started running 100mls (thanks Mindy). I found this helped and feel it's due to not adding so much iron to the tank from the GFO.
I change my GFO every 4 weeks, and stir it every week or two to make sure it's still getting full contact.

Doing this, I can drop my PO4 from 0.09 to zero in no time.
I've dropped it from 0.19 to 0.05 in just over a week.
And if I run any more than the 100mls it will actually strip the tank clean.
Then I get other issues, so sometimes less is more :biggrin:

[LeanneP]

When you say you've used up a cup of ROWA in a couple days, what exactly do you mean? How did you come to this conclusion?

My experience with GFO has been to use smaller amounts and change it more frequently. IE: instead of BRS's suggestion of using 0.86 cups/225mls or so per 100g, I started running 100mls (thanks Mindy). I found this helped and feel it's due to not adding so much iron to the tank from the GFO.


I change my GFO every 4 weeks, and stir it every week or two to make sure it's still getting full contact.

Doing this, I can drop my PO4 from 0.09 to zero in no time.
I've dropped it from 0.19 to 0.05 in just over a week.
And if I run any more than the 100mls it will actually strip the tank clean.
Then I get other issues, so sometimes less is more :biggrin:

I read a thread on Rowaphos that 120 mls which is just under half a cup would reduce phosphates by .05 in a 75 gallon tank. Mine is 90 with a 10 gallon sump so I originally used 125 mls. I was getting. 04 coming out of the reactor so I thought I needed to use more. I put in a cup 2 days àgo and had a 0 reading . Today I checked and it was .09 so I stirred the GFO to make sure the reactor was working right but I still got the same reading. I am assuming that it is used up? I am new to using the reactor so if I am .doing something wrong it would be good to know. Should I only be using 100 mls at a time?

[intarsiabox]

How is your nutrient export? Doing water changes, have a good skimmer and good circulation to prevent detritus from building up? When doing water changes I like to use a turkey baster to blow out all of my rocks when doing water changes, this really helps to get rid of phosphate making debris. The anemones themselves probably aren't contributing much to your problem unless you are feeding them directly all the time. I've never bothered to directly feed any of mine and they do just fine with good light and whatever they get from the water column.

[LeanneP]

How is your nutrient export? Doing water changes, have a good skimmer and good circulation to prevent detritus from building up? When doing water changes I like to use a turkey baster to blow out all of my rocks when doing water changes, this really helps to get rid of phosphate making debris. The anemones themselves probably aren't contributing much to your problem unless you are feeding them directly all the time. I've never bothered to directly feed any of mine and they do just fine with good light and whatever they get from the water column.

No I don't feed the anenomes. I have a good skimmer and I didn't think that wc really made a difference with phosphates only nitrates. My tank is full of coral so I can't really blast off the rocks too much any more.

[intarsiabox]

No I don't feed the anenomes. I have a good skimmer and I didn't think that wc really made a difference with phosphates only nitrates. My tank is full of coral so I can't really blast off the rocks too much any more.

It really depends on how you do your water changes. If you are just sucking water out of the the middle of your tank rather than getting into the sand and debris stuck in the rocks then you will have little success in reducing phosphate levels with water changes. The water change itself does not reduce phosphates but removal of the organic material causing the phosphates does.

[gregzz4]

Should I only be using 100 mls at a time?
It sounds like you do have quite a heavy PO4 issue so use whatever you need to.

How is your nutrient export?
I think you've hit it on the head.
Without consistent rock and sand cleaning I guess her PO4 is built up and now releasing.

[LeanneP]

It sounds like you do have quite a heavy PO4 issue so use whatever you need to.


I think you've hit it on the head.
Without consistent rock and sand cleaning I guess her PO4 is built up and now releasing.

OK, now I am confused because I was always told not to disturb your sand because you would just create issues in your tank. I have a conch that has always done a good job. I think that I am having issues now because my R/O was reading 10 on my tds meter and I was dumping in .22 of phosphates every time I was adding fresh water or doing a change. I have that solved now so I am hoping that eventually I will get my phosphates under control again.

[gregzz4]

Don't be confused, I think you are on the right track. Just keep changing your Rowa until the PO4 for stays down

And cleaning the sand, it just means the surface, not going deep into it

[LeanneP]

Don't be confused, I think you are on the right track. Just keep changing your Rowa until the PO4 for stays down

And cleaning the sand, it just means the surface, not going deep into it

OK, thought I missed the boat somewhere along the way!! Yes, in the directions it does say the rowaphos may be used up in a few days in the begining so I guess it is not that unusual.

[warriorcookie]

My nitrates are .25 so not much. Did you get your phosphates down and if so how? I am thinking it might take some time since they have bee high for a bit but just hoping they do come down since I have such a high bio load with so many nems.

Well, it was a bit of an experiment for my tank and I'm only a few weeks in but the results came quick. My issue was my NO3 was undetectable, and my PO4 was too as long as I used GFO. As soon as I ran out of GFO my PO4 would skyrocket fast but NO3 would stay at 0.

Wish I had more time to go further in depth, but start with the basics: weekly/bi-weekly water changes including vacuuming the sand and blowing off the rocks, good skimmer, don't let uneaten food sit, rinse food before feeding, good cleanup crew, etc.

It appears that an imbalance between nitrates, phosphates, and carbon will cause cyano as it was a constant fight in my tank.

First I started feeding the fish and corals a lot more than ever. PO4 raised quickly (over .2ppm) and eventually finally NO3 slowly started coming up. Then I resumed dosing carbon and bacteria. I use prodibio. I'm sure MB7 or the like with vodka or sugar would work too. Make sure you read on the proper way to dose carbon before you start.
Then I started to dose NaNO3 to bring up my NO3 to around 2ppm. As soon as it got high enough I had a bacterial bloom and the next day my PO4 was .02ppm without GFO! All I've had to do is keep my NO3 between 1-2ppm and it keeps the PO4 down.

I'm hoping I can keep this balance moving forward without having to dose NaNO3 on a regular basis, but we'll see. It is extremely cheap if I do end up having to dose.

The idea is bacteria need to consume nitrate, phosphate and carbon. I was putting plenty of bacteria in the tank, giving them lots of carbon and phosphates, but they were starved for nitrates. As soon as I gave them more nitrates they gobbled up the phosphates. Then my skimmer started pulling out some pretty thick and stinky skimate!

[tang daddy]

Well, it was a bit of an experiment for my tank and I'm only a few weeks in but the results came quick. My issue was my NO3 was undetectable, and my PO4 was too as long as I used GFO. As soon as I ran out of GFO my PO4 would skyrocket fast but NO3 would stay at 0.

Wish I had more time to go further in depth, but start with the basics: weekly/bi-weekly water changes including vacuuming the sand and blowing off the rocks, good skimmer, don't let uneaten food sit, rinse food before feeding, good cleanup crew, etc.

It appears that an imbalance between nitrates, phosphates, and carbon will cause cyano as it was a constant fight in my tank.

First I started feeding the fish and corals a lot more than ever. PO4 raised quickly (over .2ppm) and eventually finally NO3 slowly started coming up. Then I resumed dosing carbon and bacteria. I use prodibio. I'm sure MB7 or the like with vodka or sugar would work too. Make sure you read on the proper way to dose carbon before you start.
Then I started to dose NaNO3 to bring up my NO3 to around 2ppm. As soon as it got high enough I had a bacterial bloom and the next day my PO4 was .02ppm without GFO! All I've had to do is keep my NO3 between 1-2ppm and it keeps the PO4 down.

I'm hoping I can keep this balance moving forward without having to dose NaNO3 on a regular basis, but we'll see. It is extremely cheap if I do end up having to dose.

The idea is bacteria need to consume nitrate, phosphate and carbon. I was putting plenty of bacteria in the tank, giving them lots of carbon and phosphates, but they were starved for nitrates. As soon as I gave them more nitrates they gobbled up the phosphates. Then my skimmer started pulling out some pretty thick and stinky skimate!


Good write up with some useful advice, it's a fine balance we run with our tanks, and they let us know when we're not in check, like cyano or algae and other blooms.

I agree that siphoning with a gravel cleaner about 1-2" of the top layer every week is going to help lots with getting those phosphates and nitrates down. Just do a small section every week. Also before doing wc blast a section of rock with powerheads and return off then let it settle on the sand bed and siphon out, as long as you don't blast the coral itself it should be fine, sps can take a blasting. I use a maxijet 600 with hose on it to get into the rockwork to blow the crud out, although I have bare bottom whatever settles can be pooled in the back and is easily siphoned out.

Good luck keep on it and give us updates...

You mentioned the tds and no3 on your rodi, how often do you change the prefilters on it? Also do you change the di resin frequently?

I only run carbon and ro on mine as some have said di is not needed, also the water here in Vancouver is quite clean. I changed my prefilters every 8 months but now have been changing it every 6 months.

[LeanneP]

Well, it was a bit of an experiment for my tank and I'm only a few weeks in but the results came quick. My issue was my NO3 was undetectable, and my PO4 was too as long as I used GFO. As soon as I ran out of GFO my PO4 would skyrocket fast but NO3 would stay at 0.

Wish I had more time to go further in depth, but start with the basics: weekly/bi-weekly water changes including vacuuming the sand and blowing off the rocks, good skimmer, don't let uneaten food sit, rinse food before feeding, good cleanup crew, etc.

It appears that an imbalance between nitrates, phosphates, and carbon will cause cyano as it was a constant fight in my tank.

First I started feeding the fish and corals a lot more than ever. PO4 raised quickly (over .2ppm) and eventually finally NO3 slowly started coming up. Then I resumed dosing carbon and bacteria. I use prodibio. I'm sure MB7 or the like with vodka or sugar would work too. Make sure you read on the proper way to dose carbon before you start.
Then I started to dose NaNO3 to bring up my NO3 to around 2ppm. As soon as it got high enough I had a bacterial bloom and the next day my PO4 was .02ppm without GFO! All I've had to do is keep my NO3 between 1-2ppm and it keeps the PO4 down.

I'm hoping I can keep this balance moving forward without having to dose NaNO3 on a regular basis, but we'll see. It is extremely cheap if I do end up having to dose.

The idea is bacteria need to consume nitrate, phosphate and carbon. I was putting plenty of bacteria in the tank, giving them lots of carbon and phosphates, but they were starved for nitrates. As soon as I gave them more nitrates they gobbled up the phosphates. Then my skimmer started pulling out some pretty thick and stinky skimate!

Wow, that is super interesting! I have stopped using any carbon in the last 6 months because my coral beauty got hole in the head and is super sensitive to it. Not sure if that may be contributing to my issues but it is interesting how I have almost no nitrates as well. I am assuming you are talking about regular carbon or is there is a different kind I have missed? How are you adding the carbon and how much are you using? I am just a little hesitant to use carbon and risk losing my fish. I just have one spot of cyano in one of my lower flow areas but it is obviously telling me things are not balanced like you are saying.
Tang daddy mentioned about my R/O water. We have really bad water quality where I live, so bad we don't drink it from the tap and have boil water advisories often. We decided to get a Culligan water system so we could hook it to our fridge and also for the tank. I did not realize that the water quality would not be as good as my cheapo R/O unit I got from J & L. It was okay in the begining but after changing all the filters again I was still getting 10 on the tds meter and my NO4 coming out was .22. The membrane was $170 bucks and I still wouldn't have really had really great water so I went back to my old one. I think this is what has really messed up my tank.

[Ryanerickson]

He's talking about a carbon source not black charcoal for water clarity. A carbon source will feed bacteria. A example is np pro by aquaforest with this you would be feeding bacteria that will help reduce phosphates and nitrates your bacteria source would be aquaforest pro bio-s. I'm using aquaforest as a example there's many other carbon and bacteria products.

[LeanneP]

He's talking about a carbon source not black charcoal for water clarity. A carbon source will feed bacteria. A example is np pro by aquaforest with this you would be feeding bacteria that will help reduce phosphates and nitrates your bacteria source would be aquaforest pro bio-s. I'm using aquaforest as a example there's many other carbon and bacteria products.

Yes, thanks. I was assuming it was not regular carbon for water clarity. Never stop learning about new things when issues arise that you haven't had to deal with yet. So is this a better way to deal with high phosphates then?

[tang daddy]

Even after changing the filters you are getting bad tds this is odd as the ro membraine would be stripping the water clean one would think....

I am almost 💯% certain it's your water that is adding to the phosphates, you may want to try to add some nitrates and carbon source "slowly" to see if it helps bring down the phosphates. As Warriorcookie has mentioned he had to add nitrates in order for his phos to drop down as they play hand in hand dragging each other down.

So if you only have a lot of one and none of the other then that's where the imbalance is and alsolock your phos where it is and not allowing it to drop lower. Rowa phos will cost you and arm and leg if you have to change it weekly.

Maybe try a brightwell bio brick and add some nitrates to help bring your phos down. You can also try reef biofuel and wet skimming as a carbon source. Any adjustments you make do it slow and watch your tank close for any I'll effects.

[LeanneP]

Even after changing the filters you are getting bad tds this is odd as the ro membraine would be stripping the water clean one would think....

I am almost 💯% certain it's your water that is adding to the phosphates, you may want to try to add some nitrates and carbon source "slowly" to see if it helps bring down the phosphates. As Warriorcookie has mentioned he had to add nitrates in order for his phos to drop down as they play hand in hand dragging each other down.

So if you only have a lot of one and none of the other then that's where the imbalance is and alsolock your phos where it is and not allowing it to drop lower. Rowa phos will cost you and arm and leg if you have to change it weekly.

Maybe try a brightwell bio brick and add some nitrates to help bring your phos down. You can also try reef biofuel and wet skimming as a carbon source. Any adjustments you make do it slow and watch your tank close for any I'll effects.

Thanks for the info from everyone. The Culligan membrane is 2 years old and I did some reading and it is what takes out the phosphates not the rest of the filters. Even when it was new I think I was still at about 5 on the tds which is not really good enough so I am better off using the cheapo one that gives me 2 on the tds. I just assumed because it was a more expensive system it would give me better water but I guess us humans don"t need it that clean.

[LeanneP]

He's talking about a carbon source not black charcoal for water clarity. A carbon source will feed bacteria. A example is np pro by aquaforest with this you would be feeding bacteria that will help reduce phosphates and nitrates your bacteria source would be aquaforest pro bio-s. I'm using aquaforest as a example there's many other carbon and bacteria products.

H Ryan, I have found the pro bio-s at J & l but it doesn't look like they carry the np pro. Just wondering where you get yours from? Would I need to dose anything else to get the tank balanced again? I have got my phosphates down to .5 now but I have been getting cyano off and on over the past year so I think that I do need to do what you and Warriordog have suggested to get the tank balanced again.

[Ryanerickson]

I get mine on amazon.com but I'm pretty sure jl will get it in soon as more aquaforest products are on there way right now.

[intarsiabox]

H Ryan, I have found the pro bio-s at J & l but it doesn't look like they carry the np pro. Just wondering where you get yours from? Would I need to dose anything else to get the tank balanced again? I have got my phosphates down to .5 now but I have been getting cyano off and on over the past year so I think that I do need to do what you and Warriordog have suggested to get the tank balanced again.

Aquariumdepot.ca carries NP Pro.

[maron6977]

If you want to get your PO4 down , use Fozdown . Contact TimT on forum. Mine were as high as 70 at one time . The stuff works instantly & way cheaper than GFO . Can't tell you how much I spent on that stuff .

Now my PO4 is down to .00 & quit using Fozdown a few weeks ago .

Now trying to raise back up !

[warriorcookie]

Products like Fozdown scare me. First off, you have to get the dosing 100%. Too much by accident is disastrous.

Second, any precipitate you don't pull out with filter socks settles in the rocks and what not. What happens to it over time? I've heard lots of anecdotal incidents to give me pause.


So far my experiment with dosing carbon, bacteria and NaNO3 has been wonderful. NO3 and PO4 are both verging on ULNS with no GFO and it's cheaper than even Fozdown. I'm certainly not the first to do it, just seems alot haven't caught on to keeping NO3 and PO4 BALANCED rather than just close to 0.

[TimT]

First off, you have to get the dosing 100%. Too much by accident is disastrous.

Since I make the Foz Down I thought I'd answer your questions.

You don't have to get the dose 100% accurate. Foz Down is a much safer concentration than other products on the market therefore it is much harder to overdose. What happens if you significantly overdose... you start to get a fine white dust forming on the bottom of the tank. This is the excess Foz Down binding with the alk in the water. You can vacuum it out if you choose to or leave it there. No ill effects either way.

Second, any precipitate you don't pull out with filter socks settles in the rocks and what not. What happens to it over time? I've heard lots of anecdotal incidents to give me pause.

When your using it in the correct dosage the flocs that settle out are not visible on the rocks or bottom of the tank. You don't need to try and remove them if you don't want to.

Nothing happens over time as they are inert because it's a one way chemical reaction. The same type of reaction that occurs when adding alkalinity mix to calcium mix. The flocs that form are totally inert unless you add them to Hydrochloric acid.

I've heard lots of anecdotal stories as well. The thing with anecdotal stories is that all the info is frequently not given so one can't make any valid deductions. As well, there are a lot of things that happen in a tank that people are not aware of. I have been using Foz Down in my acro system for a lot of years and not had any problems what so ever. It's a very safe and effective product that renders GFO reactors obsolete.

I am sure that as the hobby continues to mature there will be better methods that become available for nutrient export. Until then, Foz Down is the safest most cost effective method of Phosphate Control.

Cheers,
Tim

[warriorcookie]

Since I make the Foz Down I thought I'd answer your questions.

You don't have to get the dose 100% accurate. Foz Down is a much safer concentration than other products on the market therefore it is much harder to overdose. What happens if you significantly overdose... you start to get a fine white dust forming on the bottom of the tank. This is the excess Foz Down binding with the alk in the water. You can vacuum it out if you choose to or leave it there. No ill effects either way.



When your using it in the correct dosage the flocs that settle out are not visible on the rocks or bottom of the tank. You don't need to try and remove them if you don't want to.

Nothing happens over time as they are inert because it's a one way chemical reaction. The same type of reaction that occurs when adding alkalinity mix to calcium mix. The flocs that form are totally inert unless you add them to Hydrochloric acid.

I've heard lots of anecdotal stories as well. The thing with anecdotal stories is that all the info is frequently not given so one can't make any valid deductions. As well, there are a lot of things that happen in a tank that people are not aware of. I have been using Foz Down in my acro system for a lot of years and not had any problems what so ever. It's a very safe and effective product that renders GFO reactors obsolete.

I am sure that as the hobby continues to mature there will be better methods that become available for nutrient export. Until then, Foz Down is the safest most cost effective method of Phosphate Control.

Cheers,
Tim

Thanks for the info Tim.

Not expecting you to give away the secret sauce's 11 herbs and spices, but I've always assumed Foz Down is a Lanthanum Chloride based product. I figured overdosing Foz Down would have the same effect as overdosing Lanthanum Chloride = Massive dip in Alk.

I agree on your point about anecdotal stories. Often, people jump to conclusions when the answer isn't clear.

I do like the idea of the product as I've spent far too much money on GFO over the years. I've recently stopped using GFO and just about gave Foz Down a try, but instead decided to go the bacterial route. This also carries risk of overdosing. Different strokes for different folks. Perhaps I'll try Foz Down some time in the future, feels like I've tried almost everything else in this hobby. :redface: