Nano Bubble Injection

[soapy]

I was just browsing through another website:

https://reefbuilders.com/2016/01/16/and-now-for-something-completely-different/ scroll halfway down.

and came across an interesting idea, nano bubble injection. The idea is to flood the tank with nano bubbles in an effort to turn the whole tank into a sort of skimmer in order to float junk into the overflow and on to the skimmer, promote oxygen/co2 transfer and ion exchange and somehow encourage stable PH on the counter evening cycle.

What do you guys think?

Here are the links from the page for your convenience:

https://www.facebook.com/1511705699091667/photos/a.1586411778287725.1073741829.1511705699091667/1667650386830530/?type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/1511705699091667/photos/a.1586411778287725.1073741829.1511705699091667/1667608553501380/?type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/1511705699091667/photos/a.1586411778287725.1073741829.1511705699091667/1615803182015251/?type=3&theater

[albert_dao]

Thought that's what skimmers were for... My knee-jerk reaction is it seems gimmicky.

[soapy]

Thought that's what skimmers were for... My knee-jerk reaction is it seems gimmicky.

Really? The skimmer can only skim things that get to it, this looks like it might be one way to help move that stuff on into the skimmer or macro fuge or ATS.

Enjoy a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2SmBIZVd0Y

[albert_dao]

Again, I'd argue it seems gimmicky. Skimmers skim what they get at. This concept has a finality --- The skimmer. Excuse my lack of enthusiasm, but the whole "promote oxygen/co2 transfer and ion exchange and somehow encourage stable PH on the counter evening cycle" screams of overselling. If this were a thing, the skimmer is already doing it. I don't see how this adds to what good water movement isn't already doing. Moreover, let's give it the benefit of the doubt and say it IS doing this stuff - still seems like diminishing returns.

The vid seems like a cheeky poke at me...

[Ryanerickson]

Micro bubbles in tank stick to everything including rock and glass this is a horrible idea.

[soapy]

So we know how a skimmer works, tiny bubbles are generated which use surface tension and electrical attraction to attract proteins and oils and then lift them to the top of the skimmer where the bubbles burst and deposit the proteins. That attraction and buoyancy is what is lifting those nasties. In the display tank we use water movement to move detritus from settling among other purposes. You can do a pretty good job of moving detritus around and lots of it is pushed into the overflow and on down to the skimmer. But some of the heavier stuff has a tendency to tumble around on the bottom and in lower flow areas. Have you ever watched a copepod molt tumble around in the water column for 10 minutes and finally get lodged somewhere in the rocks? The idea of lifting this heavier stuff using the extra buoyancy of micro bubbles I believe has merit. Instead of over cranking your pumps and pounding your corals with extra high flow instead buoyancy could do some of the work to lift that junk over the weir? Makes sense to me.

Are bubbles bad for fish and corals? This has been debated and I believe it has mostly been shown to be false. Especially for reef crest and upper reef species. Perhaps some of the deep water corals may be affected by bubbles? Probably sponges? So if you were to blast your tank with bubbles I would suggest putting those animals in areas of lower flow or away from where the bubbles are going. Pretty much the same way we put low flow loving corals in low flow, high light lovers in high light, etc. Fringing reefs get pounded by bubbles most days it is a one hundred percent natural occurrence. I would be surprised if they were not accustomed to it and in fact adapted for it.

So I happened to have a limewood bubbler so I've done a few tests now. I stuck it under the front edge of a return pump in my sump. Visible bubbles were filling about half the tank. The fish didn't seem to care much. In fact I have a Tang that follows me around the glass since I often hand feed him. So I stood behind the end with most of the bubbles and the tang came and hung out in the bubbles looking for a hand out. As for the corals there was at least one interesting reaction, a purple acro immediately slimed up and shedded a layer. Somewhere on one of those links I read this often happens. Is it a bad reaction by the coral or is it a natural occurrence where the corals is just shedding the yuck? It raises a lot of questions for me. Most corals seemed happy and more extended, however one big Meteor Shower colony the was directly in the path of the bubble flow closed up during the bubbles.

As for cleaning the gunk out of the display I am convinced something is going on. The first time I shut down the bubbles there was a visible protein film on the surface of the water on the less active side of the tank. In that spot there is a bit of an eddy current in one corner and it takes longer for that surface water to escape down the overflow. Some of this no doubt was the slime layer coming off the acro. I suspect lots of other junk in there too. As for the claims by Elegant Corals of nano bubbles lifting or fixing dinos and cyano? Would need to see lots of people report this to believe it.

Ok so now the bad news. When the bubbles hit the surface they pop. So if you ran this a lot you would start to see salt creep issues for sure. Most of the bigger bubbles pop in the overflow which is good. How bad salt creep would get is the question for me that remains. As for bubbles sticking to everything? The tank looked pretty much normal within 5 minutes of shutting the air down, the odd bubble was trapped here and there. I cant tell you how long it takes the bigger bubbles to dissolve, work keeps calling. I am pretty certain if you ran this for a couple hours in the evening in the morning you would see no evidence.

Is this bubble idea good, bad or indifferent? I cant say. Is it worth testing? Hell yeah.

[Aquattro]

I'm with Albert on this, seems like a gimmick. Wouldn't even consider it.

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

Don't we design sumps to specifically get rid of microbubbles from the skimmer? I personally would hate my display tank to be full of microbubbles. I would also imagine the glass lids would have to be cleaned daily to get rid of all the extra salt creep. Sounds like something that was designed by someone without a lot of real world reefing experience and came up with what seems like a "good idea" in theory but impractical under real world applications. Designers should have discussed this idea with experienced reefers before investing their time, money & effort designing and building a gimmick that is really a waste of resources. Aesthetically, reefers want clear water to view their fish and corals through, not tanks filled with microbubbles.

(In case I haven't been clear) Personally, I would NEVER try this out in my tanks.

The constantly bursting microbubbles would leave salt everywhere, including my glass tops and my LED lights, corroding the lights prematurely. When you increase the salt creep effect, you'll gradually lower the tank's salinity as your auto top off only adds freshwater while the bubbles are popping out salt onto your walls, glass tops, rim, eurobracing, hanging lights, etc.

If you're worried about your skimmer not pulling out enough gunk from the water, get a better skimmer, not add a bubbling gimmick into your display.

Before you invest in this gimmick, go buy or borrow a cheap bubble wand used in fw aquariums and add it to the front of your tank on the sandbed and plug in an air pump. This will give you an idea of the "look" you'll achieve with lots of small bubbles in your display and the amount of extra mess and salt creep you'll end up with from bursting microbubbles.

[soapy]

I'm not sure why you guys are calling this idea a gimmick? Maybe the silly terminology or the tacky feel to that first linked website. Which by the way I have no affiliation with. Nor am I selling anything. Those people don't even have their gimmick device in production yet. I am not trying to trick anyone into doing anything stupid to their tank. Perhaps this thread got off on a wrong footing?

I am merely interested in the effect and use of small bubbles on a reef tank in addition to what is already happening in a skimmer. Is it not reasonable to explore what affect fine bubbles have on fish, corals and the water column? Every day at low tide large parts of many reefs are pounded with waves and submerged in fine bubbles, how is that a gimmick not worth considering? Isn't this hobby about recreating a small slice of ocean in a little tank and everything we do works towards that simulation, so why not bubbles? The idea might be total junk or its implementation unreasonable but I would love to hear exactly why, with reasons, proof, science, that sort of discussion. Lets weigh the pros and cons, do a cost benefit analysis and see what we have here. Sometimes people learn by looking at the most ridiculous of ideas no?

[soapy]

Here is a potential real world application for a micro bubble injection system, an automated frag tank or non-photosynethetic high feed system. This is not your grandmothers fresh water plastic diver bubbler, these are bubbles reduced in size by the shearing action of a high speed return pump. There are various other micro bubble technologies being used used and tested in the water treatment industry perhaps one of these could be utilized in an industrial scale frag operation if bubbles are shown to be beneficial or at the least harmless. We know what they do in a skimmer right?

I believe the high walls and raised lighting solves the problem of bubble spray in this design. The problem of popping bubbles I do not think is as great as one might imagine in any case. Furthermore if your frag operation is located in an industrial space or unfinished basement is salt creep a huge issue?

The idea is to feed on a timer and then blast the tank with bubbles and flow a set time after feeding to cleanse the tank. This cycle could run multiple times a day. For low flow loving corals it could alternate long low flow periods with shorter high cleanse ones?

http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/soapy_photos/frag-system_zps1vsbjl4g.jpg

[Aquattro]

Sure, bubbles will work as you propose. Waste water treatment uses the exact method in aeration tanks. However, I wouldn't be interested in making my entire tank into a skimmer. I have a skimmer that performs that function already. Most hobbyists go insane now with any microbubbles in the tank, adding them on purpose isn't going to sell well.

Also, cost vs return is probably very high. I can't see a huge benefit to this over a high end skimmer. Salt creep would be an issue. I have enough of that now with surface agitation.

I just don't see this becoming mainstream for hobbyist tanks. It's just not something I would even consider.

[soapy]

I am glad to see you are beginning to warm up to the idea. Agreed, even if this thing makes sense at some point for a display it would be awhile before it is ready for primetime. Maybe never.

These guys may want to turn their entire tank into a skimmer a few hours a day:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/1/aafeature Those are butt ugly tanks anyway.

I don't see cost being a huge problem since you would be generating bubbles with the same technology as a skimmer? A return pump fed air by a limewood airstone and air pump makes a ton of small bubbles. That brings up the question of optimal bubble size, which could greatly affect cost.

[Aquattro]

I am glad to see you are beginning to warm up to the idea.

No, I agreed the technology worked well in waste water treatment. I think this, for tanks, is dumb. There's a difference :)

Fun Fact. Don't ever fall into the aeration tank at a sewage treatment plant. You will sink to the bottom and drown. :) Too much air to float, not enough to breath.

[MitchM]

Reef Central had a tank of the month, 8 years ago, that used intermittent air injection.
Pic and diagram of the setup is about half way down the page.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-04/totm/index.php

I'm not crazy about the idea if you run air injection 24/7, intermittent probably wouldn't hurt anything as long as you had strong enough flow otherwise to dislodge the bubbles from the corals and live rock.

.

[soapy]

Reef Central had a tank of the month, 8 years ago, that used intermittent air injection.
Pic and diagram of the setup is about half way down the page.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-04/totm/index.php

I'm not crazy about the idea if you run air injection 24/7, intermittent probably wouldn't hurt anything as long as you had strong enough flow otherwise to dislodge the bubbles from the corals and live rock.

.

Hey thanks Mitch, great link. Interesting setup on that tank.

I agree running 24/7 would not be good. Other places I've read that guys are running for a couple hours in the evening. I see that TOTM guy does 1 minute bursts every 3 hours. I was thinking it might be good for 1/2 hour or an hour twice a day, low tide twice a day like on a reef?

In my short tests Ive found that the bubbles don't really stick to the coral flesh or the rocks unless there is an overhang that can trap it. Algae on the other hand gets lots of bubbles caught up.

[soapy]

Here is a couple of shots from todays tests. After shutting down the air I waited
five minutes which was overkill really the bubbles clear pretty fast. Trapped bubbles take longer to dissolve but I haven't waited to time that yet.

http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/soapy_photos/bubbles-IMG_2860_zpsqnlloj3p.jpg

[Jordon]

I was actually reading this shortly before you posted!

Gimmicky would be if they were selling something, which it doesn't appear that they are at this time. So what would be in it for them exactly?

I think this is something I would try at night only, but would definitely wait for Mike's take on it when he posts his articles @ RB. I have many other experimental things on my list to try first.

This is what makes the hobby exciting; Finding interesting ways to make something "better" Yes, yes, maybe not visually pleasing, but at 3am, i'm not exactly looking at my tank, and it if improves health or has other positive effects, why not?

The whole thing here I think is will this actually work better than a skimmer, or what other effects does it have versus one? Also if there are pros to run this versus a skimmer, is the extra cleanup (possibly from salt creep) and other factors worth it?

soapy, do you have the resources to set up two small tanks to test this theory? i.e.: identical livestock, equipment, rock, sand and water conditions, with only that one variable changed? If so, that would be amaze-balls.

[soapy]

I was actually reading this shortly before you posted!

Gimmicky would be if they were selling something, which it doesn't appear that they are at this time. So what would be in it for them exactly?

I think this is something I would try at night only, but would definitely wait for Mike's take on it when he posts his articles @ RB. I have many other experimental things on my list to try first.

This is what makes the hobby exciting; Finding interesting ways to make something "better" Yes, yes, maybe not visually pleasing, but at 3am, i'm not exactly looking at my tank, and it if improves health or has other positive effects, why not?

The whole thing here I think is will this actually work better than a skimmer, or what other effects does it have versus one? Also if there are pros to run this versus a skimmer, is the extra cleanup (possibly from salt creep) and other factors worth it?

soapy, do you have the resources to set up two small tanks to test this theory? i.e.: identical livestock, equipment, rock, sand and water conditions, with only that one variable changed? If so, that would be amaze-balls.

A comparison test like that would be a cool idea. Or even just a tank to test coral frags. Some species are going to hate this but some might thrive with it. I already know of one cyphastrea that hates the bubbles and an acro that shed a slime layer, which the reefer in Mitch's link thinks that is a good thing.

One might guess that the deep water, forereef and lagoonal corals won't be as tolerant to bubbles as the reef crest and reef flat ones.

[mike31154]

Cool thread with interesting info. Don't find the idea gimmicky myself, particularly in light of other 'gimmicks' I've seen for this hobby. Certainly recall reading much about folks obsessing about microbubbles in their display caused by an overachieving skimmer in their sump. It's good to see another perspective on the effect of microbubbles.

My skimmer is in fact an old school wooden air diffuser job, diy, came with the tank. Quiet & does the job. Some years ago I happened across a glass Japanese skimmer design for nano tanks. Called a Mame, quite pricey, but a little work of art that uses a wooden diffuser & is located in the display, the bottom being open to tank water. I've considered something similar but on a larger scale for some day when I actually have a sump. Not sure I'd want something like this in larger scale in my display, using up valuable real estate. However, if one were ok with it, one may easily modify the concept with a valve somewhere to allow periodic bursts of microbubbles into the display.

Will be interesting to see how this develops further.... or not. The YouTube you linked to in an earlier post certainly leaves no doubt that shallow reefs are blasted regularly with copious amounts of bubbly goodness! And if we are indeed trying to emulate a little slice of the ocean in our tanks, why not? With our tanks being 3 feet deep at the most, why do we even bother with deeper water coral? Or a mixture of species???

Ducks head & runs...

[soapy]

Hey Mike, yes I remember those Mame skimmers I thought they were a clever design and was thinking of building a copy at one time.

Recently I was thinking of a similar idea to build a bubble containment device for those Bio-cube carbon dosing blocks. Something to contain the bubbles and salt spray but let the water migrate freely.

[soapy]

An update on the tank design which takes care of the salt spray issue. Negative pressure will also help pull any salt vapours away from any gaps in lighting fixtures.

Note also that the plumbing was drawn to keep the diagram simple, not for practicality.

http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/soapy_photos/bubble-equipped-fragtank_zpsvdoizqe6.jpg

[albert_dao]

Gimmicky would be if they were selling something, which it doesn't appear that they are at this time. So what would be in it for them exactly?


But... The ARE selling something: They are a business and selling the idea that they are the experts. Good on them. I have zero issues with that nor the fact that they choose to do this with their clientelle; but the idea that they're not selling something is blatantly false. The spread of their idea beyond their customer base is incidental to their own marketing that they are innovators and authorities.

[Proteus]

I spent a entire day talking to Cruz from elegent coral about this method. They have done this method for 15 years. Along with it being a popular method in Asia
You can check out their fb page to get more info also a thread on r2r

There is a big difference between micro bubble and nano bubbles. Nano bubbles are no more than 50 microns because of the super small size they are very slow to rise and if done correctly will rise even slower due to decreasing the weight of the water. Which is why they suggest a hard wood air stone. It is also noted to have extremely good flow to keep the bubbles from forming larger bubbles.
Almost everyone who is using this method has reported more vigorous in fish and better growth in corals, the first hours corals slime up allowing them to "shed"

This essentially turns the tank into a reef environment.
I will be starting this method on the weekend. I will keep results posted

[soapy]

Sounds good Proteus. Keep a close eye on your corals if any have bubbles stuck to corals after the air goes off you will want to blow them off. Or perhaps move these corals to a part of the tank not getting bubbles. Air stuck on the coral's tissue can cause problems.

There are many corals that rarely touch air.

The ones living along the reef crest and reef flat are most tolerant of air. Acroporas are the most common in these areas from what I read.

[Proteus]

Sounds good Proteus. Keep a close eye on your corals if any have bubbles stuck to corals after the air goes off you will want to blow them off. Or perhaps move these corals to a part of the tank not getting bubbles. Air stuck on the coral's tissue can cause problems.

There are many corals that rarely touch air.

The ones living along the reef crest and reef flat are most tolerant of air. Acroporas are the most common in these areas from what I read.

I did read about lps able to get embolism... But I only keep acros. In talking to Cruz he stated that to start you do 10 hours a night for 3 nights then down to 5 hours a night.

It has been said that this method will get rid of nuisance algae, cyano, Dino's

I have a ton of flow so not a issue with bubble collecting

I would suggest getting a hold of Cruz Arias at elegant corals if you have any questions. He has been great taking me through this

[soapy]

Since this thread has come back to life here are a few cheesy videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIGNdO_tIMs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4rJKypLijA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N83vPhJzDFA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58VvvrHAsk0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine_bubble_diffusers

[Proteus]

In two weeks elegant corals is releasing a bubble diffuser

[soapy]

I did read about lps able to get embolism... But I only keep acros. In talking to Cruz he stated that to start you do 10 hours a night for 3 nights then down to 5 hours a night.

It has been said that this method will get rid of nuisance algae, cyano, Dino's

I have a ton of flow so not a issue with bubble collecting

I would suggest getting a hold of Cruz Arias at elegant corals if you have any questions. He has been great taking me through this

I will need to rearrange my tank a bunch again before I start hitting it with bubbles. One of the Cyphastrea caught a few bubbles and it burned those spots a bit.

My tank has been through a lot lately: new lights, rock tear down, new fish. So once it settles down I will be doing more tests with bubbles. But I will wait until everything is stable again so I can see clearly the affects of the bubbles alone.

[soapy]

In two weeks elegant corals is releasing a bubble diffuser

Will be interesting to see what they bring out and how it is received.

[warriorcookie]

https://youtu.be/PDMhSH1EUEs

I'm seriously thinking about trying this. I already have a large airpump and stone. It wouldn't take very long to program my apex....


I'll be gone for 2-3 weeks, but when I get back could be a fun holiday experiment with 0 investment!

[soapy]

An updated recent article:

https://reefbuilders.com/2016/07/09/nano-bubbles-in-the-reef-aquarium/

The article is a fairly balanced examination of the topic.

Again I urge caution when proceeding with Nano bubble experiments and observe your corals carefully.

I haven't been running nano bubbles and have nothing to add. Maybe I will revisit the idea again soon.