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Coasting
12-26-2015, 06:23 PM
So i have a question i hope you guys can answer.

Best buy has a few ups backups on sale and i wouldnt mind getting one.
Murphys law.... knowing my luck power will go out the moment everyone leaves for work and nobody will be home for.... 9 hours. We have a generator and spare battery backup we can plug stuff into. And multiple battery air pumps.

I want something I can have a single powerhead (5w) plugged into that will keep that 1 item going until people get home from work and somebody can deal with plugging stuff into other things.

Now ive looked at various brands and not all list how many watts they are, but they list the amount of energy in a surge they would protect from. But many of these are only saying they will run for 15 minutes.... enough time to save your computer documents and shut down the computer properly. And they talk about software and what not.... will these backups still work for 1 or 2, 5w hydor powerheads? Will they run them for hours? Or will they shut down in minutes even if the battery isnt drained? I guess i just dont fully understand how they actually work. Dont want to end up buying one that only works when its connected to a computer with software. I want one that keeps running my powerheads when the power goes out.

Heres a few i was looking at.

http://m.bestbuy.ca/?lang=en#/catalog/productdetails.aspx?ajax=true&sku=10383227&lang=en-CA

http://m.bestbuy.ca/?lang=en#/catalog/productdetails.aspx?ajax=true&sku=10108821&lang=en-CA

http://m.bestbuy.ca/?lang=en#/catalog/productdetails.aspx?ajax=true&sku=10186845&lang=en-CA

roblarss
12-26-2015, 08:08 PM
The second and third one are about 300watts of backup power.

There are runtime charts on both these sites. Both are about 20watts for 120 minutes.
I use one similar to the APC for some pumps. They work standalone without a computer/software.

The second one http://www.apc.com/shop/ca/en/products/APC-Back-UPS-550VA-8-outlet-120V-Canada/P-BE550G-CN;jsessionid=HteLCpC28k662FAcXndp8eS4.prod_store0 3-2

The third one http://www.tripplite.com/energy-saving-ups-system-desktop-550va-120v-usb-port~ECO550UPS/

Coasting
12-27-2015, 04:47 AM
So something with 300w can only power a 20w item for 2 hours?

Ugh this is far too confusing.

I need one that will last 8 hours for a 5w powerhead.

roblarss
12-27-2015, 04:59 AM
If 20 watt will last approximately 2 hours then 5 watt should maybe last 8 hours doing some rough math. The charts don't show that exact but I would think its possible easily. I had an apc backup (don't know the rating, got at Costco) run my computer and LCD TV during an outage for a couple hours. I don't think it was that big of one.

Coasting
12-27-2015, 05:24 PM
Theres just so many mixed reviews on time frames on these things
I think I will try and give some 1-800 numbers a call tomorrow and ask the companies themselves.

Reef Pilot
12-27-2015, 06:07 PM
Or you could get a decent sized UPS system to protect and back up your computer stuff, and then use a long extension cord (if it not close to your tanks) to keep your tank pump running during an outage. A 10W power draw (2 of your 5W pumps) should last 6 or more hours with this one.
http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/cyber-power-cyberpower-1325va-10-outlet-ups-battery-back-up-lx1325gu-fc-lx1325gu-fc/10383226.aspx?path=6deb0e971f4589cdbb46ee999aefb99 3en02

Not a big discount, but free shipping right now.

Coasting
12-27-2015, 06:25 PM
Or you could get a decent sized UPS system to protect and back up your computer stuff, and then use a long extension cord (if it not close to your tanks) to keep your tank pump running during an outage. A 10W power draw (2 of your 5W pumps) should last 6 or more hours with this one.
http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/cyber-power-cyberpower-1325va-10-outlet-ups-battery-back-up-lx1325gu-fc-lx1325gu-fc/10383226.aspx?path=6deb0e971f4589cdbb46ee999aefb99 3en02

Not a big discount, but free shipping right now.

I don't usually have to worry about my laptop dying ;)

Tank isn't even remotely close to the computer at my parents place either, never mind nobody in that house uses a desktop computer anymore. And I think all the powerbars are those Monster surge protector ones anyway.
I just want to cover my ass if the power goes out while people are at work.
Just permanently have 1 powerhead plugged into a UPS so when it does go out, it keeps going.

I have no issue spending $150 on a backup.
•1325 VA/810 W capacity
•Half/full 10 minute / 2 minute runtime

Part of my brain wants to say that a 5w power head would use 5w an hour, so a 810w UPS should power a single 5w powerhead for days.... But obviously that's not how it works lol.

roblarss
12-27-2015, 06:49 PM
Heres a calculator from APC. I put in 10w for 12 hrs and it came back at 1500va. In reality from using some of these it very well could run for a fair bit longer.

http://www.apc.com/tools/ups_selector/CA/en/home/load

roblarss
12-27-2015, 06:53 PM
I have a spare on laying around somewhere, im going to put a small load onto it tonight and see how long it will run. Im kind of curious now.

Reef Pilot
12-27-2015, 07:14 PM
I have no issue spending $150 on a backup.
•1325 VA/810 W capacity
•Half/full 10 minute / 2 minute runtime

Part of my brain wants to say that a 5w power head would use 5w an hour, so a 810w UPS should power a single 5w powerhead for days.... But obviously that's not how it works lol.
No, that's not quite how it works... haha. It goes by the battery capacity not the UPS output power capacity. With this UPS, it will give 10 min running at 400 watts (1/2 power), so at 10 watts should give 400 min or 6+ hours.

But if you don't have a desktop, agree that this is overkill and paying for additional capabilities you don't need. Also note, that surge protection is not UPS power backup.

What you really need is a battery inverter power pack like these. I have two that I use at our lake cabin with solar power and take them home for the winter to back up my tanks during an outage. They have much higher battery capacity (more like a car battery) and can run my tank pumps for a day or more (have had to do that in the past).
http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/motomaster-eliminator-800a-600w-power-box-0112014p.html#.VoBDrVKLDak

I bought mine (older versions) about 10 years ago (and they are still good) during fall clearance time for less than a 100 bucks (way cheaper than this one).

And a cheaper alternative might be to get a booster pack (on sale now) and just leave it plugged in (auto trickle charge) all the time.
http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/motomaster-700a-booster-pack-0111910p.html#.VoBFDVKLDak
And use it with this inverter.
http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/camo-inverter-75-w-1998653p.html#.VoBFmVKLDak
Should be able to find these cheaper elsewhere, too.

Coasting
12-27-2015, 08:11 PM
Honestly could care less about power backup for the computers. If my laptops going to die and I'm going to loose what I'm working on, it will do it and have a melt down when the power still works.

We have one of those power booster pack thingers you linked there haha.
But I just want something small enough that it wont get in the way with the minimal space we have beside the couch and tank (where everything is plugged in) that will automatically keep running the powerhead when nobody is home. Then when they get home they plug it into the battery pack car charger thinger....

I figured the UPS would work perfectly, could mount it to the wall or side of the stand or something. But clearly I know nothing so..... lol

shiftline
12-27-2015, 08:26 PM
Ups work great. I have 3 in my house. One on the NAs/ router. One on the computer and one on the tank It beeps like crazy when the power goes out. Lol

Reef Pilot
12-27-2015, 08:26 PM
Does your booster pack have a cig lighter type plug? If so, then all you need is the inverter to plug into that. Just leave your booster pack plugged into the wall all the time (should have an auto trickle charger adapter) and your tank pump plugged into the inverter. That should give you all the run time you need for just a small pump.

Yeah, might be a little unsightly, but it is the size of the battery that gives you the capacity (run time) that you need. Small might be nice, but they won't last very long. Not sure what your set up looks like, but maybe you can hide it a bit, out of the way?

Yes, a real UPS looks nicer, but the size you need would still be quite obtrusive. And overkill, like we said before.

Coasting
12-27-2015, 09:43 PM
Its my mothers house not mine that's half the problem :lol:
I know she liked how yours was all set up and hidden in the kitchen and downstairs :P

It has normal outlets in it, i wouldn't need an inverter. Its what we bring up stairs and start plugging stuff into when the power does go out. I don't really want something that size up stairs by the tank, there really isn't a huge amount of space.


http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l88/Lolaandthecrowd/Fish%20Tank%20-%20SW/LightTank001.jpg

Old photo but that's what I'm working with. Space between the couch on the left and the side of the tank. All my powerbars are crammed down there, the couch is a bit closer now.

I'm only asking for enough run time out of a ups to get it through a typical work day until the power head can be plugged into the big ugly battery pack/car charger thing or we can put a battery air pump in.

Reef Pilot
12-27-2015, 10:40 PM
OK, well, sounds like you already have what I was suggesting. Looking at your pic to the left, isn't there room behind/beside the couch? They aren't that big?? Mine is 9" wide and 14" long (just measured it). Just pull out the couch a bit. And/or maybe put something else there in front to hide it further.

mike31154
12-27-2015, 11:42 PM
There are pros & cons to UPS as backup for something like a powerhead. As ReefPilot mentioned already, the key to run time of your powerhead is the ampere hour (a/h) capacity of the battery in the UPS, which typically is not that great, since the primary design is to keep a computer running long enough for you to shut it down without losing data. The math isn't that difficult, it's Ohm's Law in conjunction with the a/h rating of the battery in the UPS. The variable that's a bit obscure in all this is the Hour (h) and that's why you need to now the a/h rating of the battery in the unit you intend to use. Most of them do provide charts listing typical loads & how long you can expect them to last. In your case an ideal set up would be a 100 watt UPS with 40 a/h battery. You don't need a high power (1,000 watt) UPS to run a 5 watt load, but you do need a big honkin' a/h battery so that you can run those puny 5 watts for a very long time. Sadly, most UPS units are not built that way. Note that the 'a' in a/h is amps or I(current) as used in Ohm's Law.

P(watts) = E(voltage) x I(current in amperes). You already know the powerhead uses 5 watts, so you need to calculate the current (I) it draws at it's nominal operating voltage (E). Transpose the formula & plug in the numbers I=P/E. Once you have that number use it in conjunction with the a/h rating of the UPS battery(or any deep discharge battery) & you will have an approximate run time for your 5 watt powerhead. Most reasonable sized UPS units should handle a 5 watt load for a few hours at least. Keep in mind that as any battery ages, it's original a/h rating will decline, even if it's not used. In some cases battery life is actually shortened if it's not given a deep discharge from time to time.

Personally I'm not a fan of these residential consumer grade UPS units. I've never owned one but my Dad did & it failed after a couple of years. I dismantled it to see what was up & found the battery bulging at the sides. It could have burst or started a fire IMO. Some of these units have next to no ventilation & that's why they use these sealed batteries. I think they are time bombs. I see that some of them now offer replacement batteries so the unit is not trash once the battery fails, as it ultimately will. That's great, but I doubt that the average consumer keeps an eye on these things & essentially run them 'til they quit. They are plugged in 24/7 & even though the chargers are pretty smart these days, constant charge cycles eventually cause the electrolyte to evaporate & since you can't top them up, they overheat & fail.

The alternative is of course to use a good old deep discharge wet lead acid battery that you can keep an eye on & maintain. Might be what's in those Can Tire boost units. The issue now becomes proper ventilation of the hydrogen gas produced during charging. Probably not that big an issue if there's only one battery & it's a reasonable size.

GrantB
12-28-2015, 07:13 PM
Hey also be aware that unless they have changed recently the normal computer UPS's won't run an AC pump very well. I have tested this on large AC pumps which would not turn over at all and also on tiny powerheads which would run but no where near full power. I did buy a true sine wave UPS that worked great (other than very limited capacity) but they are way more money.

I ended up going with an auto transfer switch, True sine wave inverter, charger and sealed AGM battery so there's no venting of hydrogen gas. More money but you can run everything for hours and if one part goes your not replacing the whole thing.

Coasting
12-28-2015, 10:13 PM
Id appreciate links to some of these products :P im not a DIYer and know nothing about electrics or this kinda stuff :( haha
I need an adult!

GrantB
12-29-2015, 05:28 AM
Hey I just ran my 750VA sine wave UPS on a small pump that was registering 4 to 5 watts on a power meter and at a little over 2 hours the battery was down to just under 50%.

So even with a 1500VA sine wave UPS you may be lucky to get over 8 hrs. My UPS is about 2 years old and it says the battery is fine but it may be down a bit too.

Cost to run a real system is quite a bit more (probably around $500 to start) but you can tailor it to your needs and it would run way more gear.

I agree with the person who said that UPS batteries are crappy I have had a set bulge and it wasn't pretty.

From my calculations a basic real backup system should have about 5 times the runtime for about $500 (with some items on sale) compared to an approx $200 sine wave UPS.

shiftline
12-29-2015, 06:58 AM
I'm debating just hooking up lather batteries to my ups to increase run time. I may also have to install additional fans for cooling to balance out the extra heat on then electronics

mike31154
12-30-2015, 02:31 AM
I'm debating just hooking up lather batteries to my ups to increase run time. I may also have to install additional fans for cooling to balance out the extra heat on then electronics

Unless you have some knowledge of power supplies, charging systems & various battery types, you may get yourself in trouble trying to modify a UPS unit designed around a certain battery capacity by using a larger or different battery. Basic components of a UPS are power supply, charging circuit, battery, relay & inverter. These components will all be designed to operate safely as a unit & are approved as such. Messing with any one of those blocks opens you up to possible problems & invalidates the original design. The manufacturers don't build a lot of overhead with regard to safety buffers on these units. They need to make money, so they don't use components any larger or with more capacity than is necessary.

You may need to do more than simply add a cooling fan or two. If the wire size for charging the battery or in other parts of the circuit is insufficient for any increase in current flow, a fan isn't going to do much, sooner or later the circuit will cook or catch fire.

shiftline
12-30-2015, 04:02 AM
Well my theory is the unit will charge a larger battery of the same chemistry fine.. But just take longer. I would want to add a cooling fan to blow across the transformer and another above the heat sinks.

It wouldn't hurt to change the 10awg batter wires to 8awg

I think the only real issue would be extended run time loads overheating or melting the circuitry. A small load and cooling fans would hopefully remedy this


I could wire the mp40s and the Jabeo return pump directly too the batteries so there would be a very small load to run through the ups it self
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/29/a1a63a9ae474b08177b578d0cdf2c79f.jpg

BC564
12-30-2015, 03:50 PM
I have a 1500va UPS, online type, on my display tank to protect my LED lights and equipment from power surges but also for the annoying power outages that last a few minutes....tested lastnight and it ran 4 LED AI sols, return pump, skimmer pump, a Jebao WP40 and a gyre 150 for 25 minutes. When I leave for Mexico it will only be on there to back up power for the gyre. The other equipment will plug into the surge protection only side.

Coasting
12-30-2015, 05:05 PM
I think this is the most complicated topic I started :neutral:
Wish I spoke electrical.


Those battery packs from CrappyTire wont work it seems, something about the on/off switch and not charging properly when its left on with stuff plugged in or something, cant remember what my dad said.

Most of the UPS have a 3yr warranty. I don't think the price is horrible for something thatll last 3 years potentially.
I just don't want stuff to start dying while people are at work because the power decided to go out the moment everyone leaves the house. While my shifts can run in excess of 14 hours, they are usually back within 8.

hillegom
12-30-2015, 05:29 PM
I think one of the best things you can do in the case of a power outage is to create water movement, which is what u wanted to do with that 5W pump.
You might want to think about running a battery powered air pump.
Mine is plugged into 120V, the wall outlet. When the power goes out, the air pump starts automatically. D batteries run it for at least 24 hrs.
The air line goes under a rock.
Under $15

BC564
12-30-2015, 07:02 PM
Really a UPS is a pretty cheap piece of equipment to buy. The surge protection itself is worth a lot as you know we have a lot of money invested in our equipment. The only reason I bought a 1500VA UPS was to run my basement sump in the event of a power failure during a heavy rain so not to flood my house. It worked but now its winter and put it on my display tank for the same reasons we are discussing. Check on ebay for one. I got mine on there for $98 US. Even if you only want to run one powerhead for water movement, you can still surge protect other equipment.

Coasting
12-30-2015, 11:17 PM
I think one of the best things you can do in the case of a power outage is to create water movement, which is what u wanted to do with that 5W pump.
You might want to think about running a battery powered air pump.
Mine is plugged into 120V, the wall outlet. When the power goes out, the air pump starts automatically. D batteries run it for at least 24 hrs.
The air line goes under a rock.
Under $15

I have 4 or 5 battery powered air pumps actually, but none of them plug in.
Where do you find one that plugs in and runs off battery? That might work for my goldfish actually.... I cant STAND the constant splatter of salt water on everything that you get with an air pump in a salt tank so I don't think I'd be able to run an air pump all the time in there. Would drive me nuts. I even have foam at the water line for my drain lines in the sump so I don't get any down there either haha.

Really a UPS is a pretty cheap piece of equipment to buy. The surge protection itself is worth a lot as you know we have a lot of money invested in our equipment. The only reason I bought a 1500VA UPS was to run my basement sump in the event of a power failure during a heavy rain so not to flood my house. It worked but now its winter and put it on my display tank for the same reasons we are discussing. Check on ebay for one. I got mine on there for $98 US. Even if you only want to run one powerhead for water movement, you can still surge protect other equipment.

I admit I wouldn't be upset if I had to replace some of my equipment due to surge loss, what I have honestly isn't that expensive LOL. Perhaps just my lights and skimmer are worth protecting....
Definitely an idea.
We still need to upgrade the house to whatever the modern standard is LOL
I've got so much crap plugged into a single outlet on that wall, I think I need to run a powercord from another outlet that's on a different circuit to disperse some of the load.

Either way I still have to settle on a UPS I like that suits my needs. CAD sucks right now, I don't think the price difference is worth it, but I can check. I do plan to head down to the states In January sometime once or twice for some light shopping.

mike31154
12-31-2015, 09:21 PM
I have 4 or 5 battery powered air pumps actually, but none of them plug in.
Where do you find one that plugs in and runs off battery?

Search the net for Penn Plax Silent Air B11. It is a low cost Auto On Battery Powered Air Pump.

J&L have this version in stock, looks like an exact knock off:
http://www.jlaquatics.com/dry-goods/aquarium-supplies/air-pumps/aqua-top-ac-dc-one-battery-powered-air-pump.html

I have 2 B11's on my 77 gallon sump-less tank, no UPS or any other sort of battery powered back up. One of these days I'll get around to building a battery backup for my VorTechs. Having never experience an outage here that lasts more than a few hours, I've become complacent in that regard.

Anyhow, with the penn-plax or aqua top, hook the flexible air tubing to a rigid line that will expel the air near the bottom of the tank when the pump senses an outage & switches on. The rigid air line is secured with a magnetic clip so it doesn't wander to the surface when air is on. Don't use an air stone. This set up creates larger bubbles that travel from the bottom adding O2 & creating at least a little bit water movement in the process.

There's actually another little gizmo you can build using rigid air tube & some pvc specifically designed to move water using an air pump. Don't recall the terminology at the moment, but it's essentially a pvc elbow at the top of a short piece of straight pvc tube. The straight tube is cut at an angle at the bottom & a hole to accommodate a length small diameter rigid air tube is drilled into the top of the elbow. The air tube is pushed through the hole in the elbow to just above where the angle cut starts on the straight piece. The assembly is attached to the side of the tank with the opening of the elbow half in & half out of the water. When air is pumped through the air line, it creates upward turbulence in the pvc tube which is transformed into water movement at the elbow opening. Would probably be the bees knees for your gold fish or any small tank, breeding tank etc. Just enough water movement, no splashing etc. I have some photos of this rig & built a couple, but have no small tanks atm so they're just lying around gathering dust. I'll post up a photo when I find it.

mike31154
12-31-2015, 09:34 PM
Found the gizmo photo. It's called an air lift. I saw a post on a forum some years ago where a chap used a bunch of these to create a circular flow in a small tank.

https://tsl4pa.dm2302.livefilestore.com/y3pEnNLqtMqMwWOxI_hY0RyYh7nXNKO5provt_9GYu9zDpuBcI crTZdwcVpYJxovkWtxSWNfLZ4etAejlWU7EKI4Kv9RQkjuVygw z_mdnikrZ7gLr1e9rJ7W9HL4ycV1Lx-/P1070008e.JPG?psid=1

I chose not to use these on my B11 backups since they are bulky & my sump less display already has enough gear distracting the view of what's important in there, so just use the small rigid tube. You could buy a hockey sock full of the battery air pumps for the price of a UPS & probably be fine with them during an outage until you got home.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airlift_pump

Coasting
12-31-2015, 10:06 PM
Oh that's pretty cool. I didn't know ones with cords that only turned on when the power went out even existed. I know what I'll be buying!

I'm having trouble picturing how that pvc tube works.

mike31154
01-01-2016, 05:05 PM
Oh that's pretty cool. I didn't know ones with cords that only turned on when the power went out even existed. I know what I'll be buying!

I'm having trouble picturing how that pvc tube works.

Yes, the electrical cord that plugs in goes to a small relay inside the pump. As long as the cord is plugged into the wall, the set of contacts that completes the circuit to run the pump from the D cell batteries are held open. Once the outlet the cord is plugged into loses power, the contacts close, completing the battery circuit et voila, the pump runs on the batteries. Similar concept to what happens in a UPS, but much simpler.

As for the air lift, the wiki I linked to doesn't explain the principle well enough?? The only difference in the article graphic Figure 1 is that they have the air supply line feeding through the vertical tube at the bottom through a bulkhead. My gizmo photo has the air supply tube fed through a hole in the top of the elbow. Works the same way. Of course the wiki article also goes on to show the modified/improved geyser version. The advantage to the version in my photo is the air tube can be adjusted up or down inside the pvc tube to fine tune the air lift effect. The version shown in wiki with the tube entering the bottom in a fixed position does not allow for that.

EDIT: One more thing to note, although I did explain in my original post about airlifts, is that in our case, the opening of the elbow at the top of the assembly will be half submerged. In the wiki figure they show the elbow above the water surface. Their application has the water being pumped/lifted out of the tank. In our case, with the elbow half submerged, the water is discharged back into the tank at the surface, creating a moderate flow.

mike31154
01-01-2016, 06:20 PM
Here's a link to one of the better vids I can find on the workings of an airlift. A bit lengthy, but should leave few questions unanswered. These things clearly have a lot of applications. Most of us likely have the parts needed kicking around the house already, so not a lot of effort to slap one together & see how it works.

https://youtu.be/_j0tmCc5Z3Y

In essence, the construction is similar to an air stone skimmer. Micro bubbles in the skimmer pick up organics & transport them to the surface, the air lift uses larger bubbles to bring water to the surface more effectively. The elbow at the top either discharges the water back into the container, or out, depending on the application. I wonder if a venturi part way up the riser pipe would improve lift efficiency.... a patent in the making??

Here's my skimmer, shows the rigid airline inside the skimmer body, same idea for my version of the airlift:
https://tsl4pa.bl3301.livefilestore.com/y3pH_cgaOaeGMInFukVgO-RkZfOsPabX5RRq32qmVC_yW5fv5Um6LDCS2-uUtyywlzLNj8KTaWhU_bUoG8Y7oDSHA0qVFuTEZCXsSUExqrbB 6eplTLN2B_jpWMZUiTdfP_U/P1010815d.jpg?psid=1