Environmental Impact of our Hobby. [Archive] - Canreef Aquatics Bulletin Board

Aquattro

12-19-2015, 12:45 AM

I go out for hours and this is it? :)

I guess this spawns from a comment once said to me, that a real reefer would care about the impact to the local landfill in relation to discarding cheap equipment.
My thought is this. A real reef lover, someone that truly loved fish and corals and that comes with it, would leave these things in the ocean.
Are we not somewhat selfish in our pursuit? How many fish die for each one we keep? I mean from capture to us having a fish 6 months later, how many never made it? How many corals die during harvest, transport, poor handling before we get the "hang of it"? How many reefs are blown with cyanide to provide us a single fish?
What about resources to manufacture the systems we use? The salt we mix? The water we waste?
Sure, we all take steps to minimize all this, but still. Isn't there some impact, and really, no return for the environment?

Just food for thought..

crimper

12-19-2015, 01:12 AM

The way things are going in general, soon the only place you will be able to see a reef is in a tank.

Imo, the hobby is not the biggest threat or impact to reefs at this time.

+1

Aquarium trade is not the main reason why we lost 10% of the living reef. As long as we continue to do informed and ethical reef keeping practices we should be able to minimize the environmental impact of this hobby.

There are lots of things that we can do to contribute in the conservation of the living reef in our own little ways. A simple information campaign through social media, forums, website, internet etc. will help in the information dissemination on how we can have a sustainable reef. We don't even have to go to the Tropics do something about it.

I have learned a lot from this hobby, I was once ignorant on the environmental damage that we are causing to the living reef. In return I'm appealing and reaching to my roots, support conservation efforts in my home town.

my 2 cents.

Reef Pilot

12-19-2015, 01:20 AM

+1

Aquarium trade is not the main reason why we lost 10% of the living reef. As long as we continue to do informed and ethical reef keeping practices we should be able to minimize the environmental impact of this hobby.

There are lots of things that we can do to contribute in the conservation of the living reef in our own little ways. A simple information campaign through social media, forums, website, internet etc. will help in the information dissemination on how we can have a sustainable reef. We don't even have to go to the Tropics do something about it.

I have learned a lot from this hobby, I was once ignorant on the environmental damage that we are causing to the living reef. In return I'm appealing and reaching to my roots, support conservation efforts in my home town.

my 2 cents.
Totally agree. Didn't realize how ignorant I was about reefs (and esp corals) until I got into the hobby. Now am far more aware and interested in preserving the planet's reefs.

Probably could say the same for the Vancouver Aquarium. I think they have made people much more aware of marine mammals (and other sea creatures) which has ignited more interest and effort in protecting our oceans.

rsisvixen

12-19-2015, 01:31 AM

jorjef

12-19-2015, 01:51 AM

We take 100 percent, give back zero.. Net, very negative affect.

GoFish

12-19-2015, 03:21 AM

I think environmental impact, overfishing,pollution, tourists breaking things off the reef for a souvenir and introduced species ( such as the lionfish and the crown of thorns starfish ) are probably far greater threats than our hobby will ever be.

I think most hobbyists are probably more aware of the reefs predicament than anyone else out there.

This sums up my thoughts pretty well. There is no doubt that the aquarium trade has a negative impact on our environment (reefs) but it's a probably a very small percentage of hectares destroyed in other ways. That video posted earlier about dragging nets through reefs to collect giant clams was gross. Also that video about the South China Sea off Palawan dredging reefs to reclaim land ugh... Being a hobbiest now has opened my eyes to how sensitive these creatures are that we put into our tanks, I'm also amazed at times how resilient they can be. I made a choice last year to no longer buy wild caught fish or wild corals, not sure if one person has much of an effect but I feel better about it

Global warming will progressively have more of an impact as every year goes by

These videos don't exactly relate to the title of this thread but there's a couple things we can do differently to have a positive, or not so negative impact on reefs.

Super corals...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DtCDquEYzPE

Reef safe sunscreen
http://www.padi.com/blog/2013/06/27/coral-reef-safe-sunscreen-for-scuba-diving/

Aquattro

12-19-2015, 04:34 AM

We take 100 percent, give back zero.. Net, very negative affect.

Ya, I tend to agree. Lots of arguments minimizing the impact, as in not as bad as "X", but nothing positive.

I gained a strong liking of killer whales after seeing them live at the aquarium, but I still disagree with keeping them :) Sure, not as bad as killing them with pollution or sticking a harpoon in their heads, but the question here is "is reefing good for the environment", not is reefing as bad as other things affecting wild ecosystems? Two different things.

So how is our hobby good for the wild reef? How many of us, out of all of us, have gained a passion for reefs and given back in any way?

kien

12-19-2015, 04:40 AM

I think I probably do more harm going out to sushi once a week.

Aquattro

12-19-2015, 04:42 AM

I think I probably do more harm going out to sushi once a week.

Sure, but that's food. It sustains your family. The tank is purely recreational at the expense of the creatures inside. Some could argue that sushi is recreational, depending on your chopstick skills :) But I digress...

daplatapus

12-19-2015, 05:28 AM

Does me having Nemo in my tank affect a reef...? Sure. Does me having all those fancy gizmo's to keep Nemo alive impact the environment....? Sure.

Me living on this planet impacts the environment. And If I've learned one thing about the negative impact I and others have had on this planet is that the only way to minimize that impact is by education.
The problem many people have is they are ignorant of their impact on the world around them. And some just don't care. We'll have a hard time fixing those people.
Ignorance can changed. If you can get people to care about something, show them how beautiful things are that unless they dive and go see it for themselves, you may get them to care about the bigger picture. You can watch all those shows on the Love Nature channel, but seeing those same animals live has an affect on people. Although, to be sure, seeing reefs devastated by greedy buggers doesn't hurt to make people think either.
I know for a fact, many people who visit my house and see my tank think differently about the ocean and the things in it. For the most part many of them have no idea what's under there. The kids are enthralled to see a tank. Maybe teaching them may help the next generation....

But ultimately I have a tank because because I love the look of a pretty blue box in my living room.

Brad, you pot stirrer you

kien

12-19-2015, 05:30 AM

Actually, I don't need sushi to live. It's just as much a luxury as the reef tank.

Mankind has domesticated plants and animals for eons. For various purposes and for better or for worse. Well, for both actually. Personally, I am under no delusion that I am helping the reefs in any way. What I do know that I am doing is my best to provide a long and healthy life for the creatures that are under my care. This includes the tank as well as my gerbils and all my house plants.

I'm no specialist by any stretch of the imagination, but I would like to think that the creatures that are captured for the trade have nearly an equal chance against any other natural predator. Yes, I know humans have an unfair advantage (tools, chemical, etc), but fundamentally we are just another predator. So yes, by extension I am a predator to these fish. However, I am probably the nicest predator they will ever encounter in their lifetime. If you gave them a choice between me and my 150g tank versus a barracuda, I wonder which they would choose.

Sorry, what was the question again? :lol:

Dearth

12-19-2015, 05:32 AM

This question pops up often and to be honest there is no easy answer has the hobby harmed the ocean yes it has but to what degree nobody can really answer the same goes for how much has the hobby helped the oceans and there is no question this hobby has helped the oceans but again to what degree is anyone's answer.

Now to step outside the box I am not what you would call an environmentalist I live and work in an industry that cuts down trees for a living to make people's lives easier however environmentalists and Eco-terrorists would have the populace believe we are destroying our forests and habitat for animals. Sadly most people go off half cocked and start spouting logging is evil, pulp and paper is evil and so on (surprising considering most of these people live in and use what we make from trees how eco friendly are they really). It would probably surprise many that forests across the world have actually increased in size including here in BC and there is more habitat available than 25 years ago however most environmentalists and Eco-terrorists don't want to hear that all they hear is what they want to hear.

So what is the point of my out of the box post everything above can be superimposed over the oceans including fishing and collection farming. 30 years ago everybody went crazy with pulling things out of the ocean it is after all a renewable resource then about 20 years ago it was realized that the oceans were changing with overfishing, massive destruction by drag netters and trawlers and collectors of species however it took time to get international regulations in place in the mean time oceans were dying now jump to the present previously killed coral fields and out fished areas are replenishing and while some areas are dying other areas are flourishing but you never about these in the news why is that.

So again how much has the hobby hurt the oceans probably less than we think how much has this hobby opened people's eyes to the ocean and its beauty a lot has it made an impact that is hard to say only time will tell with actual science and not because it makes a good story to thump chests over.

Aquattro

12-19-2015, 05:56 AM

This is pretty much me

But ultimately I have a tank because because I love the look of a pretty blue box in my living room.

Justified kinda like this :)

If you gave them a choice between me and my 150g tank versus a barracuda, I wonder which they would choose.

Dom, not really trying to stir the pot(much), just engage in a bit of thought with what we do. When I have time to actually sit in front of my pretty blue box, I often think of these things.

Do we hurt? Sure, I don't think there's an argument against that. Does it matter in the big scheme of things? Probably not that much. As Kien says, how many fish do we save from those evil barracudas every year? :)

Perhaps those nights where we get to sit in front of the tank and ponder, we might ponder on how to make things better. Or eat popcorn. One of those.

rsisvixen

12-19-2015, 06:37 AM

Well human kind is pretty much a negative impact on every environment on the planet if you really want to get down to it not just the reefs, and once we start really getting out into space more we'll probably find a way to negatively impact the solar system as well ;)

But I digress, strides are being made to put corals back into the ocean and reefs and maybe one day we'll be able to reintroduce species back as well.

Aquattro

12-19-2015, 06:43 AM

Well human kind is pretty much a negative impact on every environment on the planet if you really want to get down to it not just the reefs, and once we start really getting out into space more we'll probably find a way to negatively impact the solar system as well ;)

Oh, for sure. I bet our reefing activities aren't even a blip on the radar compared to everything else :) I have more plastic in my TV than all my reef gear put together!

Reef Pilot

12-19-2015, 02:38 PM

Now to step outside the box I am not what you would call an environmentalist I live and work in an industry that cuts down trees for a living to make people's lives easier however environmentalists and Eco-terrorists would have the populace believe we are destroying our forests and habitat for animals. Sadly most people go off half cocked and start spouting logging is evil, pulp and paper is evil and so on (surprising considering most of these people live in and use what we make from trees how eco friendly are they really). It would probably surprise many that forests across the world have actually increased in size including here in BC and there is more habitat available than 25 years ago however most environmentalists and Eco-terrorists don't want to hear that all they hear is what they want to hear.

Reminds me, many years ago, had to go work (in a sawmill) up north (near PG actually) one year to make/save up enough money so I could finish school. Prior to that, I was definitely anti-logging (dominated media at the time), but got a real eye opener while I was up there. What I learned is how more in tune the people up there are with the environment, not just with working outdoors, but playing outdoors as well with fishing, camping, hiking, etc.

So makes me wonder too, whether the collectors in the indo pacific, where we get our corals from, are really damaging the environment as much as the media wants us to believe. They live (and play) there, so would think they have some interest in not destroying their own environment. And just like logging, have to believe that "sustainable harvesting" practices have evolved to encourage that.

I take much greater exception to resort building in some areas (that I have seen in person, like Mexico and the Caribbean) where the associated fill and artificial beaches, have created silt and pollution that kill off the sensitive corals. I have gone snorkeling there and have seen the crumbled stick piles of dead SPS forests. And it is us, as tourists, that ultimately are the cause of that, too.

Reef Pilot

12-19-2015, 03:06 PM

And it is us, as tourists, that ultimately are the cause of that, too.
And to link back to the OP's subject I would say it is being in the hobby that has made me more aware and sensitive of the damage that resorts create. Most non hobbyists have no idea, when they see the white sand beaches and go snorkeling there, how the resorts have damaged the corals and reef environment.

So my argument would be that if more people would be in the hobby, there would be more awareness and support to protect reef environments. Hence our hobby is actually good for the environment!!

Aquattro

12-19-2015, 03:14 PM

Apo Reefer

12-19-2015, 03:35 PM

Ok, so awareness creates empathy towards the preservation. How is this implemented in practical terms? I'm pretty fond of reefs, but I still go to resorts :)
In other words, what actions are created that offset the damage we do?

Here's one way, these are informed youth making a difference after seeing the devastation of their reef:

https://youtu.be/npOtFNOZ4vc

Reef Pilot

12-19-2015, 03:39 PM

Ok, so awareness creates empathy towards the preservation. How is this implemented in practical terms? I'm pretty fond of reefs, but I still go to resorts :)
In other words, what actions are created that offset the damage we do?
I now avoid and don't go to resorts where they have destroyed the reefs. That's why I prefer Hawaii (in particular Maui) where there is much more awareness, protection and responsible resort/shoreline development that does not destroy the environment, like in Mexico and those parts. I think the local marine aquariums in Hawaii have also made the public (and tourists) more aware of the local reef environment there. And I think that is what Vancouver Aquarium does as well for us.

So if you really want to help, Brad, don't go to Mexico resorts, and tell all your friends not to... Sure, it is a small part, but your own tank is a small part too.

When friends/family come over to our house and see my tank, I also take the opportunity to explain the reef environment, and tell them how bad some of these resorts are. So my tank is also educational in that way.

And another thing, buying only cultured corals (not wild caught) also helps. Better yet, buy more from your local hobbyist instead of online importers. And yeah, yeah, I know that is not a popular stance with you, as they are vendors which grant us the great privilege of being on this forum...

Aquattro

12-19-2015, 03:49 PM

And yeah, yeah, I know that is not a popular stance with you, as they are vendors which grant us the great privilege of being on this forum...

Oh c'mon, leave your politics out of this. I fully and whole-heartedly endorse buying from local hobbyists. It's the core of our hobby. 90% of my coral is locally sourced frags.

This is about our impact, as a hobbyist population globally. All the rock, all the salt, all the gear, the fish, the corals. etc. Not about deforestation, global warming, and all the other impacts that we do not directly control. This is about us keeping aquariums in our home and the direct impact that has when adding all of us up.
I'm not suggesting that there is a right or wrong answer, simply a topic for discussion and something to think about. Maybe change how we consume things after considering the impact.

Reefer Rob

12-19-2015, 05:16 PM

Pretty much everything we do has a negative impact on the environment. When I ride my bike to work instead of drive, I run over slugs, insects, the odd small furry creature, and I give nothing back. At best I impact the environment less.

I would say yes we do have a positive effect captive reef keeping. The biggest threat the the reef in the wild is not global warming, but the people who live near the reef. Coral farming by the local inhabitants, who likely have a subsistence lifestyle, gives them a reason to value the reefs. They now have an economic incentive to preserve the local environment, as well as an (relative) affluence they would not have previously had.

The main downside with our tanks of is course our energy guzzling contribution to global warming. If it wasn't for this my tank would be much, much bigger! Oh, and I'd go back to metal halides.

Aquattro

12-19-2015, 05:28 PM

I would say yes we do have a positive effect captive reef keeping. The biggest threat the the reef in the wild is not global warming, but the people who live near the reef. Coral farming by the local inhabitants, who likely have a subsistence lifestyle, gives them a reason to value the reefs. They now have an economic incentive to preserve the local environment, as well as an (relative) affluence they would not have previously had.

Fair point. I can see that promoting better care of reefs.

Geo

12-19-2015, 05:44 PM

Is it possible to set up a reef and stock it with only captive bred fish and cultured corals today?

What about clean up crew, are they wild?

Reefer Rob

12-19-2015, 05:47 PM

Is it possible to set up a reef and stock it with only captive bred fish and cultured corals today?

What about clean up crew, are they wild?

Absolutely! Captive bread fish are little harder, but many of us have tanks that are 100% captive bread corals.

Myka

12-19-2015, 06:05 PM

When I see things like this, I think our efforts and money need to be spent focusing on awareness (shark fins aren't going to make you "perform" better guys) and laws in poverty-stricken or naive cultures.

Shark fins drying on a roof top in Hong Kong:
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/pb-130102-shark-da-01.photoblog900.jpg

Same building:
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/130104083531-hong-kong-roof-shark-fins-horizontal-large-gallery.jpg

Myka

12-19-2015, 06:11 PM

Absolutely! Captive bread fish are little harder, but many of us have tanks that are 100% captive bread corals.

Yes, it's so cool when people have 100% cultured corals! LPS tanks are usually the worst for wild corals, but softy and SPS tanks are often full of maricultured and hobbyist-cultured corals. It's a beautiful thing.

My tank has 3 wild Aussie Acros and 1 wild Zoa colony, and part of me regrets buying these because there are so many cultured options. :o The rest of my corals are maricultured and hobbyist-cultured.

Reefer Rob

12-19-2015, 06:11 PM

When I see things like this, I think our efforts and money need to be spent focusing on awareness (shark fins aren't going to make you "perform" better guys) and laws in poverty-stricken or naive cultures.

Shark fins drying on a roof top in Hong Kong:

Yup, the darker side of human nature. A total lack of respect for the other creatures we share this planet with! :cry:

somafish

12-19-2015, 06:37 PM

"I would say yes we do have a positive effect captive reef keeping. The biggest threat the the reef in the wild is not global warming, but the people who live near the reef."

I don't believe this statement. global warming has destroyed more reef in 5 years then the damage done by the aquarium business the past 40, this year alone with warm waters and acidification entire systems have been lost.
At this point we are starting to become conservationists because if our carbon emissions are not strongly curbed in 10 years we won't have reefs, our tanks will become zoos to what use to be wild. I think we have to make a push for more local(frag swaps)l,sustainable(proper catching techniques) and maybe passing up on suppliers that are only out for the easy buck, but more then that we have to be more involved in how we control our carbon footprint.
All my coral in my tank was bought from someone who fragged it from their tank, all my fish bought in the last 2 years minus a purple tang,and a damsel are from breeders.My tank can't hold a candle to some sps Systems
On here but it is possible to enjoy this hobby with out taking from the ocean.

Bblinks

12-19-2015, 06:52 PM

I love sharkfin soup! And steak and porkchops and all sorts of poultry. You guys eat that stuff or is it another environmental impact...do yourself a favour and if you want to make a difference, please get out of the hobby and become a vegan. Other wise, respect other cultures and don't condemn something that you don't understand.

Reefer Rob

12-19-2015, 06:58 PM

Reefer Rob

12-19-2015, 07:05 PM

Other wise, respect other cultures and don't condemn something that you don't understand.

I'll never understand a culture that cuts the fins off a shark, then throws the rest back. All while it's still alive, what a way to die!

BTW, I'm against whaling as well. No compassion for chickens though, sorry.

Rice Reef

12-19-2015, 07:07 PM

I'll never understand a culture that cuts the fins off a shark, then throws the rest back. All while it's still alive, what a way to die!

BTW, I'm against whaling as well. No compassion for chickens though, sorry.

Maybe you understand this better...

http://sharkangels.org/issues-facing-sharks/uses-for-shark

Rice Reef

12-19-2015, 07:09 PM

Bblinks

12-19-2015, 07:15 PM

I'll never understand a culture that cuts the fins off a shark, then throws the rest back. All while it's still alive, what a way to die!

BTW, I'm against whaling as well. No compassion for chickens though, sorry.

No no, not always,they use it for other stuff too. Do some research and maybe you will find something interesting.

I got no compassion for chicken either so don't apologize, we are on the same page......I think.

somafish

12-19-2015, 07:22 PM

I'd be curios about what reading they're getting for temperature and PH when they claim that's what killed a reef.

I find corals to be very adaptable to temperature, and I've kept a healthy reef at a PH that never went above 7.9.

Likely it was so form of pollution that killed the reef, and global warming was used as a cover up.

http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/co2/story/What+is+Ocean+Acidification%3F
Just for basic info
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2015/10/08/3710257/ocean-coral-bleaching-catastrophe/
And this one for extra measure, I could find 1000 More articles but this one had colorful pictures for you.
The reality is our tank is a closed system and is almost nothing like how the ocean works, try this go start your car and put a air pump near by with air line tube to your tank see how long your tank keeps going. That is a drastic representation, but we have been pumping co2 into our oceans in large amounts for 80 years and moderate amount the 140 years before that not to mention other greenhouse gasses

Aquattro

12-19-2015, 07:22 PM

Guys, post is about reefing impact. Not shark fins. That can go in another thread, we can post as many threads as we like :)

Bblinks

12-19-2015, 07:25 PM

Guys, post is about reefing impact. Not shark fins. That can go in another thread, we can post as many threads as we like :)

Thank you brad!

Aquattro

12-19-2015, 07:32 PM

I see an overwhelming need to deflect in this thread. Instead of discussing, lots of "but look at that over there stuffs" . Ya, sharks and icebergs and deforestation and aliens all have impacts on reefs. THIS thread is about the reefing hobby and it's participants on reefs. Not global warming. Not raw sewage issues. Marine aquarium hobby impacts.

It's a good topic, no rights or wrongs, just throwing things out there. For me, the hobby is a bit selfish. I enjoy the tank as art in my house. Does that make me a bad person? Do I really care if someone thinks it does? Not really. But, I'm not going to pretend I don't have some impact, regardless of the size. And with all my reefing buddies around the globe, it's gotta count for something. Or maybe not? If the hobby never existed, would anything be different? Can't say it would or wouldn't. But thought it was a good topic for discussion instead of nothing.

somafish

12-19-2015, 07:43 PM

Sorry Brad, I'll be good.
I do think you can enjoy this hobby with next to no ill effect on reefs in the wild, you just won't have those hard to get fish and ultra rare corals

Aquattro

12-19-2015, 07:49 PM

I do think you can enjoy this hobby with next to no ill effect on reefs in the wild, you just won't have those hard to get fish and ultra rare corals

Sure, but what about all the rock we take? The mining for materials to make salt? The cheap electronics that end up in the landfill? All impacts of the hobby.

Yes, we now have man made rock, dry rock, etc, but that all comes from somewhere. Salt. How much salt gets used a year globally for the hobby? And really, does that even matter? No idea personally :) But just thinking about what we use, how much we use and where it all ends up!

Aquattro

12-19-2015, 08:02 PM

I've asked several times that this stay focused. Please stay on topic, tangents will be removed. There are lots of good arguments about lots of things, please start your own thread to discuss.

somafish

12-19-2015, 08:05 PM

Rock I can't deny (I also don't know if it comes directly from live reefs or dead ones) I'm pretty good with electronics, at this point I only use leds and I still have a 10 year old Quiet One pump working lol, and haven't done a true water change in a year. But we will always have an impact on nature as long as we take from it and don't return anything, and that's why I think it got so far off topic is because this isn't a simple yes no question. Forget the electronics going to the dump, think about the emissions going into making that quiet one pump, the emissions into transporting that pump, the electricity powering that pump (coal power where I come from)the dump is the simple part of the equation...... oh and dumps are huge emitters of green house gasses.

Aquattro

12-19-2015, 08:14 PM

Ya, and that's the thing, This isn't a question looking for a yes or no. It's just a thought process. We all do what we do, for various reasons we do it. But do we ever consider how we impact what we love, doing what we love?
Rock. I think they use it to build roads. Thousands of tons of it. So does our hobby then have any appreciable impact?? Dunno. Likely not. ORr does it? So many factors to consider, so many degrees of separation and different ripple effects.

All I'm doing is giving it more thought today than I did last week. Will that change anything I do? Dunno..

Reefer Rob

12-19-2015, 08:19 PM

Sure, but what about all the rock we take? The mining for materials to make salt? The cheap electronics that end up in the landfill? All impacts of the hobby.

Yes, we now have man made rock, dry rock, etc, but that all comes from somewhere. Salt. How much salt gets used a year globally for the hobby? And really, does that even matter? No idea personally :) But just thinking about what we use, how much we use and where it all ends up!

Everything we do has an environmental impact. The question you should ask is whether reef keeping is contributing to something that may causing irreparable damage to the earth (thus the discussion on global warming would be valid :razz: ) As long as the collection of materials and animals is done in a sustainable manner I don't really have a problem with it.

The reason I downsized my tank, and thought seriously about getting out of the hobby (I almost succeeded) was because the energy consumption (carbon footprint) of my aquarium probably equaled the combined usage of every other aspect of my life.

Aquattro

12-19-2015, 08:24 PM

Everything we do has an environmental impact. The question you should ask is whether reef keeping is contributing to something that may causing irreparable damage to the earth (thus the discussion on global warming would be valid :razz: ) As long as the collection of materials and animals is done in a sustainable manner I don't really have a problem with it.

The reason I downsized my tank, and thought seriously about getting out of the hobby (I almost succeeded) was because the energy consumption (carbon footprint) of my aquarium probably equaled the combined usage of every other aspect of my life.

Ok, but I'm guessing rock harvesting is not sustainable. How long to have new rock self create? Really long time, I think. Fish, coral, yes, I think that can be managed sustainably. Other stuff, no clue really.
But I guess that is my question, are we causing irreversible harm?

Also, pretty sure my Jeep has a bigger carbon footprint than my tank :)

somafish

12-19-2015, 08:38 PM

I guess that's all you can do is be thoughtful in your decisions. Humans will always be detrimental to their environmentsl, but as a personal consumer I try to do it in the most efficient way.

In the grand scheme of things I don't think my grandkids will blame me and my fish tank for destroying the oceans, so I don't think it's a huge impact and the more we push for sustainable caught fish/corals or even better bred fish/corals, properly mined rock, more power efficient equipment the less impact we will have. Also frag swaps and buying locally have got to be more utilized, why don't we have a Canadian MACNA!!!

rsisvixen

12-19-2015, 08:55 PM

On the rock topic, I think that there is less and less of the 'live rock" taken out of the wild so to speak. We now have tons of other options available, aquacultured rock, man made rock etc. As hobbyists become more aware and educated wild rock will probably become a thing of the past in the hobby.
I myself do not have wild live rock in my tank.

My biggest pet peeve of the industry as a whole is the insistence of lfs's to keep getting in known hard to keep alive fish, moorish idols, orange spotted file fish etc. I don't mind if an expert reefer has done their research and wants to special order something, but getting in 10 or more in a shipment just to sell something "rare" is not right.

Aquattro

12-19-2015, 09:03 PM

I still have all real rock in my tank :)

Keep in mind, often the LFS simply gets what is sent. I've seen stuff come in where the LFS is p'ed because it won't live. They order 50 fish, 30 are available on day of shipping, the supplier fills the rest of the box with whatever they have on hand.

jorjef

12-19-2015, 09:24 PM

So, do we help, or do we hinder? How so?

Back to the original question..

Do we help.?

I can't think of one possible reason how anyone in this hobby can begin to say 'they help'. Short of returning all the inhabitants of their tank back to a SUITABLE location or origin with the remote chance it will survive and reproduce Which its self is a ridiculous scenario ......You... Don't .... Help.

Do we hinder..

Ummm ya we do. There is zero benefit to reefs to remove any inhabitants for the hobby trade. ...None, zippo, nada.

In my eyes it is black and white... I'm not a granola eat'n tree hug' earth muffin. I do this for my own pleasure end of story.... For people who have taken steps to populate their tanks with tank raised this, fragged that, farmed blah balh blah, good for you.. But believe me any neub that is inspired by your tank and decides to take the plunge into this hobby won't have the relationships built up to be able to do the same.... End result off to the LFS they go....

Aquattro

12-19-2015, 09:45 PM

Back to the original question..

Do we help.?

I can't think of one possible reason how anyone in this hobby can begin to say 'they help'. Short of returning all the inhabitants of their tank back to a SUITABLE location or origin with the remote chance it will survive and reproduce Which its self is a ridiculous scenario ......You... Don't .... Help.

Do we hinder..

Ummm ya we do. There is zero benefit to reefs to remove any inhabitants for the hobby trade. ...None, zippo, nada.

In my eyes it is black and white... I'm not a granola eat'n tree hug' earth muffin. I do this for my own pleasure end of story.... For people who have taken steps to populate their tanks with tank raised this, fragged that, farmed blah balh blah, good for you.. But believe me any neub that is inspired by your tank and decides to take the plunge into this hobby won't have the relationships built up to be able to do the same.... End result off to the LFS they go....

And I can't really come to any different conclusion.

Myka

12-19-2015, 10:37 PM

There is zero benefit to reefs to remove any inhabitants for the hobby trade. ...None, zippo, nada.

And I can't really come to any different conclusion.

Without the hobby there probably wouldn't be so many scientists working on captive breeding projects because they'd be so far behind in husbandry knowledge and equipment.

That's all I got.

Aquattro

12-19-2015, 10:38 PM

Without the hobby there probably wouldn't be so many scientists working on captive breeding projects because they'd be so far behind in husbandry knowledge and equipment.

That's all I got.

Without the hobby demand, there would be no need for captive breeding..

Myka

12-19-2015, 10:46 PM

Without the hobby demand, there would be no need for captive breeding..

Um, no. They are researching captive breeding for the end result of being able to re-establish wild populations. Collection for aquariums isn't nearly the only reason they would want to captive breed fish. I'm not just talking about aquarium fish.

Aquattro

12-19-2015, 10:50 PM

Where did the wild populations go? Oh, right :)

Reef Pilot

12-19-2015, 10:55 PM

In my eyes it is black and white...

And I can't really come to any different conclusion.

Well, that explains it... Kind of hard to explain colours to people that only see black and white...

Dearth

12-19-2015, 11:38 PM

Actually a few of us local reefers were talking about harvesting methods used to get live rock. One of the guys used to live in Indonesia and the locals where he lived at the time would walk out into the ocean grab, drag and lift the rocks then bring them to shore and use sledge hammers, drills, jack hammers and even explosives to break up big chunks of rock to sell to buyers as for them it was and still is an income for them. This alone is a huge negative impact on the ocean.

They do destroy huge chunks of the ocean floor to supply demand however practises are changing and many areas he said are going to sustainable methods and more and now more Salt water hobbyists are using existing rock from professional and home aquariums making the rocks harvested from the ocean less and less viable.

Also making natural rocks less viable even more is the creation of rocks tailored to your needs it is very expensive but more and more people are liking the idea of tailor made rocks over natural that is a positive impact on the ocean for sure

rsisvixen

12-20-2015, 12:11 AM

I think we actually help the reef more than hinder.

Yes we take stuff out so most people would see that as a negative, but if it wasn't for hobbyists the reefs would be even worse off.

Without us, there wouldn't be as much research done or people that care about what happens in the reefs, there would be no attempt to understand captive breeding, propagation and reef rehabilitation.
There are now wild reef preserves to try and conserve habitat, would anyone ever have even cared if this hobby didn't exist? Its under the ocean, out of sight out of mind as the saying goes.
How many marine biologists/scientists would not be here today if there had been no saltwater hobby?

jorjef

12-20-2015, 12:36 AM

Hold on for a second...drops mic, walking away putting his rose coloured glasses on .... Oh ya that's better.

chromakey

12-20-2015, 06:34 PM

Good Day:

I haven't thoroughly weighed out the evidence whether we have a negative effect of the reef environment but I believe we affect the environment.

I believe the biggest effects to the reef environment are overfishing, pollution (including agricultural runoff) and climate change.

For a look at the change of the ocean environment and tropical reefs the Netflix documentary "Mission Blue" documents the change of several reefs over 40 years.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2004304/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

Michael

Aquattro

12-20-2015, 07:00 PM

Baker

12-21-2015, 08:20 PM

Ya, and that's the thing, This isn't a question looking for a yes or no. It's just a thought process.

I strongly disagree. It is very cut and dry. We are having discussion because we try to justify our hobby and our burden on the environment. It's not good what ever way you slice it.

Aquattro

12-21-2015, 08:43 PM

I strongly disagree. It is very cut and dry. We are having discussion because we try to justify our hobby and our burden on the environment. It's not good what ever way you slice it.

Ok, I stated it wrong. Yes, I believe there is a cut and dry answer. We take, we give nothing back. But I don't think we're going to get consensus on that among hobbyists, for varying reasons :)

Sixpack

12-21-2015, 09:05 PM

Who wouldn't want cheaper fish and corals and so becaus we consumers demand that stores import more in order to make up that loss margins therefore taking more and more livestock out of the oceans because we have devalued their lives.

kien

12-21-2015, 09:19 PM

Hey, I just want to add to this discussion, Merry Christmas everyone ! *runs and hides*

WarDog

12-21-2015, 09:30 PM

Hey, I just want to add to this discussion, Merry Christmas everyone ! *runs and hides*

May the Force be with you!

Aquattro

12-21-2015, 09:50 PM

May the Force be with you!

I don't think he's into Star Trek..

Reefer Rob

12-21-2015, 10:11 PM

Every animal "takes" something. I think you need to get over this (or not, it's up to you). How many of us would have a job if someone didn't need to "take" something.

People who "took" something from the Mariculture industry provided jobs to an impoverished area and added value to the reefs. Try a few Google searches to see whats going on.

Same goes for rock, sand or whatever... as long as it is done in an environmentally sustainable way. There's no way for me to know if this is the case, since I buy most things through several middle men, but again adding value to the reefs will encourage local governments to make good conservation decisions.

Aquattro

12-21-2015, 10:50 PM

Every animal "takes" something. I think you need to get over this (or not, it's up to you). How many of us would have a job if someone didn't need to "take" something.

Hope that isn't directed at me! I take, I know that. I'm ok with it :)

madkeenreefer

12-22-2015, 12:04 AM

When/if all the reefs are gone and the oceans are in collaps due to changing enviromental conditions ect, the advanced hobbiests , the Public Aquariums of the world will be the only chance we have to perhaps rebuild. (Before this point all coral imports will long be stopped one would imagine and the basic hobbiest like me will be few and far)
Maybee only in this future could the advances/actions of the hobby today be seen as benificial.. but today surly not.

Reefer Rob

12-22-2015, 02:55 AM

Saving the worlds coral reefs from extinction by having an aquarium in your living room might be setting the bar a bit high :x-mas:

Aquattro

12-22-2015, 03:24 AM

Saving the worlds coral reefs from extinction by having an aquarium in your living room might be setting the bar a bit high :x-mas:

I didn't want to say that. But ya. Not going to happen :)

madkeenreefer

12-22-2015, 03:33 PM

Saving the worlds coral reefs from extinction by having an aquarium in your living room might be setting the bar a bit high :x-mas:
Not sure if this was a reply to my post ?
I doubt that any home based reef will make a difference short or long term hence the remark towards public aquariums ��

I would say we hinder to be clear ��

Aquattro

12-22-2015, 03:45 PM

Not sure if this was a reply to my post ?
I doubt that any home based reef will make a difference short or long term hence the remark towards public aquariums 😉

Still not going to happen. A, the volume isn't there. B, logistically not workable. C, the reefs all died due to other environmental issues, so putting our captive corals back in the ocean will just kill them.

saltcreep

12-22-2015, 03:48 PM

People who "took" something from the Mariculture industry provided jobs to an impoverished area and added value to the reefs. Try a few Google searches to see whats going on.

Same goes for rock, sand or whatever... as long as it is done in an environmentally sustainable way. There's no way for me to know if this is the case, since I buy most things through several middle men, but again adding value to the reefs will encourage local governments to make good conservation decisions.

This industry is a looooong way from being sustainable. Greed rules the day. If you can pull it off the reef to make a dollar today, who cares about tomorrow. That's the thought process of many of the exporting nations.

Yes, when compared to other factors, the impact of the hobby is relatively small. Unfortunately, it's the other factors that will have the ultimate say in the future of it. Bottom line is that if you remove animals from an ecosystem will have an impact. Period.

George

12-22-2015, 06:35 PM

A lot has been said about removing animals from the reef can impact the reef. I agree with that.
More overall, the stuff that we are dumping can also impact the environment. A lot of people are using medicine to treat their animals and just dump the waste water directly into the sewage or worst directly to storm drain without neutralizing the water first. That can impact the environment.
Also the waste water from our water change can impact the environment. It may have some stuff (live or not) that may not be native to our local environment. Dumping them into sewage and/or storm drain may introduce them to our local environment.

jorjef

12-22-2015, 07:24 PM