Remineralization Cartridges: Thoughts?

[TripleT]

New to the forum here and was wondering if a person has an acidic water source that using one of these after the DI is viable?

Articles claim that the remineralization cartridge will bring Ph to around the 8.2 - 8.3 level. Also, if anyone uses one of these cartridges, what is the life span of it? ie:gallons of H2O before replacement.

Which brand/manufacturer would be best for our hobby? :question:

Thanks

[rayjay]

IMO, absolutely no need for it as everything needed is already in the salt mix.

[TripleT]

So, if you have acidic water, the salt mix would bring Ph into the correct range?

I hope that it is not by "Trial and Error" that a salt mix and water ratio is determined. This would seem rather futile. Unless you know what your water Ph is and what the alkalinity of your brand of salt will correct.

Am I missing something?

Cheers!

[Aquattro]

Adding the correct amount of salt into your fresh water will give you a pH in the correct range. Unless your tap water is pulling from beneath a volcano or some other weird source :)

[rayjay]

Measurement of pH of RO/DI water will not give you a factual result because the pH reading is going to be dependent on salts in the water which are non existent if your unit is working properly.
All salt mixes have buffers in them that will give you the proper pH assuming all other factors are correct.

[Aquattro]

Measurement of pH of RO/DI water will not give you a factual result because the pH reading is going to be dependent on salts in the water

No. pH measures the concentration of H+ ions in solution, not salts. RO, DI or other water can all be measured with a meter calibrated for the expected range. RO should be theoretically 7.0 and will be dependent on dissolved gases (O2, CO2) contributing ions to the mix.

TDS will measure salts and other dissolved solids in solution.

[rayjay]

Without any buffering salts in the water you won't get a proper pH reading.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-05/rhf/index.php#8

[Aquattro]

Without any buffering salts in the water you won't get a proper pH reading.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-05/rhf/index.php#8

Yes, you would. Pure water has a pH and is measurable. Acids are measurable. alkalis are measurable. All accurately, regardless of salts or lack of.

Anyway, not going to argue about it, the question wasn't about measuring pH. It's about does he need to buy a thingy? No, he does not.

[rayjay]

From the article, "The pH of highly purified water is not accurately measured by test kits, or by pH meters."
That doesn't mean there is no pH value, just that we have no method of measuring it and knowing the true value. Whatever reading you get with any of our methods of testing pH, it may or it may not accurately reflect the true value.
What method do you use that other hobbyists have access to that will definitely give a true reading?

[WarDog]

Rayjay, you are arguing with a guy who has a University degree In Water Quality Technology. Pretty sure he is the authority here.

[Aquattro]

Rayjay, you are arguing with a guy who has a University degree In Water Quality Technology. Pretty sure he is the authority here.

lol, you f'er. Let's say instead of authority, I know a lot about measuring water? :)
But there's no point arguing, doesn't matter in the context of the OP's question.

If I were inclined to read the article, I might offer an interpretation of what it's really saying, but I'm not inclined at the moment. I'm hungry.

[WarDog]

Food defuses everything!

[sphelps]

TripleT, I see you live in Calgary, why do you have acidic water? Calgary water is very hard with a pH of of over 8. At any rate as stated once mixed with salt you'll have everything you need in the water, even if you end up with a lower pH it won't matter. People who run Ca reactors can testify running a slightly lower pH won't do any harm.

[rayjay]

Rayjay, you are arguing with a guy who has a University degree In Water Quality Technology. Pretty sure he is the authority here.
No, he is arguing against what Randy Holmes-Farley has written in that article.
Unless he can produce something that makes me believe his qualifications are better than Randy's, I stick with Randy.

[Aquattro]

Tell ya what. You calibrate your Apex with 4 and 7 solution, make up some RO water, shake it a bit to off gas any CO2 and measure the pH. Tell me what you get. :)

[rayjay]

I don't even know what an apex is.
As for pH, I've not checked pH of any of my tanks or any of my other breeding waters in probably 20 yrs.
I find it odd though that you don't read the article by Randy so that you CAN reply to what he states.
You still haven't produced anything I believe in so we will have to agree to disagree.
We've both stated our points and readers will believe one or the other, regardless of what we are posting.

[Aquattro]

I'll read it when I have time, and offer my interpretation. Apex is this weird little device everyone but you seems to have, it controls aquariums and has a pH probe.
But here's the basics. You stated, from your interpretation, that pH measures salts. It does not. It measures the molar concentration of H ions in a solution. Pure water has a theoretical balance of H and OH ions, giving a pH value of 7. Given the experiment above, you will find that your pH meter of choice will give you very very close to that value when you measure it. Within the error scale of the device you're using. I've used high end lab equipment to perform this test, and received an accurate measure of 7.0.
Now Randy is a smart guy, way smarter than me on my good days. So I'm sure there is some truth to whatever he's saying, and I will read it, honest, but I don't think he's saying what you think he's saying. If I get bored, I'll even go talk to him about it :)
You do further state "within hobbyist's capabilities", so slightly moving the goal posts, so I can't address both items. My initial statement that pH measures salts being wrong stills stands.

So here's the take-away. For hobbyist purposes, you almost never have to worry about pH. The salt mix takes care of putting it where it needs to be. If you have a pH meter and just want to test stuff, whether your tank, tap water, or glass of orange juice, your meter, being a cheaper hobbyist unit, will still give very accurate results for your purposes. SW is about 8. Tap water will be about 6.7 - 7.2. Orange juice is high 5's, as I recall.
In the end it doesn't matter, which is why I'm not terribly concerned with reading more stuff. But I will try to fit it in :)

[Aquattro]

Ok, light reading, we want to address this statement, I presume -

"2. The pH of highly purified water is not accurately measured by test kits, or by pH meters. There are several different reasons for this, including the fact that highly purified water has very little buffering capacity, so its pH is easily changed. Even the acidity or basicity of a pH test kit’s indicator dye is enough to alter pure water’s measured pH. As for pH meters, the probes themselves do not function well in the very low ionic strength of pure freshwater, and trace impurities on them can swing the pH around quite a bit. "

What Randy is saying here is that measuring the H concentration is difficult, not because salts (buffers) are there or not, but due to lack of buffering capacity within highly pure water. With this lack of buffering, the solution is highly variable in pH due to it's environment. CO2 contributes carbonic acid to the solution altering it's pH (lowering it). Water with more buffering capacity is more resistant to these environmental changes. Which is why in my example above I say to off gas CO2 before measuring. This will give an accurate enough measure of the sample.
What Randy is NOT saying here is that pH measures salts. Also keep in mind that moving from pH of 6.9 to 6.7 is a big number mathematically, hence "quite a bit" . But for our purposes, it's minimal.

I think you've just read more into this than you needed to, and your initial claim re: measuring salts in inaccurate. pH is Latin for "weight of Hydrogen" and as described, measures Hydrogen.

[rayjay]

No, I didn't state that pH measures salts, I stated that the pH reading was dependent on the salts being present. As the RO/DI process removes the salts, without the salts there is no buffering to assist a reading. I didn't state this last part but thought it only necessary to state the salts were needed to get the accurate reading.
The LACK of buffering capacity is BECAUSE the salts are no longer there in the treated water.
I never said that Randy was saying pH measures salts either.
I also know about the gassing of CO2.
As for why I don't have pH measurement tools and other automated devices, I started the hobby many many years ago when these things were not available to us here in the hobby, and as I never found a need for it, I never bothered wasting my money on it as things worked out fine without.
I still have no need of these devices in any of my tanks even though I now only have seahorses.
At my age and in my condition I've had to drop all the reef tanks and stuck with my newer passion, being physically unable to keep up everything.
Please show me where I said that "measuring salts is inaccurate".
Possibly you misread what I actually said?

[Myka]

As i was reading this, Brad I'm glad you read the article and replied because I didn't want to type it oht on my phone. :lol:

pH is probably the most misinterpreted parameter in our tanks.

[Aquattro]

because the pH reading is going to be dependent on salts in the water...

This is what I'm going on, and yes, perhaps I misunderstood your intent. However, as stated, it's incorrect. pH is not dependent on salts, although it is affected by salts. This is the point I wanted to clarify.

I think we're possibly arguing the same thing, from different sides. Yes, pH is affected, indirectly, by various salts which are providing buffering. But, that does not mean you can't accurately test, it means the value is more unstable due to outside factors like temp, CO2, etc.
In the end, yes, you can measure, but the value may not be what you expect. That doesn't mean it's wrong. It simply means the solution has shifted due to external influence.
I also agree that this is pointless, as I think pH in this hobby is a useless measure of anything, and I haven't run a pH meter in more years than I can recall.

Does OP need a remineralization thingy? No, he doesn't :)

[TripleT]

Thanks Guys!

My head hurts after reading all those papers on RO water :lol:

I'm actually 50km north of Calgary, in Crossfield. I understand that our water source is from the Red Deer River. If that helps any one...

Good discusion, puts what I've read into perspective.

I put Calgary down, to stop questions as to where Crossfield is.:wink:

[Aquattro]

Like I said, unless your water is coming from beneath a volcano or some other weird source, you're fine :) Just add salt, roughly to manufacturer's specs, and pH will be good.