RO/di machine headache

[Craigdillman]

Hey guys just messing around changing my prefilters and trying to diagnose low production with my machine again had some questions ( I'm thinking my membrane needs to be replaced )

How much does your machine actually produce ?
How many drops a second do you get straight from your membrane before Di?
What's your waste water ratio?

It's a aquasafe Canada setup and have a booster pump on it now and have the upgraded BRS duel di resin containers, i believe it's a 100g a day membrane and I'm lucky to get like 10g now. I was behind in changing the prefilters so I attributed it to the pre filters clogged but Ive had problems with this thing before and am close to blowing it up

Right my pressure going to the membrane is 120psi and in getting approx 1 drip a second out of the membrane and the waste water is like free flowing (not a 4:1 ratio) but I got the flow restrictive it came with cranked as low as it can go
Also not getting my 85-96-% rejection rate

Is this the signs that my membrane is shot and would that slow my production to a halt or you think something else is at work

[Myka]

What type of flow restrictor does it have? I haven't seen one with an adjustment. Got a pic? I couldn't even find anything with Google.

Have you tried removing all the filters and run the system empty to check for clogged lines? Or you can remove each line one by one and blow through it. If you have new pre-filters and the lines aren't clogged then it has to be the membrane.

Fwiw, you shouldn't have more than 100 psi going into the system as the fittings and housings are only rated to 100 psi. It sounds like you don't need the booster pump at all. What is the psi without the booster?

I have a 150 gpd RO membrane in my system and I've tested it with and without a booster. With the booster I get 85 psi and without the booster I get 62 psi. I use a 75 gpd restrictor with it which slows down the waste water, and I get exactly 1:1.7 either way. I get 130 gpd product water with the booster and 110 gpd without the booster. So I've decided there's no point in my using the booster. The membrane is 5 years old and it's made quite a lot of water, plus I use the slower restrictor so it isn't flush as much as it should (I have a manual flush on it), so that's why it's not running at the full 150 gpd.

[hillegom]

Is that 120 psi before the prefilter, or like you said, just before the membrane?
Something is wrong with the membrane if you have 120psi just b4 the membrane but you are only getting 10 gal per day. Try back flushing the membrane.
What is the psi after the membrane? What is psi before membrane?
Possibly check your plumbing.
When I change my prefilter for the second time, I will change the carbon as well. The carbon wont clog as fast if your prefilter micron rating is smaller than the micron rating of the carbon.
The ro water to waste should be around 1:4
If your filters are all new and you have 120 psi, then you should get at least 100 gal/day from your system. After using for a while, the filters clog and u will get less

[hillegom]

adjustable flow restrictors:
http://www.aquariumwaterfilters.com/Adjustable-Flow-Restrictor-p.qc-frnvs.htm

[Craigdillman]

I think I'm going to chuck this thing out so done dealing with it

Unit is from Aquasafecanada.com

I changed the sediment filter and both carbon filters, I'm getting just under 120psi after those going into the Membrane, without the booster I have like 45ish
Sorry i dont have any other pressure readings after that cause the gauge is inline

I dont have a pic but here is the manual

http://www.aquasafecanada.com/maximus-ii-re-mineralization-installation-instructions/

Page 7 has the flow "restrictor"

[Craigdillman]

flushed the pre filters and they all flushed fine lots of flow


I have the pump and the BRS Duel DI resin so can anyone recommend a good straight RO machine so i can blow this puppy up? lol

[Myka]

adjustable flow restrictors:
http://www.aquariumwaterfilters.com/Adjustable-Flow-Restrictor-p.qc-frnvs.htm

Ooo fancy. So Craig, what's the lowest setting on the flow restrictor that you have?

[Myka]

flushed the pre filters and they all flushed fine lots of flow

Remove the RO membrane and try running it. You'll have you answer in 5 mins.

Edit: How old is the membrane anyway? If all you have to do is replace the membrane, that's a pretty easy fix. :)

[Craigdillman]

membrane is approaching 2 years probably give or take

[Myka]

What's tap TDS? What size tank are you using it for? Trying to get an idea of just how "used" the membrane is.

[Craigdillman]

i have the dial cranked as tight as it can go for the flow restrictor,

Tank is 150g total water and also there is pressurized drinking water container attached that we use for drinking so its probably pretty used

[Craigdillman]

tap TDS is 250

[Craigdillman]

Thanks for the help guys I'm going to tackle the rest of this tomorrow (with a bomb and get a real unit for once lol )

:)

Cheers

[Myka]

Ok, good luck.

If you end up buying a new unit, Vertex makes an RO only unit (for a good price too!) that you could hook up to your DI cartridges. It comes with filters and a membrane.

[Craigdillman]

Ok thanks Yea was looking at the vertex ones or one from Bulk reef supply they do a RO only one as well

[Myka]

Ok thanks Yea was looking at the vertex ones or one from Bulk reef supply they do a RO only one as well

Ya but then you pay shipping and exchange which is like 35% right now if you pay with a credit card. Buy Canadian! :thumb:

[hillegom]

Check your plumbing, paying attention to where the flow restricter and the output RO is coming form
Maybe the flow restrictor is toast. Take it offline and blow through it when it is dialed closed
Found a diagram: Not affiliated to me or anyone I know, just reference
http://www.watergeneral.com/support/pdf/pump%20instruction2.pdf

[mike31154]

Might be an idea to have a look at the drinking water pressure tank part of your system to make sure that's not causing you all the grief. Perhaps bypass it if you can & see what happens. I don't have anything like that on my system, so don't know anything about how they plumb in, might be a red herring. It does add complexity though & more things to go awry. Personally for drinking water, I simply bypass the DI stage when I do a water production run & deliver the 1st 6 gallons of water to a standard water cooler jug. This has a side benefit of ensuring that when I do open the valve to the DI stage, I know the RO from the membrane is as low as it will get. Short production runs are hard on a RODI system & filling the drinking water pressure tank could be considered a short production run. It will take a few minutes for the RO output TDS to drop to optimum based on your tap TDS.

[mike31154]

Just had a quick look at the system via the link you provided.

http://www.aquasafecanada.com/maximus-ii-re-mineralization-installation-instructions/

OMG, if that's your system it's way complicated, what with the pressure tank & "remineralization" stage! So many things that can go south in something that complex. I assume you have one or multiple valves that allow you to bypass the pressure tank when you're making DI water for your fish tank? Page 12 of the instructions you linked to mention that a change in the factory set 7 psi of the pressure tank air bladder can cause the Auto Shut Off Valve (ASV) to malfunction. Something else to look at. Again, personally, quite a while back I completely removed the ASV from my system. Once I started thinking about how the system worked and the fact that I don't use a pressure tank nor a float valve in my water reservoir, the ASV was obviously redundant, so the choice to take it out was a no brainer. Besides, when my system was new & I tried to use a float valve, the waste water never did shut off completely, couldn't get the ASV to function as advertised no how. Now that it's gone, I also get better pressure at the membrane. Of course you need the ASV in there as long as the pressure tank is there as well. Anyhow, still might be an idea to troubleshoot your system by completely isolating the pressure tank circuit & without the ASV if that's not too much of a hassle.

[mike31154]

i have the dial cranked as tight as it can go for the flow restrictor,

Tank is 150g total water and also there is pressurized drinking water container attached that we use for drinking so its probably pretty used

How long have you had the dial on the flow restrictor cranked all the way in? I'm assuming that there is still some water coming through the waste line?

[The Guy]

I use the Aquasafe system with the added drinking water stage and have never had an issue, my incoming water is 55 PSI as we are on a well system. Like anything you have to change your prefilters and the green resin sand stuff ( not sure of the proper name) at least once a year.
I'm into year 3 and have not replaced the RO membrane yet and should probably change it out soon.

[Craigdillman]

Going to mess with it tonight after work, thanks for the help and ideas

I will try to take the tank out of the equation see if that changes anything

Here's a pic
http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s539/youngmedic1/Reef%20tank/0146075B-CD26-4C94-8D17-1C3C0545E5DD_zpse4havltx.jpg (http://s1304.photobucket.com/user/youngmedic1/media/Reef%20tank/0146075B-CD26-4C94-8D17-1C3C0545E5DD_zpse4havltx.jpg.html)

Flow goes

Prefilters > membrane > di resin > T off one way goes tank other way to remineralied filter for drinking , there is another T between tank line .

So if you open drinking water line water will flow from tank or di resin through extra reminerazed filter to your glass , if you want RODI water for tank you use T off like water doesn't pass threw that filter water comes from storage or from di resin

[Craigdillman]

I use the Aquasafe system with the added drinking water stage and have never had an issue, my incoming water is 55 PSI as we are on a well system. Like anything you have to change your prefilters and the green resin sand stuff ( not sure of the proper name) at least once a year.
I'm into year 3 and have not replaced the RO membrane yet and should probably change it out soon.



How much production do you have a day ?

What's your waste water line look like for flow/ratio ?

[Craigdillman]

How long have you had the dial on the flow restrictor cranked all the way in? I'm assuming that there is still some water coming through the waste line?

Yea like its pouring out still and the water coming from the membrane is dripping like one drip per second waste is pouring out

[mike31154]

Yeah, that ain't right. Should definitely be more than a drip coming from the product line. I have a fixed 75 gpd restrictor built into a manual flush valve assembly, no adjustment but is simple & works fine.

You say the water is pouring out the waste line, perhaps it's your adjustable restrictor that's the problem, could be as simple as that. Try plugging the waste line completely to see what happens. If you have a JG end plug, just use that, but don't run it too long that way, just long enough to see if you get more than a drip from the product line. Depending on the outcome of that scenario, logic would dictate that either your adjustable restrictor is toast, the membrane is toast, or water pressure is being bled off/lost somewhere upstream of the membrane.

[Craigdillman]

Ok yea I've tested the water coming from the membrane and its no where near the TDS reduction my input is like 250 and out put from the membrane is 180 so the membrane isn't working properly

Is the membrane shot ? Would this cause my waste water line to be pouring out ? Or is that part of the system not working and causing the membrane to not function ?

[Craigdillman]

Because if its just the membrane i can order a new or if not Im about ready to throw it out and just buy one of the vertex Ro systems

[mike31154]

Looking at the Aqua-safe instructions you linked to again & I see it has what's called the "exclusive E-Z Flush Flow Restrictor". Is that what you have on yours or did you retrofit your current adjustable flow restrictor? Where is it in the photo you posted, or do you have a better close up of the thing? If it's a combination flush valve/flow restrictor, maybe there are 2 adjustment mechanisms on it, on for tweaking the flow & another for flushing? Can't tell by your photo or the diagram in the Aqua-safe instructions. If there is indeed a flush mechanism your issue may be a simple as ensuring it's in the "non" flush position?

[mike31154]

Because if its just the membrane i can order a new or if not Im about ready to throw it out and just buy one of the vertex Ro systems

The price of a membrane is definitely worth the effort rather than tossing a system that should be repairable. Aside from the complexity with the drinking water circuit, about the only other issue I have with the Aqua-safe unit in your photo is the housings for the sediment filter(s). I like clear ones so I can see when they are getting gummed up, rather than changing them on a calendar based schedule.

There's not a big difference between most RO systems. Other than a variety of bells & whistles, the basic parts are generic components, Vertex included.

[Craigdillman]

That part is stock never changed it at all its like the one in the picture

Seems to only have one adjustment on it Hrm

[duncangweller]

This might seem stupid, but I did this before, but.....

Check the order of your filters. I put the filters in the wrong containers (I put the 1micron before the 5micron) and I couldn't get any higher than 20psi.

I was fed up so bought a new set of filters even though the ones were quite new at the time and I then realised that they were in the wrong order.

My output instantly increased from 20psi to over 50psi.

Silly me!

[Craigdillman]

Yea your right, I'm being irrational lol burnnnnn it . I'll be semi mad when I order a new membrane and it fixes the problem and I coulda done bag months ago

[Craigdillman]

Just double checked the pre filters they are in the right order


So if the membrane is shot would that cause there to be more waste water ?

[Bobothemonk]

I run aquasafe and im happy with it.

If the membrane is done it will not allow as much water thru it. Also the part of the membrane allowing flow will damage allowing stuff thru. Less flow + more TDS = membrane shot.

You know pre filters are good, take out membrane and run system to check that the resin flow is good. If flow still sucks then put membrane back in and disconnect resin and run. Compare the flow and determine which (maybe both) you need to replace. Membrane being messed might have let stuff into the resin and that may also need to be replaced.

If you have a couple of buckets run the waste into a bucket and the good into another bucket to measure your waste to good water ratio. Take some guess work out of the picture.

But from sounds of it you simply need new membrane and if your using for everyday drinking water you have alot of use there. Maybe your water isnt as good added with high use means you need to stick to new membranes once a year to keep system running at peak performance.

[Gools]

Didn't get a chance to read all the posts, and maybe it was already mentioned but isn't that picture of a flow restrictor just a flow restrictor? Meaning just mentioned to adjust water flow instead of a proper flow restrictor that has a special number to coinside with you membrane? They only cost a buck or 2,. Worth a try! My 2 cents

[Craigdillman]

I run aquasafe and im happy with it.

If the membrane is done it will not allow as much water thru it. Also the part of the membrane allowing flow will damage allowing stuff thru. Less flow + more TDS = membrane shot.

You know pre filters are good, take out membrane and run system to check that the resin flow is good. If flow still sucks then put membrane back in and disconnect resin and run. Compare the flow and determine which (maybe both) you need to replace. Membrane being messed might have let stuff into the resin and that may also need to be replaced.

If you have a couple of buckets run the waste into a bucket and the good into another bucket to measure your waste to good water ratio. Take some guess work out of the picture.

But from sounds of it you simply need new membrane and if your using for everyday drinking water you have alot of use there. Maybe your water isnt as good added with high use means you need to stick to new membranes once a year to keep system running at peak performance.


Ok gonna pull the membrane today and run it, the di resin is bran new replaced it with the pre filters few days ago

I think you guys are bang thanks on I'm ordering a new membrane pretty sure that's the problem

[intarsiabox]

I would buy the correct flow restrictor for the membrane you are getting while placing the order. I had an adjustable one from Aquasafe and it was garbage. Needed constant adjustment to work properly.

[Craigdillman]

I was going to buy the 100GPD membrane from aquasafe again or should I buy a different one and a new flow restrictor

[Craigdillman]

Will any membrane fit? Should be a standard housing right? Like if I get a spectapure membrane and new flow restrictor

[intarsiabox]

Yes they are usually the same size. The DOW Filmtec membranes are supposed to be one of the best. Big Reef Depot actually has them on sale right now.

[Craigdillman]

Nice Good find

[Craigdillman]

ordered a new membrane and new flow restrictor thanks everyone for the help idk why i didn't do this way back I'm sure my membrane was shot like a year ago and i was just settling for sub par production and burning through Di resin

[Myka]

Did you ever pull your current membrane out and run it sans membrane?

[mark]

got my last membrane from Reefsupplies (also see they have again on sale).

I also run a aquasafe and been pretty much trouble free (faulty check valve had me confused for a bit). Considering membranes, filters and other parts are interchangeable doesn't seem to make much sense to toss the whole thing for another make.

Have you read through or contacted aquasafe support?

[Craigdillman]

WOOOOOOOO I am going to CRY right now

Took out the old membrane and the amount of carbon particles after the membrane was crazy i have no idea why i never looked in here but i found the problem and after changing the membrane and the flow restrictor this puppy is running like new '
http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s539/youngmedic1/IMG_7010_zpsiakcxuhz.jpg (http://s1304.photobucket.com/user/youngmedic1/media/IMG_7010_zpsiakcxuhz.jpg.html)

http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s539/youngmedic1/IMG_7011_zpstcvxqh56.jpg (http://s1304.photobucket.com/user/youngmedic1/media/IMG_7011_zpstcvxqh56.jpg.html)

Thanks again for all the help and not letting me Burn the unit lol i guess we must use more water than i thought and burned the membrane out and from now on ill spend the money and get the good pre filters not the cheapie ones


:biggrin::biggrin:

Im gonna make a rum and make sure i dont flood my basement