Apex/ electrical/GFI messed up.Help.

[reefwithareefer]

So yesterday, my MH light would be on then go off 10 mins later. Everytime I turned it on, it would go off again. So it was either bulb or Ballast in my mind. Switched bulb and it still goes off.
Replace ballast and it seems to be fine

I get home today and the south (Mhsouth-1) is off.
Look at fusion and shows it off. Odd, why would it be off?
Try turning it on via fusion and Ipad and nothing. Try fusion and PC, still nothing.
Go down to sump room and notice other things off. Check GFI and it has been "triggered"
Reset GFI and all go back on but MHsouth-1
I look at the power consumption etc on the bar graph and see the "NPlugs" and SPlugs" powerbar graphs showing weird stuff. The splugs says it shot up to 75 amps if I am reading it correctly...then it shows it going down to nothing....I assume this is why the GFI broke, but how can it go from 0 to 75 amps numerous times? The GFI does not reset itself...

The Nplugs, show the dosers going on and off, but it usually goes from 0 to .8 amps. Now it shows constant power consumption of .8? and the more , when the dosers go on/off

Am I reading it wrong?

The odd thing is that the Splugs bar runs off a 15 amp breaker and the Nplugs and Eplugs run off another 15amp breaker. These two breakers are the only breakers in the panel box. The power to this panel box is supplied by the main box. There is a 40 amp breaker supplying the satellite box with the 2 15 amp breakers.

If there is a spike to 75 amps, as the graph shows...Should it not show that spike in all graphs, since power to those bars come from two breakers supplied by one breaker?

What does this tell me? Is there a way to understand where the spike derives from? Is it an apex issue? Power? Both?


The next is is that I try and put MHsouth-1 outlet to "auto" and the lights do not turn on. If I put it to "on" they go on. Even if I try from off to auto, or on to auto they will not work in auto.
Is it because of this line in my MHsouth-1 prog If Power SPlugs Off 600 Then OFF?
It has been a bit , since I programmed these lights, so I am not quite sure why i used that program line...



Ok, to add to the oddness. I just noticed that the Splugs show 29.3 amps in the pic, so I looked at the real time pic and it said 18.?...So i look and apex says everything is on that is supposed to be etc. I then try to put MHsouth onto auto, it goes off, I move slider to off, look at Splugs graph and it says 0. Go downstairs and sure enough GFI is triggered off again. Coincidence or ?

Sorry, cannot upload screen shot for some reason.

[Myka]

Do you have a GFCI plug or a GFCI breaker? My old halides wouldn't run on a GFCI plug, they kept tripping it - and not always right away. We installed a GFCI breaker instead and that solved the problem permanently.

I'm not familiar with the programming for Apex, so I'm not sure how that might play into it.

[reefwithareefer]

Just plugs, but I have had halides running on them for a year now. It does not make sense that the graph shows the spike in electricity that go from 75 amps to zero. yet not break the gfi right away. Then again it could just be the gfi. But I did not buy cheap ones. If it were the the MHs, then why does the EB* with two on them, not break? They are on separate gfi plug than the other MH.
One thing I am not, is an Electrician.

[Myka]

Neither am I. It was an electrician that solved my problem though - I am sooo not electrically inclined. :D

[Robw]

If I read this right only one MH is tripping the breaker? Can you move the MH that is tripping the breaker to another plug on the eb8? It might be a bad/leaky triac on the outlet. I don't know why it isn't working on auto. GFCI monitor the current to the load and the return current on neutral if they are not the same the breaker will trip, IE a ground fault. The triac could be "leaking" current and causing the false reading for the current usage.

I recently picked up a used Apex and am testing it. Not connected to anything. Still figuring it out. They seem to have some quirks. I had to down grade the FW to version 4.1 using the boot loader method to clear the previous owners email info. Then reload the latest version. BTW I am an electronics tech.

[byee]

Have you tried plugging the MH lights into relay outlet on the EB8 (outlet 4 and 8) and not a triac outlet?

The relay outlets are capable of handling 10A versus 5A for triac outlets.

[reef-keeper]

You should get an amp meter and see the actual draw verses what your reading say. Most amp spikes come from initial startup. Then lower to normal operation. And I agree with Myka that the GFCI receptacle might have gotten soft and is triggering with very little draw. We had to replace all the ones we have at work due premature failure. We installed breakers. Haven't had any issues since.

[reefwithareefer]

If I read this right only one MH is tripping the breaker? Can you move the MH that is tripping the breaker to another plug on the eb8? It might be a bad/leaky triac on the outlet. I don't know why it isn't working on auto. GFCI monitor the current to the load and the return current on neutral if they are not the same the breaker will trip, IE a ground fault. The triac could be "leaking" current and causing the false reading for the current usage.

I recently picked up a used Apex and am testing it. Not connected to anything. Still figuring it out. They seem to have some quirks. I had to down grade the FW to version 4.1 using the boot loader method to clear the previous owners email info. Then reload the latest version. BTW I am an electronics tech.

Actually, I am not sure it is the MH tripping the breaker. This actually started Sunday
The one MH would go on then off. It quit doing that when I changed ballasts. This ballast worked fine and is one my 4 months old...
Next day (monday) I got home and breaker was off. Looked like around 3:00. ...
Then yesterday the same thing at 3 is
kind of weird with this ebb. In the past, anything that went wrong and broke the breaker was around 3 is as well. Coincidence? ?

I will try a different plug, to at least see if it is the MH causing the issue. It all started with it so.....

[reefwithareefer]

You should get an amp meter and see the actual draw verses what your reading say. Most amp spikes come from initial startup. Then lower to normal operation. And I agree with Myka that the GFCI receptacle might have gotten soft and is triggering with very little draw. We had to replace all the ones we have at work due premature failure. We installed breakers. Haven't had any issues since.

And that is the strange thing. Nothing starts or shuts off at the time this happens.
When I say I am not an electrician it is an understatement, as I do not even understand how to use a multimeter, yet I have 2 of them.

[reefwithareefer]

Have you tried plugging the MH lights into relay outlet on the EB8 (outlet 4 and 8) and not a triac outlet?

The relay outlets are capable of handling 10A versus 5A for triac outlets.

No, I have not. Completely forgot about that. Not sure if that will help as the MH have been in the same outlet for 4 months now.
cannot hurt to try and at least eliminate that possibility.

[Robw]

I would look for something coming on at 3. It could be another device causing the breaker to trip. The MH malfunction could be a coincidence, or could have caused another device to malfunction. Are they electronic ballasts? What is the wattage of the ballasts?

[mike31154]

And that is the strange thing. Nothing starts or shuts off at the time this happens.
When I say I am not an electrician it is an understatement, as I do not even understand how to use a multimeter, yet I have 2 of them.

Probably best to get an electrician in then.

Troubleshooting what you're describing without circuit diagrams, proper test equipment & being able to physically see your equipment is a guessing game online. Sure there are a few things you can try, but you're talking spikes of 75 & 29.3 amps on house circuits that are rated for 15 amps max on a feeder circuit rated for 40 amps. That is scary! There should be some roasted wire by now if those readings are accurate. You mention GFI tripping but also talk about breakers tripping. Can you confirm both GFI & breakers tripping or only GFI?

As already mentioned, GFI devices monitor/compare current coming in on the hot lead (black) & return current via neutral (white). An imbalance of 4 to 6 milliamps will trip the GFI device. That's 0.004 to 0.006 amps, anything above which is considered capable of killing a person. A circuit breaker on the other hand, is designed to protect wiring from over current & prevent it from catching fire/burning down your house. It will not protect you from electrocution.

Folks mention that replacing a GFCI plug or outlet with a GFI circuit breaker has solved their problems & that may be so, but each of these devices is designed to trip at the same 4 to 6milliamps that protect you from electrocution. GFCI circuit breakers are expensive & typically use two spots in your breaker panel, they are large. Throw in a couple of AFCI breakers & things get tight real quick in your electrical panel. If you have the room in your panel & the $$$'s that's great. I have one GFCI breaker but use in wall outlets for a number of other locations where code calls for that type of protection. In my experience the GFCI wall outlets don't exhibit excessive nuisance trips & reset automatically in the event of a power outage when power comes back on. I've tripped the ones on my aquarium occasionally when unplugging equipment during a water change. Don't consider that abnormal, since unplugging running equipment often causes a spark at the plug & that could certainly cause a brief amperage imbalance that the GFCI sees.

High power ballasts that run MH & T5HO lights produce very high voltages at startup & there are plenty of examples of this type of lighting causing tank owners grief with GFCI devices. My guess is that the GFCIs are located a bit too close to the ballasts & there is some EMI happening, or that there is actually a problem with a ballast.

From the amperage numbers you're throwing around & several other symptoms you've described, my guess is that one or more of the relays in your controller power bars are cooked/fused, but that's a guess. Triacs were also mentioned, high current will cook them even faster than a mechanical relay. Get some professional help to check your gear.

[reefwithareefer]

I would look for something coming on at 3. It could be another device causing the breaker to trip. The MH malfunction could be a coincidence, or could have caused another device to malfunction. Are they electronic ballasts? What is the wattage of the ballasts?

I did try and find something that was coming on or off and I am baffled, as there is nothing. The apex is run of a dedicated panel and breakers, so turning on lights etc in the house has no effect on those breakers.

They are 250w HQI pendants. They were all on galaxy ballasts, until the one died, or presumed dead. I switched it out for an Oddysea ballast. This ballast came from my 250w HQI fixture that I tore apart. It is/was only about 4 months old. I assume since the Oddysea and pendant lights were the 250w HQI, the ballasts are compatible, even though Oddysea is a low end manufacturer compared to Galaxy . There is nothing to say if they are electronic or magnetic. From what I can gather, they are all electronic. Not dimmable or selectable

[reefwithareefer]

Probably best to get an electrician in then.

Troubleshooting what you're describing without circuit diagrams, proper test equipment & being able to physically see your equipment is a guessing game online. Sure there are a few things you can try, but you're talking spikes of 75 & 29.3 amps on house circuits that are rated for 15 amps max on a feeder circuit rated for 40 amps. That is scary! There should be some roasted wire by now if those readings are accurate. You mention GFI tripping but also talk about breakers tripping. Can you confirm both GFI & breakers tripping or only GFI?

As already mentioned, GFI devices monitor/compare current coming in on the hot lead (black) & return current via neutral (white). An imbalance of 4 to 6 milliamps will trip the GFI device. That's 0.004 to 0.006 amps, anything above which is considered capable of killing a person. A circuit breaker on the other hand, is designed to protect wiring from over current & prevent it from catching fire/burning down your house. It will not protect you from electrocution.

Folks mention that replacing a GFCI plug or outlet with a GFI circuit breaker has solved their problems & that may be so, but each of these devices is designed to trip at the same 4 to 6milliamps that protect you from electrocution. GFCI circuit breakers are expensive & typically use two spots in your breaker panel, they are large. Throw in a couple of AFCI breakers & things get tight real quick in your electrical panel. If you have the room in your panel & the $$$'s that's great. I have one GFCI breaker but use in wall outlets for a number of other locations where code calls for that type of protection. In my experience the GFCI wall outlets don't exhibit excessive nuisance trips & reset automatically in the event of a power outage when power comes back on. I've tripped the ones on my aquarium occasionally when unplugging equipment during a water change. Don't consider that abnormal, since unplugging running equipment often causes a spark at the plug & that could certainly cause a brief amperage imbalance that the GFCI sees.

High power ballasts that run MH & T5HO lights produce very high voltages at startup & there are plenty of examples of this type of lighting causing tank owners grief with GFCI devices. My guess is that the GFCIs are located a bit too close to the ballasts & there is some EMI happening, or that there is actually a problem with a ballast.

From the amperage numbers you're throwing around & several other symptoms you've described, my guess is that one or more of the relays in your controller power bars are cooked/fused, but that's a guess. Triacs were also mentioned, high current will cook them even faster than a mechanical relay. Get some professional help to check your gear.

Yes, it should be scary. The thing is, there are no burnt wires or smell of burnt wires, nothing that has caused great concern that way. It is why I am wondering if it is just the apex "twitching" with how many amps are running through it.
No, the breakers have not gone off, just the one GFI. Which makes it all the more strange as both breakers are run off the 40 amp breaker.

Lights, ballasts and eb8s are all about 6ft apart from one another.

I have apex support looking into it and if they can not find anything, I will probably call an Electrician to come look. Last time I called one for a similar issue, he made it sound like it would be impossible to locate the issue etc etc

[reefwithareefer]

I have unplugged the MH light to see if any spikes in amperage happen today.

[mike31154]

I looked up the specs on the EB8 energy bar & had a quick read. You probably know all this, but for the benefit of any further troubleshooting..... I see that it has a built in circuit breaker, 2 mechanical relay switched outlets rated to 10 amps maximum each & 6 solid state switched outlets rated to 5 amps maximum each. Each 250 watt Halide should draw about 2 amps & I would recommend using the mechanically switched outlets for those. I suspect they draw somewhat more than 2 amps when starting up to get the voltage needed to strike an arc in the lamp. You need to be careful not to overload the power bar. It does warn that maximum current for the whole bar is 15 amps & the built in breaker should trip if you exceed that, but even circuit breakers can mess up. It's easy to get carried away plugging stuff into something that conveniently switches so many components for you. If you were to use each individual outlet to its max allowable, you'd very quickly exceed 15 amps, in fact simply using 10 amps on each of the relay switched outlets already has you 5 amps over. Again, you likely already know all this & the breaker is there to help prevent overload, as is your feeder circuit breaker in the electrical panel.

Any one of the outlets on the power bar could fail individually since each is controlled by a separate component, either a solid state or mechanical relay. Then there's the controller software..... Normal power bars are straight electrical connections, so fewer components to fail. With the convenience of controllability, comes complexity & additional failure modes. It's a bit difficult to trust the current monitoring feature of a controller that shows a 75 amp spike and there is nothing burnt out. That's likely why the last electrician wasn't much help. Not all electricians are knowledgeable in electronics theory, many are great installers & know the electrical code to wire houses very well, but they don't need a lot of solid state/electronics theory to do that. Obviously there are industrial qualified electricians out there that deal with control circuitry, robotics etc., but that's generally not the guy that mostly does residential wiring. Different levels of training.

Is the GFI you're using one of the portable plug in types?

[mike31154]

Doing some additional reading, the Apex Comprehensive Reference Manual provides some troubleshooting procedures when your lights don't work, pages 73-74. Even gives some instructions using a multimeter. This will help you narrow down the issue by confirming serviceability of various components. Should give a better idea if it's something in your power bar or if you should suspect a ballast issue. Good luck, hope this helps.

https://www.neptunesystems.com/downloads/docs/Comprehensive_Reference_Manual.pdf

EDIT: Sorry, the procedure on page 73-74 is for dimmable light ballast, may not be appropriate to your issue, but the tests should still tell you if the relays/triacs on the power bar are functional. I need to read more carefully, or completely before I post stuff!

[reefwithareefer]

I looked up the specs on the EB8 energy bar & had a quick read. You probably know all this, but for the benefit of any further troubleshooting..... I see that it has a built in circuit breaker, 2 mechanical relay switched outlets rated to 10 amps maximum each & 6 solid state switched outlets rated to 5 amps maximum each. Each 250 watt Halide should draw about 2 amps & I would recommend using the mechanically switched outlets for those. I suspect they draw somewhat more than 2 amps when starting up to get the voltage needed to strike an arc in the lamp. You need to be careful not to overload the power bar. It does warn that maximum current for the whole bar is 15 amps & the built in breaker should trip if you exceed that, but even circuit breakers can mess up. It's easy to get carried away plugging stuff into something that conveniently switches so many components for you. If you were to use each individual outlet to its max allowable, you'd very quickly exceed 15 amps, in fact simply using 10 amps on each of the relay switched outlets already has you 5 amps over. Again, you likely already know all this & the breaker is there to help prevent overload, as is your feeder circuit breaker in the electrical panel.

Any one of the outlets on the power bar could fail individually since each is controlled by a separate component, either a solid state or mechanical relay. Then there's the controller software..... Normal power bars are straight electrical connections, so fewer components to fail. With the convenience of controllability, comes complexity & additional failure modes. It's a bit difficult to trust the current monitoring feature of a controller that shows a 75 amp spike and there is nothing burnt out. That's likely why the last electrician wasn't much help. Not all electricians are knowledgeable in electronics theory, many are great installers & know the electrical code to wire houses very well, but they don't need a lot of solid state/electronics theory to do that. Obviously there are industrial qualified electricians out there that deal with control circuitry, robotics etc., but that's generally not the guy that mostly does residential wiring. Different levels of training.

Is the GFI you're using one of the portable plug in types?


I did know that, but had forgotten about the types of plugs etc over time, as it never caused an issue before. At one time I had figured out how to calculate how many amps each item pulled etc, so that I could plug all my stuff into each EB8 and not be over the max, but have forgotten that as well. .
Each

The eb4 rarely goes above 1 amp as the dosers pull a fraction of that.
The one eb8 pulls an avg of 9.6 amps and the one that is causing issues is around 12 is

With everyone helping out with ideas, it has lead me to wonder if my chiller is not being part of the issue. If it is going on and off, it will pull a lot of amps.
Do different ballasts pull different amps? I wonder if it is because I changed ballasts, the new ballast pulls more amps and when the chiller goes on, it exceeds the max for that EB8? Which makes the graph show unrealistic spikes....

The GFI I am using is a permanent wall mounted one. Paid 30 a pop for them.

The 3:00 time may just be coincidence or the chiller just needs to go on at that time. Nothing has been changed on that EB8 all hardware is the same and in the same outlets. The only thing differenth is the new ballast.. then again, did the apex cause my galaxy ballast to fry? Is it possible?
I like puzzles, but I may have to look at getting someone in...

[reefwithareefer]

I had a very similar issue about 6 months ago. Could not figure out what it was. But I do remember it broke the GFI in the same time and fashion. I swapped out the GFI for a regular duplex. No harm came of it, but I did not like the idea of not having a GFI installed when walking get on a wet floor, so I installed a new one a month or so later. All was goodoing for about 4 months or so until Sunday....

[mike31154]

You might be on to something with the chiller and if you know one of the bars is at 12 amps, that's getting a bit tight. It's generally recommended to keep draw to 80% of maximum on any given 15 amp circuit for your own safety. Wall mounted GFCIs have improved & the newer ones shouldn't be as prone to nuisance trips, but nothing is foolproof!

Have a look at my earlier post, #17, you may have missed that in the process of writing your most recent reply. The reference manual is very comprehensive, an amazing little piece of kit this Apex. You almost need to hire someone to set it up if you wish to use all of it's capabilities!

[mike31154]

The Apex Reference Manual is full of little gems! Remember my questioning of a logged current spike of 75 amps?

https://www.neptunesystems.com/downloads/docs/Comprehensive_Reference_Manual.pdf

Page 139

"EB8 or EB4 shows incorrect amperage Similar to the previous issue, the EBx may need recalibration. The process is simple but you must be comfortable knowing how to telnet into your controller. If so, then read on. 1. Identify the Aquabus number of the EB8 or EB4 that you want to calibrate. If your EBx is numbered EB8_3 then the Aquabus number is 3. 2. Unplug everything from the EBx or at least make 100% certain it’s all turned off. This is critical. Whatever amperage the EBx is pulling when the calibration is run becomes the new zero point. You want to make sure it’s pulling 0. 3. Telnet into the controller and login with your userid and password. 4. Issue the following command: eb8zero n where ‘n’ is the Aquabus number of the EBx you want to calibrate. If you’re calibrating an EB4, the command is still ‘eb8zero’. So using the above example of an EB that is known as ‘EB8_3’ the command would be ‘eb8zero 3’. This command is case sensitive and should be entered in lower case as is shown. It executes immediately and there’s no confirmation or message when finished, just a new telnet prompt. 5. Quit telnet. That’s it. Your EBx should now read the proper amperage load when devices are active."

[reefwithareefer]

You might be on to something with the chiller and if you know one of the bars is at 12 amps, that's getting a bit tight. It's generally recommended to keep draw to 80% of maximum on any given 15 amp circuit for your own safety. Wall mounted GFCIs have improved & the newer ones shouldn't be as prone to nuisance trips, but nothing is foolproof!

Have a look at my earlier post, #17, you may have missed that in the process of writing your most recent reply. The reference manual is very comprehensive, an amazing little piece of kit this Apex. You almost need to hire someone to set it up if you wish to use all of it's capabilities!

Yes it is quite the kit. I have read the comprehensive manual enough times that I should have memorized by now, but dirt biking and concussions have taken their toll. I will re-read

Thanks for the ideas and helping working it down to possible issues and solutions

[reefwithareefer]

[QUOTE=mike31154;958337]The Apex Reference Manual is full of little gems! Remember my questioning


Hey, good one Mike. You may be onto something here...
I do not remember reading that, but will now.

Now to learn what and how to telnet...Whoever said having a saltwater tank is easy was lying....

[reefwithareefer]

Bah, telnet will be easy compared to everything else

[reefwithareefer]

So far , with the MH light plug removed from the EB8, the amps are steady at 11.3 max amps..

[Robw]

Mike, good to see you have way more time than me to help out with this problem. :)

I would put the chiller on its own circuit and not run it on the apex. They can draw a fair bit of current when they startup. Magnetic ballasts will draw more current when they strike the bulb than a electronic ballast. The running current should be close, but the magnetic ballast will use more power.

Definitely recalibrate the eb8.

[reefwithareefer]

Mike, good to see you have way more time than me to help out with this problem. :)

I would put the chiller on its own circuit and not run it on the apex. They can draw a fair bit of current when they startup. Magnetic ballasts will draw more current when they strike the bulb than a electronic ballast. The running current should be close, but the magnetic ballast will use more power.

Definitely recalibrate the eb8.

There is no "sticker" telling me what type of ballast it is...any obvious ways to tell if it is a magnetic...Even the galaxy site does not say..

[Robw]

Magnetic ballasts are heavy. Most electronic ballasts are in anodized aluminum cases with a cooling fan. Can you post pics of them?

[reefwithareefer]

Magnetic ballasts are heavy. Most electronic ballasts are in anodized aluminum cases with a cooling fan. Can you post pics of them?

Just by that description, I know they are electronic. My original Coralife fixture had big heavy black boxes for the MH. The galaxies are light with green aluminum, finned casing with fans.

I thought that all HQI bulbs were suppose to be better on magnetic..
The pendants must have originally had magnetic ballasts as the sticker on ballast said to use an M80 bulb to match ballast

[gregzz4]

If you want to move your chiller onto its own power source, but still have it on an EBx, I have a Digital Aquatics expansion socket (ES) you can have for $40

[Robw]

Sounds like they are electronic ballasts. Electronic ballasts are suppose to fire all bulbs. I believe HQI bulbs are over driven by the ballast by design. I once tried a regular DE bulb on a HQI ballast and it ended when the bulb exploded after about 15 minutes. :)

[reefwithareefer]

Sounds like they are electronic ballasts. Electronic ballasts are suppose to fire all bulbs. I believe HQI bulbs are over driven by the ballast by design. I once tried a regular DE bulb on a HQI ballast and it ended when the bulb exploded after about 15 minutes. :)

That is where I still get confused. Some articles state that all 250 DE bulbs are HQI and run best on magnetic ballasts. One article said Radiums should only be run on magnetics.
Maybe because they "overclock" the bulbs...

[Robw]

Here is possibly the most definitive guide to mh lighting for reef tanks.

http://www.manhattanreefs.com/lighting

[mike31154]

Magnetic ballasts, transformer & capacitor may be old school, but in my experience they are robust. Years ago when I was running two 250 watt MH mogul base lamps, I was itching to switch to electronic ballasts. I waited, did some reading, watched forums for threads on electronic ballasts. There was a lot of traffic regarding failure of electronic ballasts & the inability to repair them cost effectively. In the end, I'm glad I never pulled the trigger.

Magnetic ballasts are simple and most are repairable. Generally what fails is the capacitor or the igniter if the ballast has an igniter circuit. I still have my 250 watt magnetic M58 Advance ballasts in the basement gathering dust. Both are serviceable, but I've switched to LEDs. I think I changed a capacitor on one of the ballasts to keep it going. A few dollars to replace. Most electronic MH ballasts are non repairable, being completely encased internally with potting compound. Once they fail, they are trash, much like fluorescent light ballasts. So for a minor gain in efficiency & the reported ability to fire many different MH lamp types, you are sacrificing the ability to repair them once they die. A little research on which magnetic ballast fires your lamp, whether mogul, double ended, hqi etc. will probably serve you better in the long run than switching to an electronic version.

If you care to do some further reading on the subject of high discharge ballasts, here you go.

http://code-elec.com/content/00/01/53/48/38/userimages/hid-troubleshooting-guide.pdf

http://media.hydroponics.net/productdocs/HID_Pocket_Guide.pdf

Either way, IMO folks with MH & fluorescent fixtures are going to find it increasingly difficult to source parts for their fixtures. And those parts will rise in cost as manufacturers shut down production due to lack of demand. Like it or not LEDs are eventually going to take over, for almost any application except for specialties such as heat lamps.