Carbon (VSV) dosing volumes

[Aquattro]

For those dosing VSV or vodka, what amount are you dosing? I'm doing 2ml daily and I'm starting to suspect that someone replaced my VSV with NO3 juice..

[Wheelman76]

When I was dosing vinegar I was doing 20 ml a day in a 100 g system. Vodka is 8 times stronger than vinegar , so that would be equivalent to 2.5ml a day of vodka.

[Aquattro]

When I was dosing vinegar I was doing 20 ml a day in a 100 g system. Vodka is 8 times stronger than vinegar , so that would be equivalent to 2.5ml a day of vodka.

So not way far off what I'm doing. NO3 is creeping over 20ppm today. Damn fish!! lol

[Wheelman76]

Have you ever hit a peak where you got it right down to 0 or close? When I started I climbed up to 40ml a day over the course of 4 to 5 weeks , once I got to 0 I cut the dose to 20 ml and found it maintained the no3 around 0.5 to 1 From there I could tweak the dosage a little here and there to maintain where I wanted to be depending if I added any new fish.

[Aquattro]

Ya, I was at 0 before adding the MIs. They're just hyper metabolic, eating and pooping all day. I've been way over feeding to try and get them to stop eating my acros, but turning everything brown in the process.

But I know a guy with a 120 and about 80 fish, 0 across the board for nutrients, so figured I might be able to find a balance. I'm probably mistaken :(

[input80]

Hey Brad, could it be time to make a tough decision & start another tank or get rid of something?

[Aquattro]

Hey Brad, could it be time to make a tough decision & start another tank or get rid of something?

Ya, it's that time. I have a complete 90 breeder setup that I'm trying to sell the wife on, but not sure I'm sold on it either.

The MIs are amazing fish and I don't trust anyone locally to keep them alive, and that kills me. Honestly, they have to go, they're stripping branches bare.

I'm stuck with hard decisions both sides. But my reef won't be a reef much longer at this rate. Can't even bring myself to test PO4!!

[Wheelman76]

Seems like it takes a while sometimes to balance out. My frag tank is only about 19g but I have another 40 g of water or so in my sump. I only have two clown fish in this system and for months I couldn't get the no3 below 10 which is pretty crazy considering I have only 2 fish. I started dosing vinegar and got it down to 0 after 4 to 5 weeks. Now I'm trying to raise the no3 because it's dead 0 , like no pink at all on a Salifert test , and since my FT is mostly acans and zoas I don't like them that low. I dropped the vinegar down to less than 5 ml per day and started feeding heavier and more aminos and it still didn't help , so for now I've stopped dosing vinegar completely and I'll see if I can maintain levels where I want now.

[input80]

Understood,,,,,, Gonna be rough,,, Obviously you're the only one to make that answer,,,,,, although it may be completely unaesthetically (my word of the day) pleaseing & impractical, have you thought of separating them within the tank (maybe eggcrate or something??

[Aquattro]

Understood,,,,,, Gonna be rough,,, Obviously you're the only one to make that answer,,,,,, although it may be completely unaesthetically (my word of the day) pleaseing & impractical, have you thought of separating them within the tank (maybe eggcrate or something??

Not really possible, and that pretty much wrecks the tank :)

Jess, while I may be able to get a handle on levels, I still have the coral eating issue, and less food means more coral snacks.

[Wheelman76]

Yeah for sure , it's a shame that they acquired a taste for acro's

[Aquattro]

I can't do anything immediately, so I'll try and get the numbers down over the next month. See what happens after that. I'll raise carbon a bit and see if that helps. thx

[Ram3500]

I know your question is to those dossing vodka,sugar,vinegar or vodka alone but I have had amazing results with just vinegar . I started about four months ago after having on going problems with my bio pellets clumping. My no3 when up to about 15 but now I have it down to almost zero just a little pink with Salifert and zero with Api . My bio load is heavy and I am dosing 12 times a day 10 ml . Now that I have lowered the no3 I am going to start dialing it back a bit and see if it can maintain the lower level no3 .

[Wheelman76]

120ml a day ? What's your water volume ?

[Aquattro]

120ml a day ? What's your water volume ?

That's 15ml of vodka, no way I'm adding that much :)

[Ram3500]

Sorry guys I posted my alk dosing schedule. :redface: My total system is about 190 gal I am dosing 12 times a day 5ml not 10ml so total 60 ml . I have been following this chart for the most part with good results . I started dossing march 15 .

http://i1343.photobucket.com/albums/o794/groundhogdog/E3286516-6219-4F90-8568-68FE5DF680E6_zpsoim0hnto.png (http://s1343.photobucket.com/user/groundhogdog/media/E3286516-6219-4F90-8568-68FE5DF680E6_zpsoim0hnto.png.html)

[Aquattro]

That's more like it. Same chart for vodka, so about the same as what I'm adding. I'll give it more time and see what develops.

[Myka]

I never had any luck with vodka dosing - all I managed was to brown out my Acros. Ever considered biopellets?

[Aquattro]

I never had any luck with vodka dosing - all I managed was to brown out my Acros. Ever considered biopellets?

No, I prefer not adding any more gear. I could, I have a reactor, but will try with the vodka first

[Myka]

No, I prefer not adding any more gear. I could, I have a reactor, but will try with the vodka first

Sounds like you already are trying...and it sucks! :p

I put vinegar in the kalkwasser, but that's about as crazy as my VSV dosing gets.

[Aquattro]

Sounds like you already are trying...and it sucks! :p


Well, my dosing manually might have been a bit hit and miss, so hoping to get my doser on line today and run for a month and re-evaluate.

[Myka]

Well, my dosing manually might have been a bit hit and miss, so hoping to get my doser on line today and run for a month and re-evaluate.

Ok, that's fair.

[maron6977]

Following along . Going thru same thing .
Excuse my ignorance - what are MI's ?

[maron6977]

Forget it - moorish idol.
I'm adding microbacter7 also . Started vinegar 2 weeks ago . & things are turning brown. Hoping it will turn around . No3 is high , so doing extra water changes. Time will tell .
Good luck

[Aquattro]

Oddly, the time I used MB7, I had a huge cyano outbreak. Gave up on that. Water changes aren't helping me a lot either, last week, NO3 at 10, did a 50% water change, this week NO3 at 20+.

[Plainswalker]

Wow, I must be overkilling mine. 70mL a day on a 90g. Granted, I have heavy stocking but that's way over what everyone's using.

[Myka]

Any update Brad?

[Aquattro]

Any update Brad?

Ya, I think carbon dosing is stoopid.

[maron6977]

+1

[Reef Pilot]

Yeah, really don't get why people bother with dosing carbon. I tried it once many years ago, and decided very quickly this was going to be too much work (and attention). Got a bio pellet reactor then and couldn't be simpler. Just add some bio pellets about once a year (went a year and half last time) and forget. N03 consistently stays near zero until bio pellets run out.

And no extra pump with mine. I have a T off my return line that runs through my chiller, and return from that goes through my bio pellet reactor.

[Aquattro]

I just don't find it works in my tank. In fact, NO3 has never been higher. I've stopped a couple days ago, probably going to lean back towards Zeovit, if I can figure out how to fit a reactor in my sump.

[maron6977]

I have 2 TLF reactors , can I just run pellets thru those ? I know they make different screens to adapt them . Also which pellets do you recommend ?

[Lampshade]

The TLF reactors didn't seem to cut it for me, I have the big one and small one (forget what they're called). I ended up with dead spots no matter how much flow I pumped through them. I got the Vertex bio pellet reactor and used it for a long time with no problem.

I stopped using bio-pellets because it was too low of a nutrient system. My nitrates went crazy for awhile after stopping, ZEObak ended up saving me. I don't think I had enough different beneficial bacteria to break down my tank waste after the bio-pellets were removed. All balanced back after awhile but took a few weeks.

Aquattro, I'd recommend trying the same thing, try ZEObak or something of the sort. You're feeding your bacteria that help your tank cycle, but you may not have enough different kinds after running ULNS with zeovit. That's the sales pitch on it and it seemed to help me.

edit:I see others recommended microbacter7 - same kind of thing

[Aquattro]

edit:I see others recommended microbacter7 - same kind of thing

If I add that, I get cyano. Tried and failed.

[Doug]

I tried it also Brad. Never did anything I noticed. Will stick to Prodibio. Mind you not sure if it does anything either. Also starting to add a bit of vinegar, manually. Can't put it in my top off, as it pushes kalk.

[Aquattro]

Can't put it in my top off, as it pushes kalk.

Your top off has kalk? You could add vinegar to that directly, it increases saturation of kalk. If you needed it more saturated.

But vinegar is carbon dosing, so you did it, but stopped, but doing it again?

[Myka]

Biopellets work...unless you do something inherently wrong. :lol: I use the Reef Dynamics biopellet reactors on client tanks. They are excellent recirculating reactors. I have one client tank that was at about 500 ppm nitrate when I added the biopellet reactor a few months ago, and it`s now down to about 150 ppm. That is significantly significant. ;)

[Doug]

Your top off has kalk? You could add vinegar to that directly, it increases saturation of kalk. If you needed it more saturated.
So I would add it to my Tunze kalk reactor?

But vinegar is carbon dosing, so you did it, but stopped, but doing it again? Not yet. Just prodibio. I was discussing it with Mindy as to what shes adding.

[Wheelman76]

Prodibio IS carbon dosing , same with vinegar , vodka , sugar , Zeovit ,biopellets etc

[Aquattro]

Prodibio IS carbon dosing , same with vinegar , vodka , sugar , Zeovit ,biopellets etc

Yup, all the same basic premise.

[Reef Pilot]

Yup, all the same basic premise.
Maybe same premise, but not the same in actual practice. Bio pellets = easy, rest = PITA. It always kills me when I see people that insist on doing things the hard way... And you can't tell them otherwise...:(

[Aquattro]

Maybe same premise, but not the same in actual practice. Bio pellets = easy, rest = PITA. It always kills me when I see people that insist on doing things the hard way... And you can't tell them otherwise...:(

Ya, lots of ways of doing it, some work better for one person, not the next.

[Reef Pilot]

Ya, lots of ways of doing it, some work better for one person, not the next.
Yes, but what I've found, too, is that when it doesn't work for the other person, it is usually because they are not doing something right. And then they say that method doesn't work... Maybe they should try to find what they were doing wrong instead of just saying it doesn't work for them.

We all know coral reef keeping isn't all easy. We wouldn't be doing it, if that were the case, right? But geez, some of this stuff really isn't rocket science...

Like my sig says: Solutions are easy. The real difficulty lies in discovering the problem.

[maron6977]

Reading up on bio pellets & they don't recommend using with phosphate removal. So can't use foz-down ?
Also so adding vinegar possibly could be killing some bacteria but feeding others . Could that be why the increase in nitrates ???
I've read where it takes , say , 3 months before nitrates drop .

[Aquattro]

For me, Zeovit worked well for years. Apparently. VSV dosing daily, not so much. I've given it enough time now to show results if results were coming, and I now believe they are not.

Unfortunately for me, I know the problem, but the solution isn't an option. So I need an alternate solution to the secondary problem. And I need a shorter zeo reactor.

[Reef Pilot]

Reading up on bio pellets & they don't recommend using with phosphate removal. So can't use foz-down ?
Also so adding vinegar possibly could be killing some bacteria but feeding others . Could that be why the increase in nitrates ???
I've read where it takes , say , 3 months before nitrates drop .
I used both foz down and GFO with bio pellets and they all worked. I think what they are saying is that the bio pellets need some phosphates to break down (or bind) the nitrates with the bacteria to be skimmed off. But unless you are running an ultra low nutrient system, you will likely always have some phosphates and some nitrates. When I test mine, they are near zero, but don't always get a zero reading. I think the food, fish poop, detritus, rocks, etc., is always producing some nutrients in your tank.

Not sure about the vinegar killing some bacteria and creating nitrates, but for sure they feed others (like cyano), which is why you need MB7 or some other beneficial bacteria dosing.

But yeah, Mark, as discussed, it can take a few months to get nitrates (same with phosphates) under control if you start with high numbers. And it is always better to go slow anyway, and patience with keen observation is key.

[Wheelman76]

Maybe same premise, but not the same in actual practice. Bio pellets = easy, rest = PITA. It always kills me when I see people that insist on doing things the hard way... And you can't tell them otherwise...:(


Walk into kitchen....open up vinegar.....measure 20ml......dump into tank. If that's too much work then you're in the wrong hobby lol

[Aquattro]

Walk into kitchen....open up vinegar.....measure 20ml......dump into tank. If that's too much work then you're in the wrong hobby lol

I'm lazy, I keep my bottle under the stand. I have a doser to add VSV, but see first comment. lol

[Wheelman76]

Or I suppose you could spend a couple hundred on a bio pellet reactor , plumb it into your system , replace pellets every six months ( or however often it is ) and check every once in a while to make sure they are tumbling correctly. Either way I would hardly say that's any easier than dosing vinegar or vodka etc.

[Wheelman76]

I'm lazy, I keep my bottle under the stand. I have a doser to add VSV, but see first comment. lol


Even easier lol

[Plainswalker]

Or I suppose you could spend a couple hundred on a bio pellet reactor , plumb it into your system , replace pellets every six months ( or however often it is ) and check every once in a while to make sure they are tumbling correctly. Either way I would hardly say that's any easier than dosing vinegar or vodka etc.

I keep thinking about trying biopellets but I can't really beat the simplicity of adding vinegar using a doser. All I have to do is refill a container once a month. Very simple and straightforward - don't have to worry about pellet tumbling and I don't have to take apart the reactor to refill.

[Myka]

I used to be dead against biopellets because I saw so many people having troubles with them. There are a few things to keep in mind when using them, and other than that they do their job - really well. I don't need biopellets in my own tank, but I do use Prodibio (for good bacteria balance) and vinegar (to make the kalk more concentrated). Though the latter two the carbon dosing effect is the secondary effect for me. :lol:

[Reef Pilot]

Walk into kitchen....open up vinegar.....measure 20ml......dump into tank. If that's too much work then you're in the wrong hobby lol
I'm lazy,... would rather do it once a year (went a year and half last time) than once a day. Keeps nitrates near zero, and only test about once a month.

[Reef Pilot]

I keep thinking about trying biopellets but I can't really beat the simplicity of adding vinegar using a doser. All I have to do is refill a container once a month. Very simple and straightforward - don't have to worry about pellet tumbling and I don't have to take apart the reactor to refill.
I use a doser for Ca and alk, but have to test often and make occasional adjustments. Once the pellets are tumbling properly (no more than a day or two of flow adjustments), no other adjustments or maintenance necessary.

I tried the carbon dosing initially, and for me it was a big PITA with all the measuring, calculating, and adjusting to get your nitrates where you want them to be.

Plus with dosers there is always a risk if something goes wrong, whether it is lines plugging, calculation errors (esp initially), or Apex (or other timer) going nuts on you.