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View Full Version : Here we go again: MIs, Take III


Aquattro
04-10-2015, 12:49 AM
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd101/reef_raf/MI_New_zpskdc6urg6.jpg

Let's see if this works better than last time.

hillegom
04-10-2015, 01:15 AM
Whats that 3rd fish?
Good luck with these.
You have some experience and I'm sure these will survive.

straightrazorguy
04-10-2015, 02:08 AM
:popcorn:

Aquattro
04-10-2015, 02:13 AM
Whats that 3rd fish?


Couple of Potters angels in there too. Not mine.

Aquattro
04-10-2015, 02:23 AM
You have some experience and I'm sure these will survive.

And, not sure how much experience I have, but have learned lessons along the way.
These two flew in from Hawaii this morning, so nice and fresh. Both fat, well acclimated now, so we'll see.
Of course, since I ordered a spare, I now have 2 which may turn out to be a struggle. Adding to DT in a few minutes and we'll see what happens.

Wretch
04-10-2015, 02:35 AM
Good luck. Hope they work out for you this time.

Bblinks
04-10-2015, 08:48 PM
And.....

Aquattro
04-10-2015, 10:06 PM
So far adapting well together, had to remove a nasty yellow tang at midnight. Haven't fed yet, but about to try now.

Wheelman76
04-10-2015, 10:37 PM
Good luck Brad , hopefully all goes well this time.

Aquattro
04-10-2015, 10:44 PM
Not eating yet, but it's early. Otherwise look comfy in there :)

The Codfather
04-10-2015, 11:02 PM
I think that having them from Hawaii is definetly a plus, especially if they're fat and sassy to begin with. The last idol I had was just over a year old, I ended up moving and lost in the move. Never tried one since but I never had much problems to begin with, it ate from day one.
At any rate, good luck, third times a charm I've heard.

gobytron
04-10-2015, 11:21 PM
is anyone running a pool on this?

SeaHorse_Fanatic
04-10-2015, 11:38 PM
Kept one back in the mid-80s (yeah, feeling old) in a 108g FO tank with no live rock (what was that?) and no skimmer (same question). It ate everything I fed to my other fish, including pieces of shrimp, squid & smelts. Had it for almost a year until I sold it when I shut down that tank. Since the age of the Internet, I now have learned how hard these are to keep alive in captivity. Maybe ignorance is bliss after all.:lol:

reefwars
04-11-2015, 12:13 AM
is anyone running a pool on this?

i dont know about pool but i think there's a poll lol :P

Aquattro
04-11-2015, 03:30 PM
Morning #2. No interest in Italian Mysis. Going to try blanched kale shortly, with a side of brine shrimp.

Aquattro
04-11-2015, 09:43 PM
Both now eating some (food) clams, so it's a start.

kobelka
04-12-2015, 02:47 AM
Thats good news. How bout a pic

Aquattro
04-12-2015, 03:07 AM
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd101/reef_raf/MI_zpsdtuwys5y.jpg

crimper
04-12-2015, 03:51 AM
That's the same thing I did with Copperband. After my first disaster, I bought 2. They didn't touch any food after 10 days, now I got two both eating well.

Your Idols are looking Sassy! :mrgreen: Good luck with them Brad. Please let us know how you did. :biggrin:

Bblinks
04-12-2015, 03:51 AM
Good to hear brad! I don't think providing them with a bit of purple nori throughout the day will hurt. Mine looked exactly like the skinny one you got before it started on nori and look at him now, huge!

Aquattro
04-12-2015, 03:56 AM
Rich, where is purple nori sourced?

Wheelman76
04-12-2015, 04:16 AM
Two little fishes purple nori sheets. Sold at Jl

Aquattro
04-12-2015, 05:33 AM
Two little fishes purple nori sheets. Sold at Jl

Ah, that store in Van :) I have green nori. Will have to do.

Bblinks
04-12-2015, 05:35 AM
Ah, that store in Van :) I have green nori. Will have to do.

They like the purple nori better. Might have to go and visit the unspeakable aquarium store on the island....

Aquattro
04-12-2015, 05:37 AM
They like the purple nori better. Might have to go and visit the unspeakable aquarium store on the island....

Not sure either carries it. Maybe Petsmart??

kobelka
04-12-2015, 12:45 PM
They sure are beautiful. Best of luck with them.

reeferfulton
04-12-2015, 04:03 PM
i have half a bag julian springs purple seaweed if you need brad

Aquattro
04-12-2015, 04:07 PM
i have half a bag julian springs purple seaweed if you need brad

Thanks, Japarto is bringing some over this morning. If it works, I'll take whatever I can find :)

Wretch
04-13-2015, 09:11 PM
So whats the news? Are they eating more then clams yet? Liking the purple seaweed?

Aquattro
04-13-2015, 09:40 PM
So whats the news? Are they eating more then clams yet? Liking the purple seaweed?

No, Rich lied to me. Won't touch it. They're also enjoying (expensive) oysters and scallops. I'll keep trying seaweed, and may soak it in oyster juice to trick them. Hopefully I'm smarter than fish :)

Bblinks
04-13-2015, 10:43 PM
No, Rich lied to me. Won't touch it. They're also enjoying (expensive) oysters and scallops. I'll keep trying seaweed, and may soak it in oyster juice to trick them. Hopefully I'm smarter than fish :)

Give it some time buddy....:wink:

Aquattro
04-13-2015, 10:45 PM
Give it some time buddy....:wink:

I don't get it. I showed them the package where it says Moorish Idols eat it. Maybe they can't read??

Bblinks
04-13-2015, 11:03 PM
I don't get it. I showed them the package where it says Moorish Idols eat it. Maybe they can't read??

Maybe they need glasses....

chef
04-13-2015, 11:08 PM
Is your tank glass prescription, or that clear nice low iron stuff?

gobytron
04-13-2015, 11:32 PM
did you see the copper banded butterfly feeding apparatus that was featured in reef hobbyist magazine?

I thought it might also work to engage an MI

Aquattro
04-13-2015, 11:40 PM
did you see the copper banded butterfly feeding apparatus that was featured in reef hobbyist magazine?

I thought it might also work to engage an MI

nope??

gobytron
04-13-2015, 11:51 PM
http://www.reefhobbyistmagazine.com/

In latest edition.

A UNIQUE APPROACH TO FEEDING COPPERBANDS

Read over it this am.

Reef Pilot
04-13-2015, 11:58 PM
http://www.reefhobbyistmagazine.com/

In latest edition.

A UNIQUE APPROACH TO FEEDING COPPERBANDS

Read over it this am.
And have you ever seen this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fQjAZjafxM

Bblinks
04-14-2015, 12:11 AM
I am gonna make one for my copper band...super cool and creative.

Aquattro
04-14-2015, 02:04 AM
Looks like it could be adapted to feed MIs.

crimper
04-14-2015, 06:14 AM
And have you ever seen this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fQjAZjafxM

Sorry I don't want to hijack this tread, but Thanks for sharing Walter.

I will try that on my CB. I have 2 and already started eating PE Mysis. That's a brilliant idea.

Aquattro
04-15-2015, 01:40 AM
Still pigging out on oysters. Saw some sampling of red seaweed today.

Interesting, the little guy's dorsal streamer has grown over 2 inches since Friday. Bigger guy just started regrowing his, quite a bit behind the smaller fish. Smaller still seems more settled than the bigger one.
When it comes time to re-home, the big one will hopefully go to larger tank.

WarDog
04-15-2015, 02:26 AM
Good to hear... fingers still crossed for you!

Bblinks
04-15-2015, 02:46 AM
Still pigging out on oysters. Saw some sampling of red seaweed today.

Interesting, the little guy's dorsal streamer has grown over 2 inches since Friday. Bigger guy just started regrowing his, quite a bit behind the smaller fish. Smaller still seems more settled than the bigger one.
When it comes time to re-home, the big one will hopefully go to larger tank.

Just like I said....un-huh! :wink:

Aquattro
04-15-2015, 04:00 AM
Just like I said....un-huh! :wink:

lol. Go tell Jeff to get my purple stuff here quick!

Aquattro
04-17-2015, 08:26 PM
End of week 1. Both fish doing well, eating clams and oysters. Bigger one is now eating mysis and the smaller is sampling the purple algae.
I need to do a 50% water change tomorrow, as I can notice the effects of dumping in all this food!
Dorsal filaments are growing like crazy. Smaller fish doesn't look like he's put on any weight, but looks more relaxed in the tank vs the larger fish.

Read an article by Bob Fenner suggesting always add MIs in pairs, I think maybe Bob has a drinking problem. We'll see :)

albert_dao
04-17-2015, 08:55 PM
Read an article by Bob Fenner suggesting always add MIs in pairs, I think maybe Bob has a drinking problem. We'll see :)


It's not a drinking problem if that's the gospel he's preaching 0___0

Aquattro
04-19-2015, 01:50 AM
Interesting news today. There is another local guy that also got a pair of MI from the same box. Both eating before mine, but lasted only a week. I have no idea how that tank is setup to compare to mine.

Mine are both eating everything but pellets now, so hopefully I'm doing something righter..

kobelka
04-19-2015, 10:49 PM
We probably need another pic about now.:lol:

Aquattro
04-20-2015, 12:10 AM
We probably need another pic about now.:lol:

Ya, probably. Maybe a pic of them biting me, or eating putty? :)

Bblinks
04-20-2015, 03:24 AM
Brad, are both MIs getting along? Maybe I should add a couple more...

Aquattro
04-20-2015, 03:30 AM
Brad, are both MIs getting along? Maybe I should add a couple more...

So far, but according to the RC thread, it's not likely to last. We'll see..

StirCrazy
04-20-2015, 05:24 AM
Morning #2. No interest in Italian Mysis.

try Greek Mysis

Steve

Aquattro
04-23-2015, 11:46 PM
2 week anniversary. The little guy stopped eating well for a couple days, but seems to have his appetite back again. Still a bit thin, but eating well. Big guy eats everything, but still looks a bit frazzled in the tank. Concerned with re-homing tho, as I'm not sure I know anyone that I trust can keep him alive.

I hope in time it subsides, but for now, I realize I can't enjoy these fish, I'm always worried about waking up or coming home to dead fish! I suppose with more time that will pass, but for now, I'm still anxious getting home from work.

I'll try and dig out the camera for an updated shot later tonight.

Doug
04-24-2015, 01:47 AM
Brad whats a DT.

hillegom
04-24-2015, 01:49 AM
DeTox?

Wheelman76
04-24-2015, 02:08 AM
Display tank

Aquattro
04-24-2015, 02:14 AM
Both of the above :)

Skimmer King
04-24-2015, 02:33 AM
Right on Brad congrats on the MI so far dude they will do good bud :mrgreen:

Aquattro
04-24-2015, 02:35 AM
Right on Brad congrats on the MI so far dude they will do good bud :mrgreen:

It's only 2 weeks Mike, not going to celebrate yet. Might start feeling confident at 6 months!!

Aquattro
04-24-2015, 02:36 AM
I'll add that I think I've done everything right this time to support these fish. If they don't make it, I won't try again.

Bblinks
04-24-2015, 05:00 AM
I got a good feeling Brad. As long as it's eating good it will do just fine. I am pretty interested in the pair though, interesting on how that's gonna pan out.

gregzz4
04-24-2015, 05:31 AM
Me too
I think they're keepers

Aquattro
04-24-2015, 06:32 AM
I got a good feeling Brad. As long as it's eating good it will do just fine. I am pretty interested in the pair though, interesting on how that's gonna pan out.

The other guy here that got two had them eating everything in 2 days, fed multiple times per day. They lasted a week. He says he has strong flow and doesn't drop it at night, but woke up to 2 dead fish one morning.
Based on that, I'm going to wait a while before I relax a bit :)

Aquattro
04-24-2015, 06:34 AM
As for a pair, I'd maybe hold off and see what mine do. Most (all?) reports in the MI thread at RC say it won't work long term. Hate to see you lose a stable one by adding a second.

gregzz4
04-24-2015, 07:27 AM
I think you both should forget the idea of a pair as it's apparently not succesful long-term
I'll be by to pickup your un-wanted 'other' Brad :lol:

OK, maybe not. And I don't know if I could ever house one in my 75g anyway. I'm sure it's on the 'OMG, your tank is too small' list :lol:

I'm still cheering for you Brad. I wanna see you succeed with your 2 dudes long-term, no matter what Denny or his poll says :eat this Mr Negative: :mrgreen:

Aquattro
04-24-2015, 07:29 AM
Didn't the poll mostly think they'll be fine? :)

The problem I have is the pair gets along fine now, but if they fight, which one to part with, and to where? I'd hate to re-home it and see it die a week later

Wretch
04-24-2015, 07:40 AM
Didn't the poll mostly think they'll be fine? :)

The problem I have is the pair gets along fine now, but if they fight, which one to part with, and to where? I'd hate to re-home it and see it die a week later

Name them and then keep the one with the name you like the most.

or

Flip a coin.

or

Stick it out and see what happens? Just have someone ready to take one if needed. Hoping for the best.

gregzz4
04-24-2015, 07:40 AM
Hmm, not impressed with the poll results
67-33 they will make it
Looks like you're above the failing level of most College students though, so I'd say you're good to go ( bad reference, had nothing else to offer)

Keep them both. If things go sideways, you could always make a trip to J&L and drop one off at my place. I'm sure Donna would love one in our 75g :lol:

Samw
04-24-2015, 07:48 AM
The other guy here that got two had them eating everything in 2 days, fed multiple times per day. They lasted a week. He says he has strong flow and doesn't drop it at night, but woke up to 2 dead fish one morning.
Based on that, I'm going to wait a while before I relax a bit :)

Again, died overnight. Both at the same time. DO level is always at its lowest at night when lights out after several hours. As I said before, strong flow does not equal high DO. This has been measured before in Eric's paper and also I had strong flow at the surface of my tank which didn't really increase DO. Obviously, I don't know the setup and am just speculating, but the only way to know for sure what the DO levels are from 2am-6am is with a DO monitor/meter which almost no one uses. The sudden death overnight of both animals is a clue. Why always at night? If diet was an issue, the fish would waste away slowly. We've all seen what it looks like when a fish dies from malnutrition.

DO levels fluctuate wildly from day to day, night to night. But the lowest levels are always at night after lights out for several hours and the levels each night are different. I've had my levels go from 125% saturation during the day to something like 35% at night even with skimmer on. Some nights I get 40%. This was 10 years ago. Nowadays, I think I'm getting closer to 80% at night since I have no algae and deploy a UV sterilizer. There are countless things that affect DO but very few aquarists know what their lowest DO levels are at night. In most cases it doesn't matter because many big systems have enough DO for almost all of the fishes out there. Most marine fishes don't need a lot of DO. I think clownfishes only need 18% DO. I read that just a while ago.

Aquattro
04-24-2015, 07:49 AM
Stick it out and see what happens? Just have someone ready to take one if needed. Hoping for the best.

Mostly the plan for now. Except the part of having someone ready to take one of needed :) I keep them full, there is a good size difference, and they seem like friends for now, so I'll try and stick it out.

Aquattro
04-24-2015, 07:51 AM
Again, died overnight. Both at the same time. DO level is always at its lowest at night when lights out after several hours. As I said before, strong flow does not equal high DO. Obviously, I don't know the setup and am just speculating, but the only way to know for sure what the DO levels are from 2am-6am is with a DO monitor/meter which almost no one uses. The sudden death overnight of both animals is a clue. Why always at night? DO levels fluctuate wildly from day to day, night to night. But the lowest levels are always at night after lights out for several hours and the levels each night are different. I've had my levels go from 125% saturation during the day to something like 35% at night even with skimmer on. Some nights I get 40%. Nowadays, I think I'm getting closer to 80% at night since I have no algae and deploy a UV sterilizer. There are countless things that affect DO.

Ya, I don't know the system either. I do know he has a lot less algae, but a lot more coral. And his idea of strong flow might not be mine. Currently my bulbs are covered in salt from splashing, and they're a foot off the water. My flow heavily breaks the surface 24/7. Without a DO meter tho, no real way to tell what happens over night.

Aquattro
04-24-2015, 07:55 AM
I recall now that he doses H2O2, which reduces the amount of DO in solution, so maybe significant?

gregzz4
04-24-2015, 08:03 AM
I recall now that he doses H2O2, which reduces the amount of DO in solution, so maybe significant?
Could be a big factor
So you know there's a home for one here, right ? Just in case you need to make a trip to J&L ... :wink:

Just kidding
If I really wanted one I could go local

Aquattro
04-24-2015, 02:31 PM
Could be a big factor
So you know there's a home for one here, right ? Just in case you need to make a trip to J&L ... :wink:

Keep in mind these things have a recommended tank size of 200g :) I wouldn't add one to a 75g.

gregzz4
04-24-2015, 02:35 PM
I wouldn't add one to a 75g.
Me either. I have enough challenges as it is.

daplatapus
04-24-2015, 03:05 PM
IF stuck having to choose which one to give away, my thoughts would always be the biggest and strongest. The one with the most chance of surviving somewhere else.

Aquattro
04-24-2015, 03:12 PM
IF stuck having to choose which one to give away, my thoughts would always be the biggest and strongest. The one with the most chance of surviving somewhere else.

Somewhat agree. The bigger is a more robust specimen, and much fatter, AND, he seems more annoyed with the smaller tank. But, the smaller guy is still on my worry list whether he'll put on some weight. So I could end up giving the survivor away and losing the one I keep. This could change over the next month, so we'll see. Hopefully they stay buddies and I can keep both. Not counting on that though..

Bblinks
04-24-2015, 06:26 PM
Ya, I don't know the system either. I do know he has a lot less algae, but a lot more coral. And his idea of strong flow might not be mine. Currently my bulbs are covered in salt from splashing, and they're a foot off the water. My flow heavily breaks the surface 24/7. Without a DO meter tho, no real way to tell what happens over night.

It would be really interesting to see what the actual DO is reading. I think we should get canreef to sponsor one.... I mean if indeed this is the case that caused a pair of well fed fish into their untimely demise then we might be onto something here. This could potentially save a lot of heartache for a lot of us in this hobby.

Sam, you think you will be able to get your hands on one of them meters?

Bblinks
04-24-2015, 06:27 PM
Me either. I have enough challenges as it is.

JL has some but don't try to quarantine it, it will just die....

Samw
04-25-2015, 01:13 AM
It would be really interesting to see what the actual DO is reading. I think we should get canreef to sponsor one.... I mean if indeed this is the case that caused a pair of well fed fish into their untimely demise then we might be onto something here. This could potentially save a lot of heartache for a lot of us in this hobby.

Sam, you think you will be able to get your hands on one of them meters?


Meters can be rented from Hoskins Lab I think. A monitor that does 24/7 charting would be more useful than a meter because the data can be logged and one can go back to look at the levels from the logs when a fish dies unexpectedly at night. Those go for $2,000 though so not many people will own those.

Below is a chart of what I think is a typical a tank. The night bottom value might look low but that is probably typical for an aerated tank. I have no doubt that anyone running a skimmer in their system has enough DO. For those with tanks that are not aerated properly to begin with (using only powerheads or hang on back filters for example), the Idol could be fine for months but over time as algae grew or had a bloom, or the bioload increased, or there was lots of uneatened food one day causing decay and bacteria bloom, or summer came and the temp went up; then one night for whatever the reason, the DO drops just past the point needed for this particular fish and while it was fine for months, it unexpectedly dies (while everything else in the tank was ok). For tanks that have proper aeration (like a skimmer), DO wouldn't be an issue. The problem then is only turning it off and forgetting to turn it back on or turning off the return pump one night.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/10/review

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/10/review_album/Figure3.JPG


If a tank has lots of algae, expect the range to be higher. Algae produces O2 during the day and consumes it at night. My results support this. When I had lots of algae, my DO range was large 50%-125%. When I had no algae, my DO range was small 80%-100%.

In this graph below (I think measurements from the Adriatic Sea), the spikes are due to algae growing near the sensor before they fixed it.

http://buoy.mbss.org/portal/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=256&Itemid=58&lang=en

http://buoy.mbss.org/portal/images/stories/novice/graf1_eng.png

Aquattro
04-25-2015, 01:44 AM
The tank in question has constant flow and a large skimmer. Nothing changed between peak day and peak night, other than photosynthetic cycle. It is a very well stocked SPS tank, so I suspect that coral contribute to O2 consumption overnight

Samw
04-25-2015, 02:10 AM
OK, I'll go with mysterious death, not DO related. :)

Aquattro
04-25-2015, 02:17 AM
OK, I'll go with mysterious death, not DO related. :)

Just wondering how much photosynthesis plays in DO levels?

Aquattro
04-25-2015, 02:29 AM
Forgot I was going to post a pic. Quick phone shot

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd101/reef_raf/MI2_zpsjt9l6kgy.jpg

Myka
04-25-2015, 03:06 AM
They look HUGE in there! Appear nice and fat in the pic though.

Aquattro
04-25-2015, 04:53 AM
They look HUGE in there! Appear nice and fat in the pic though.

The pic does make them look bigger, but the big guy is a bit cramped. If he doesn't settle, he'll go to a bigger tank

Samw
04-25-2015, 11:48 PM
Just wondering how much photosynthesis plays in DO levels?

Photosynthesis adds oxygen. With algae, I got plenty of supersaturation compared to having no algae. But my point was how algae can consume oxygen at night. In my system, it seemed to be significant. There are lots of articles on this topic.

Oh, the other chart didn't show up in my post. Here it shows what could be the oxygen levels of a typical reef tank throughout the day as measured by a $2,300 monitor from the other article. It varies wildly though depending on lots of factors. Some nights, the low will be lower and some days, the high will be higher. Shows the range from 3.5 mg/l to 8 mg/l

https://scontent-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/11182292_10152687537336784_1875962941646492689_n.j pg?oh=5017fcc26f6cd992975d56100c2b0bed&oe=559C23C1

Samw
04-26-2015, 12:14 AM
Some things to consider for mysterious deaths :)

http://www.fishchannel.com/fish-health/saltwater-conditions/watch-that-ph.aspx


Here is a case where someone was unable to keep flame angels after trying many including established ones. Looking at the list of equipment, I do not see an aerator like a skimmer. In my experience, I also had several healthy established angels (in separate incidents) die overnight when I turned off my skimmer (everything else was fine).

http://www.aquariumpros.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=30777

.

Aquattro
04-26-2015, 01:42 AM
Photosynthesis adds oxygen.

C'mon, you know what I mean. "Photosynthesis" as a cycle, so the respiration phase where organisms consume O2 :)

And who turns off skimmers, that's silly.

Samw
04-26-2015, 02:12 AM
C'mon, you know what I mean. "Photosynthesis" as a cycle, so the respiration phase where organisms consume O2 :)

And who turns off skimmers, that's silly.


I didn't. I thought you were literally asking about photosynthesis which is specifically producing o2 as a result. So you really meant to ask what is the effect of cellular respiration (the opposite of photosynthesis). So as I said previously, in my tank when I had algae and no UV, my levels bottom at 50% (sometimes less) and now with no algae and UV, my levels bottom at 80%. I read in research papers that some reef fish like some gobies can survive in 3% saturation and damsels and cardinalfish around 10%-20% saturation. It goes without saying that different species will have different levels of tolerance to hypoxia. All of my mysterious deaths of established fish as I can recollect seems to occur when my skimmer was off overnight and always angels so far (pretty sure the MI would have perished too if it hadn't been relocated prior). Since the skimmer is in my DT, I turn it off when I do water changes, feed the fish, etc.

http://www.fondriest.com/environmental-measurements/parameters/water-quality/algae-phytoplankton-chlorophyll/

"Oxygen Depletion and Fish Kills
If an algal bloom appears, a fish kill can occur shortly thereafter due to the environmental stresses caused by the bloom. A fish kill, also known as a fish die-off is when a large concentration of fish die. The most common cause of this event is lack of oxygen 45."

George
04-26-2015, 04:44 AM
I think (angel) fish dead overnight has some reasons other than oxygen. For a couple year, I ran a tank that has no skimmer. The tank had some very sensitive angelfish like golden and regal among other angelfish. All fish looked healthy and happy. As a matter of fact, one night I forgot to turn on my power heads after a maintenance. All fish were ok the next day morning.
I since upgraded that tank to a bigger one with a skimmer. But I am not hesitate to run a angelfish tank without a skimmer again. The only reason I wanted a skimmer in that tank was because I wanted to keep the water clean in order to keep some corals.

Aquattro
04-26-2015, 04:56 AM
Honestly, even with O2 as a strong suspect, unless we monitor full time and chart values and find a sudden dip coinciding with a fish death, it's still mysterious dying fish syndrome.
The 2 in town that died. Tank is stable, nothing of any significance changes day to day, no power outages, etc. Fish survive fine for 6 nights, both die on 7th. What happened that could drop O2 to lethal levels on that night and not the others? Maybe something. Maybe not.

I did lose a MI and 2 large angels in a confirmed low flow setup overnight. I now have 2 MI doing well in a tank with surf conditions. But unless I spend a grand on an Apex DO meter and log O2 variances, we can't be sure what it or isn't happening.

Samw
04-26-2015, 05:04 AM
In my case, it was reproducible. Flame angel a couple of times. Lemonpeel angel one time. Cherub another time. Always established for many months or years. Always after skimmer off overnight. Never a problem otherwise. If I had to guess, my DO level would have been around 20% (maybe much less. Eric's clownfish tank experiment had DO levels of 15%) without a skimmer running at night with a tank with algae.

Not saying this can be the only reason for mysterious death. But it is overlooked.

By the way, what was the reason for H2O2 dosing? To deal with an algae problem?

Aquattro
04-26-2015, 05:25 AM
By the way, what was the reason for H2O2 dosing? To deal with an algae problem?

Not sure exactly. General cleaning, I think. I confirmed with the tank caretaker that it's dosed a couple hours after lights come on, so no evening impact.

Samw
04-26-2015, 08:36 AM
Ok, so what I was trying to get at is if the dosing was due to an algae outbreak and whether the dosing had just started and algae started to die. Lots of algae, low ph, higher temp (my apt reached 30C last week), decaying matter all consume oxygen at night and was looking to see if the timing lined up with the deaths on the 7th day.

To be clear, I'm not saying people can't have skimmerless successful tanks with angels. Tanks can be aerated by means other than skimmers. That just means those skimmerless tanks didn't have hypoxic conditions. It doesn't mean other people's tanks don't have hypoxic conditions for some demanding fish on a bad day.

Anyhow, I know I'm beating a dead horse and have not been convincing enough. Maybe I'll have more to add when I get a chance to do some experiments on my own tank and intentionally lower my DO in a controlled way to see how my fish will react. Anyone know any biology students at UBC with access to a respirometer that want to do some research on reef fish hypoxia?

Aquattro
04-26-2015, 02:10 PM
Ok, so what I was trying to get at is if the dosing was due to an algae outbreak and whether the dosing had just started and algae started to die.

Ah. No, I'm told that there is about as little algae as you can get in that tank. The owner really doesn't like algae :) I think he has one little strand of bryopsis.

Aquattro
04-30-2015, 05:00 AM
So back to the saga that is MIs. Today they started a bit of swatting at each other, so I may have to break the set soon. Not sure which one to keep, tough call. Big one is fatter, eats mysis better. Small one is still a bit skinny, but loves pellets and fits tank better. Also not keen to rehome one to hear it died a week later. In hindsight, ordering a spare might not have been #1 smart idea.

gregzz4
04-30-2015, 05:04 AM
What do you feed more ? What's the more convenient fish for you ?

As you know, I gave up months ago on fish that needed specific feedings

Aquattro
04-30-2015, 05:07 AM
I don't much care, I'll feed whatever the fish needs. I figure it's not so convenient for fish to be locked in my glass box, so whatever makes life easier for them gets done. On that note, anyone know the cost of oysters?? lol

don.ald
04-30-2015, 03:12 PM
So back to the saga that is MIs. Today they started a bit of swatting at each other, so I may have to break the set soon. Not sure which one to keep, tough call. Big one is fatter, eats mysis better. Small one is still a bit skinny, but loves pellets and fits tank better. Also not keen to rehome one to hear it died a week later. In hindsight, ordering a spare might not have been #1 smart idea.

Multiple MI aquariums is the answer

reefwars
04-30-2015, 03:18 PM
Yeah seems to me the issue is not enough idols :)

Aquattro
04-30-2015, 03:30 PM
They're cheap, maybe I should get more??

daplatapus
04-30-2015, 03:31 PM
Ah, this is now leading to MMITS - Multiple Moorish Idol Tank Syndrome


I'm telling you, this type of thing needs a vaccine

Aquattro
04-30-2015, 03:32 PM
Ah, this is now leading to MMITS - Multiple Moorish Idol Tank Syndrome


I'm telling you, this type of thing needs a vaccine

Vaccines kill, dontchaknow??

Aquattro
05-07-2015, 05:22 PM
1 month anniversary, both fish doing well, getting along, eating almost everything. The thinner guy is filling in well, and fighting seems to have stopped. One eats pellets, not too fond of mysis, the other snarfs the mysis and doesn't touch pellets. Both eating nori and any fresh shellfish I add.

Overall, I'm starting to feel that these guys won't drop dead any moment.

Doug
05-07-2015, 06:01 PM
:thumb:

Bblinks
05-08-2015, 12:56 AM
1 month anniversary, both fish doing well, getting along, eating almost everything. The thinner guy is filling in well, and fighting seems to have stopped. One eats pellets, not too fond of mysis, the other snarfs the mysis and doesn't touch pellets. Both eating nori and any fresh shellfish I add.

Overall, I'm starting to feel that these guys won't drop dead any moment.

Good stuff buddy. Are they getting along good? Is the myth of keeping them in pairs true or do they still fight?

Aquattro
05-08-2015, 01:03 AM
Good stuff buddy. Are they getting along good? Is the myth of keeping them in pairs true or do they still fight?

Hard to say still. They have bouts of swatting, but nothing serious. But most people that complain of them fighting and eating things say it happens after a few months. I'll keep them paired as long as I can, hopefully they bond and live peacefully together.

Aquattro
05-08-2015, 01:05 AM
Now that I think about it, I'm lucky with pairing. I have 2 pairs of talbots, a pair of clowns, a pair of cleaners and now these guys. The only fish not paired is a single talbots, which I'll try to find a potential mate for soon.

Oh, and a yellow tang. He's an ass.

Doug
05-08-2015, 01:37 AM
Hard to say still. They have bouts of swatting, but nothing serious. But most people that complain of them fighting and eating things say it happens after a few months. I'll keep them paired as long as I can, hopefully they bond and live peacefully together.


Maybe they are he & she. :mrgreen:

Aquattro
05-27-2015, 12:53 AM
Update: Both fish still doing well, although I had a bit of a scare. Alk hit 15dkh and that appeared to affect them. Breathing really hard and no appetite for about a week. I got the alk thing sorted out, and both are now doing well. Still getting along as a pair, always together and rarely swatting anymore. I had to turn the flow down, shattered a bulb 14" off the surface -lol

I'll get some pics as soon as I find my camera.

Aquattro
06-19-2015, 02:41 PM
If anyone suggests that MIs don't eat SPS, they're lying :razz:

At least one of mine has developed a healthy appetite for polyps. Such food pigs, amazing how much they eat.

lastlight
06-19-2015, 03:48 PM
sounds like my version of a matted filefish. sorry to hear that after all the effort you put into this.

Bblinks
06-19-2015, 04:02 PM
If anyone suggests that MIs don't eat SPS, they're lying :razz:

At least one of mine has developed a healthy appetite for polyps. Such food pigs, amazing how much they eat.

Oh no....that's not too good, is it sucking on the polyps or actually eating them? So...relocation?

Aquattro
06-19-2015, 04:50 PM
Oh no....that's not too good, is it sucking on the polyps or actually eating them? So...relocation?

They've stripped my sunset milli bare :) Not sure I can relocate it, it's well encrusted!!

hunggi74
06-19-2015, 05:26 PM
They've stripped my sunset milli bare :) Not sure I can relocate it, it's well encrusted!!

I'm pretty sure he was talking relocating the MIs. He just wants yours too:lol:

Aquattro
06-19-2015, 05:37 PM
I'm pretty sure he was talking relocating the MIs. He just wants yours too:lol:

Ya, I know :) No, fish are staying, it's only coral. I can grow more if I need to.

Bblinks
06-19-2015, 05:52 PM
I'm pretty sure he was talking relocating the MIs. He just wants yours too:lol:

Ya, I know :) No, fish are staying, it's only coral. I can grow more if I need to.

Ding it....lol

Ram3500
06-24-2015, 05:47 AM
They've stripped my sunset milli bare :) Not sure I can relocate it, it's well encrusted!!

I have the just experienced a polyp eating idol as well. I purchased one from jl three week ago. I have always wanted one and felt I was up for the challenge he was eating pellets at jl I just couldn't resist.

When I first interduced him to to my tank he got picked on by my yellow tang for a good week and a half he got a nasty cut from the tangs spine I thought he was a goner for sure.

This last week he was accepted by the other tank mates and has made a full recovery. Unfortunately when I came home yesterday I noticed he was swimming around the tank like a boss I was so impressed for a minute and then I saw him going nuts all over my pink lemonade :eek:

I am definitely having second thoughts about him I knew the there was some risk but I was hoping he would eat some zoa ,digi or birdsnest and leave the acros alone.

Aquattro
06-24-2015, 05:50 AM
I find that as long as I keep food in the tank, the damage is minimized. It's only one that picks, and only on a couple pieces, so I'll tolerate it. But I feed nori before work, auto feeder dumping pellets every 90 minutes until I get home, then more nori, and mysis after dinner.
My wild zoas are gone, same with palys. They eat some algae too, so that's a good thing ) Overall, they're an amazing pair of fish and I'll deal with the nipping. Just have to increase the coral growth a bit to keep up -lol

WarDog
06-24-2015, 06:52 AM
Wow, that's a lot of food.

Don't you know corals are where it's at right now? Pfffft... who keeps fish? :lol:

Aquattro
06-24-2015, 01:59 PM
Meh, kinda done with corals. Fish are cool, and I can't rehome these guys without fear that someone would kill them. Figure I ordered them directly for my tank, it's my responsibility to look after them. I know, weird, right??

Doug
06-24-2015, 03:27 PM
Good for you Brad. Im the same. Couple times I have removed corals or my clams because of my fish. The fish, such as my 5yr old copperband meant more than the corals which found good homes. Like you I felt it was my responsibility.

George
06-24-2015, 05:51 PM
Meh, kinda done with corals. Fish are cool...

Totally agree.

Aquattro
06-29-2015, 02:13 AM
Ok, I may just toss morals aside here, these guys are stripping the tank. Arg.

Myka
06-29-2015, 02:16 AM
Ugh!

Aquattro
06-29-2015, 02:17 AM
Ugh!

Ya. That. Stoopid fish..

Doug
06-29-2015, 02:23 AM
That sucks Brad. As we once said nice fish are better than a few corals but then there,s a limit. When my attempt at a butterfly was eating my sps polyps I freaked out, removed him and sold him. Now my little copper band is a perfect resident.

Bblinks
06-29-2015, 04:02 AM
Sigh. Sorry to hear Brad, I guess it's just matter of time. I am worried now.

Ram3500
06-29-2015, 05:10 AM
I had to return mine to jl I think he is more happy there any way . He will have lots of visitors ever day and I know he will get top of the line care. My three week rental had its ups and downs next time when I read reef safe with caution I will know what that truly means. Hopefully he finds a better home fowlr.

Aquattro
06-29-2015, 05:13 AM
I wouldn't even mind nipping polyps, but they're cleaning branches off. I have some bites right into skeleton.
But I'm kind of stuck, I don't know anyone with a FO tank that can keep them, or at least keep them alive. Nobody with coral, except maybe a tank full of hammers could take them.

Doug
07-28-2015, 07:45 PM
Still eating those corals Brad?

Aquattro
07-28-2015, 08:49 PM
Still eating those corals Brad?

Oh ya, and apparently coral is nutritious. They're getting bigger by the month.

Finally have my stuff back from storage so I can take a pic of them. They is so pretty :)

Aquattro
10-07-2015, 01:46 AM
MI Update: As (sort of) expected, keeping two doesn't work. The bigger one has now pinned the smaller one in the back cave, and I'll now have to catch and rehome one of them. Too bad.

Doug
10-07-2015, 02:49 AM
Aw that sucks Brad. They were getting along so good

Myka
10-07-2015, 02:53 AM
How are the corals??

Aquattro
10-07-2015, 03:07 AM
How are the corals??

Corals are holding their own.

Big MI has now left the building, small guy is back out eating, although fairly beat up. Probably wouldn't have lasted another day.

Myka
10-07-2015, 03:16 AM
Yikes! Hopefully he heals up well.

Aquattro
10-07-2015, 03:17 AM
I think he'll be fine, eating like a pig, acting like nothing happened. I find it cool how as soon as the other left the water, he came out. I guess they can sense each other?

Samw
10-07-2015, 03:25 AM
MI Update: As (sort of) expected, keeping two doesn't work. The bigger one has now pinned the smaller one in the back cave, and I'll now have to catch and rehome one of them. Too bad.

That's a good sign. It means they are now outgrowing your tank in the sense that they are defining territory and the large one has marked the whole tank as its territory. Actually, I'm only surprised they didn't start fighting sooner. The fishes must have gained quite a lot of mass since you first bought them. No surprise to me.

Aquattro
10-07-2015, 03:56 AM
That's a good sign. It means they are now outgrowing your tank in the sense that they are defining territory and the large one has marked the whole tank as its territory. Actually, I'm only surprised they didn't start fighting sooner. The fishes must have gained quite a lot of mass since you first bought them. No surprise to me.

Agreed, I thought this would happen sooner. I guess it went long enough I thought it might last, but that's being naive, I suppose.
They have gotten a lot bigger, the big one being too large for my tank really. He's gone to a 6' tank now, so hopefully he continues to do well.

Aquattro
11-12-2015, 04:24 AM
After a long and joyful(?) experience with these guys, my frustration level at the SPS nipping is reaching critical levels. Really close to re-homing this guy, assuming I can find a good home. Stoopid fish :(

Doug
11-12-2015, 05:23 PM
Aw. Thats to bad Brad. Guess one has to make the choice eventually.

Bblinks
11-13-2015, 04:07 AM
After a long and joyful(?) experience with these guys, my frustration level at the SPS nipping is reaching critical levels. Really close to re-homing this guy, assuming I can find a good home. Stoopid fish :(

What about getting rid of just one and see? My nips at Sps when it gets hungry. Little nuggets got me trained to feed him.

gregzz4
11-13-2015, 05:31 AM
What about getting rid of just one and see? My nips at Sps when it gets hungry. Little nuggets got me trained to feed him.
He's already down to just one and is still frustrated

Bblinks
11-13-2015, 05:45 AM
He's already down to just one and is still frustrated

Missed a couple of pages lol whoops

hunggi74
11-13-2015, 10:50 AM
Missed a couple of pages lol whoops

Don't mind him... He works two jobs and is probably still pickled from Tuesday night. I know he has a beautiful MI in his tank and its predominantly an SPS tank so it can be done.

Aquattro
11-13-2015, 03:19 PM
I know he has a beautiful MI in his tank and its predominantly an SPS tank so it can be done.

Oh, for sure. Tons of people in the MI thread on RC have done it. But both of mine are non stop eaters. I hoped once I got rid of the big one the little guy would stop, but nope :) And if I feed him, he eats the whole sheet of nori in 20 minutes and goes right back to eating coral.
I have a home lined up, hopefully it works out ok for the fish.

Now I need to figure out what to replace it with.