LF Skimmer Advice

[jostafew]

Hey everyone, I'm currently battling an algae / cyano problem that's going on about two years. Granted my efforts were pretty half ass early on (new house, other priorities) but long story short it's been a long haul. The system itself is about 4 years old and in that time there always seemed to be some form of nuisance in the tank whether it be cyano, algae, dino (that sucked)... I feel like it's been an uphill battle for way too long based on other people's experiences and I'm starting to question my equipment. Right now my system is 50gal total volume, display tank is shallow so I'm light on LR / gal, DT has fine sand bed, light bio load (6 small fish, inverts), very few corals at the moment sadly... The fish are not over fed, if anything they could be fed more. Water comes from a 5 stage RODI which at its worst was showing 1ppm on the output side before changing all elements about 6 months ago.

I used to run carbon in a TLF150 reactor but now I run Rowa in there to attempt to correct the current issue. Skimmer is a Remora Pro with the Mag 3, I skim wet (tea) and I might get a quarter of the collection cup full after a good week. In my mind something just doesn't add up, if excessive nutrients aren't going into the tank via food or water (or salt), then the only alternitive is that they are not being efficiently removed from the system which brings me to my question; should I be considering a different skimmer? I have a sump and the Remora hangs off the side of that saving space, and I got it for cheap way back when so I've just run that. Now though I'm thinking about trying to pick up an Octopus NWB-110 or something like that to see what it'll do in my system because my Remora has never produced a lot of skimate and nuisance algae has almost always been a problem (much more recently though)...

I've done a lot of reading (both in print and on the web) and I don't think I'm making any big mistakes, yet the issue persists... I'd appreciate any thoughts on the matter and whether I should try to find another skimmer, thanks in advance

[Aquattro]

What is your water change regime?

[jostafew]

The last few months it's been 5gal (10%) every 2-3 weeks. Before that was the same every month or so. First couple years using IO, but switched to DD H2Ocean after a bad bucket of IO wiped out nearly all livestock in the tank. (didn't fiure out the cause of that one till it was too late)

[hfp75]

-Any chance the sun is hitting your tank?
-Skim a darker skimate...
-Rowa is good, but how much are you using and how often do you change it? Keep your PO4 at 0.1 +\- 0.05, if your running lots of Rowa and your po4 isn't dropping just keep running it, maybe your rock or sand is saturated and your slowly unsaturating it - making the system healthier.
-Google : Red Slime Remover by UltraLife. It's good stuff but shut off your skimmer till it's done it's job. I end up running it once a year'ish.
-you got a sand bed? If so how healthy is it ? Ie: what's the sand turn over rate? (Sand star, sifting goby, snails, ect) Sand shouldn't just sit......
-Ever considered running a biopellet reactor? It'll eliminate your no3.
-snails in the tank? Turbo? Turbin? Ect that consume algae?
-what's your lighting?
-if your running ro/di I'd skip the carbon.
-Your skimmer doesn't really remove no3 it removes DOCs that will break down into no3, if there's no3 in the water the best way to eliminate it is either water changes or denitrifying bacteria.

Lots of stuff to consider...

[jostafew]

Thanks for the input and the interest in my struggles. hfp75 I'll attempt to touch on the points you mentioned

- 75% of the year there is no direct sunlight on the tank, though in mid summer it does get about 15 min in the evening

- skim darker skimate... Not sure how to address that one, my Aqua C Remora's only adjustment is the height of the collection cup, and that pretty much only changes how much water it pulls out of the system. Lower and I get more watered down skimate, higher and it really doesn't pull much of anything.

- the Rowa I'm experimenting with. Currently running a TLF 150 half full, this is the 3rd batch that I've put in it in a few months. I'm still learning about measuring and removing phosphates, hence my other post regarding measuring phosphates for the purpose of algae prevention

- I will look at red slime remover. If its anything like chemiclean I have done a couple treatments of that, the first one cleaned up my tank very nicely but despite big water changes after it turned into wicked algae growth followed by more cyano.

- yes I have a sand bed, fine sand (but not the sugar), about 1-1/2" deep on average. There is not a lot of turnover there, only really done by a few smaller nassarius snails and the occasional mischievous fish. I would love to have a sand sifting star but I don't believe the system is big enough to support one. Same thing with a sand sifting goby, the display tank is about 35 gal (30" x 24" x 12") so I worry about starvation.

- no I've never considered running a bio pellet reactor, but I will now

- snails have always been a challenge for me. The most success I've had have been with the nassarius snails who live in the sandbed unless they smell food, followed by astrea and cerith snails, but it seems in both my tanks the astrea and cerith eventually die off after a few months presumable due to lack of food (because the algae gets covered in some other pest). After the recent outbreak of hair algea I brought in a lawnmower blenny which gorged itself on the algae at first, then slowly was eating less and less and eventually perished after about 6 wks, approx. the same time the latest wave of cyano came on again. The latest wave, more brown color, didn't respond to the Chemiclean like the first and heavier reddish wave did.

- lighting consists of a 250w halide and 2 24" t5's. I've been running a couple different 10k MH lamps because I like the mid-sunny day look (reminds be of being under the wanter in Hawaii), but recently changed back to a 14k lamp, though it still looks pretty close to 10k. The T5's are on for 12hrs a day, the halide about 8. The fixture is a good 18" above the tank at the moment. 300w is a lot of light over a 35gal shallow reef but I wanted to have a lot of light for when I could get things back in order and safe to have clams again. The tank used to be the same footprint at 30" x 24" but it was 24" tall and when I downsized I re-used the light fixture and just lifted it higher above the tank to reduce intensity.

- yes I run RO/DI, but if I skip the carbon isn't that just asking for premature wear on the more expensive RO membrane?

Hope these details will be helpful. I've been at this so long it would be nice to finally have a clean tank to work with again. Thanks again

[Aquattro]

The last few months it's been 5gal (10%) every 2-3 weeks. Before that was the same every month or so. First couple years using IO, but switched to DD H2Ocean after a bad bucket of IO wiped out nearly all livestock in the tank. (didn't fiure out the cause of that one till it was too late)

I would change at least 25% with that skimmer, and double that until the algae was taken care of.
I came home from out of town to a tank full of hair algae. 2 weeks and a couple 50% water changes, it was gone.
I have no algae issues with 25% regularly every 2 weeks with a high end skimmer.

[Aquattro]

Oh, and I get 3 hours of direct sunlight every day in the tank. It does not pose any problems.

[TimT]

If your rocks and sand are saturated with Phosphate the easiest, and cheapest, method to remove it is Foz Down.

Cheers,
Tim

[jostafew]

Sorry Brad, just want to make sure that I understand. Are you suggesting that I just increase the water changes or also change the skimmer for something else?

Tim, I've been watching the posts about Foz Down. Want to read a little more about how it works and how to apply but will likely be in touch.

[Skimmin]

I'd like to suggest vinegar dosing. My tank is completely void of nuissance algae. I believe keeping kh stable between 8 and 9 and keeping up with my vinegar dosing has been the biggest help of keeping algae in control. It also helps keep phosphate down. That being said a good skimmer is strongly recommended for dosing and help with nutrient export. I personally use a re-circ skimmer. I also prefer to skim wetter then dryer. Similar to weak coffee. A little darker then tea.

[Aquattro]

Sorry Brad, just want to make sure that I understand. Are you suggesting that I just increase the water changes or also change the skimmer for something else?



I would A, increase water changes just as a practice. B, I would consider bigger water changes to make up for poorer performance from the skimmer. Honestly, I found the biggest thing you can do to fix almost anything is change water. Some exceptions, but in your case, I'd be doing some 50% changes.

[reef-keeper]

I have just a quick question.... Have you been testing your water parameters to see if everything is within the desired levels? If you have how often and did you record it? Recording just show when everything went Ka-flewie and can set you on the right path.

[jostafew]

Hey Reefkeeper, here's a rundown of the mess

Back when the DT was 70 gal and I had less nuisance issues (aside from the dino) and was growing LPS and SPS and my clam was happy I was watching params every 2-4 weeks and working on methods to maintain them, usual reef keeping stuff. Then over the course of a year things started to go sideways, water changes weren't helping, livestock suffered... I downsized the DT to 35 gal to get more light for the clam. Shortly afterward we sold the condo, so I picked everything up and moved in with my mom in Abby while we waited to take possession of the house. By this point pretty much all livestock was gone, and most corals. It was at this point that I finally nailed down the cause of the illness as a bad batch of salt, but by that time it was too late. It seems extremely obvious to test the new water being put into the tank, but you just take it for granted that fresh RO water with salt = AOK... Won't make that mistake again.

Month or so later we moved into the house and set up as it is now. As part of the previous troubleshooting I was now on 100% new water and new sand (same LR). It was at this point that the nuisance problems started to get bad but I didn't have the time or the funds to do much about it. The one thing I could attribute to the sudden mess was my TDS meter reporting about ten times the amount of junk in the tapwater in Abbotsford as compared to Langley, and for the first time was actually reading something on the output side of my RODI system. Occasional param checks showed everything in line in the tank (pretty much no coral growth to move them) and never any detectable Nitrate or Silicate. Still 1ppm is not huge and I've heard of people running their tank on tap water in the GVRD which is about 15ish ppm TDS. This continued for about a year. Along the way I also had a bacterial bloom which had never happened before. A month or so with a UV sterilizer took care of that.

Fast forward to about 6 months ago and I can finally refresh my RODI cartridges. I hit the tank with a Chemiclean treatment and a 20% WC with the new filters. Tank cleaned up, but shortly thereafter algae grew like mad, followed by a slower but still very heavy growth of Cyano. Now I'm making a better effort to remove as much crap as I can when I do the regular water changes, which is slowing the regrowth of the Cyano, but hair algae is still there (buried under Cyano)....

[hfp75]

I came home from out of town to a tank full of hair algae.

Oh, and I get 3 hours of direct sunlight every day in the tank. It does not pose any problems.

Really....

I do agree that if you are having water problems start with water changes.

[Aquattro]

Really....



Ya, really :) The algae was due to things dying. Water changes cleared it up.

[hfp75]

- 75% of the year there is no direct sunlight on the tank, though in mid summer it does get about 15 min in the evening
Indirect sunlight can also have a negative impact.... 15 mins though isn't anything to worry about.

- skim darker skimate... Not sure how to address that one, my Aqua C Remora's only adjustment is the height of the collection cup, and that pretty much only changes how much water it pulls out of the system. Lower and I get more watered down skimate, higher and it really doesn't pull much of anything.
I'd error & have it on the higher side than the lower side....

- the Rowa I'm experimenting with. Currently running a TLF 150 half full, this is the 3rd batch that I've put in it in a few months. I'm still learning about measuring and removing phosphates, hence my other post regarding measuring phosphates for the purpose of algae prevention.
Stick with it and change the Rowa every month until your PO4 is down... then let the PO4 direct your changes.
Fozdown might be a consideration if your PO4 is super high (go slow with FD), but Foz Down doesn't actually get PO4 out of your tank. When you change the Rowa the PO4 is being physically pulled out of your tank - I like knowing that.

- I will look at red slime remover. If its anything like chemiclean I have done a couple treatments of that, the first one cleaned up my tank very nicely but despite big water changes after it turned into wicked algae growth followed by more cyano.
I have not used chemiclean - they might be basically the same thing.

- yes I have a sand bed, fine sand (but not the sugar), about 1-1/2" deep on average. There is not a lot of turnover there, only really done by a few smaller nassarius snails and the occasional mischievous fish. I would love to have a sand sifting star but I don't believe the system is big enough to support one. Same thing with a sand sifting goby, the display tank is about 35 gal (30" x 24" x 12") so I worry about starvation.
Initially I was worried about the same thing. I put a small sand star in my old 50g tank (36x18=648sq in) @ 1.5" sand and it did fine - its now in my larger tank it hasnt even grown much in 2 years. What you need to find is a small sand star not more than 2" across. The Goby will end up moving sand and also eating food you dump in the tank. Get a small Orange Diamond Goby. (30x24=720 sq in, the star will do fine)

- no I've never considered running a bio pellet reactor, but I will now
Or anything like sugar/vodka/biopellets/ect, it is denitrifying bacteria on steroids. I like biopellets as I don't have to dose it daily. I set it and forget it. Once a month with my "Rowa swap" I examine the pellet reactor and make sure its looking OK - sometimes I top it up but not that often. It just does its own thing & my NO3 sits at <10 probably even <5

- snails have always been a challenge for me. The most success I've had have been with the nassarius snails who live in the sandbed unless they smell food, followed by astrea and cerith snails, but it seems in both my tanks the astrea and cerith eventually die off after a few months presumable due to lack of food (because the algae gets covered in some other pest).
I like Nassarius & Cerith (prefer the back ones) they live in the sand and stir it constantly. A Turbo & Astrea/Turbins are good but they live in the rockwork and graze the rocks - two different jobs here. Once a week or two weeks (7-12 days) at night (lights out) I put 2-4 silversides into my sand sticking up 1/2 way (95 gal) and the snails and crabs go crazzy and eat them up. By morning the silver sides are completely gone. My CUC isn't starving and I don't have any algae to worry about (they eat that too) - as I said beforeI get a red Cyano once a year'ish and that gets the RSR with great results. Dont forget that snails are a nice treat for many things in the tank - you always need to be topping them back up.
After the recent outbreak of hair algea I brought in a lawnmower blenny which gorged itself on the algae at first, then slowly was eating less and less and eventually perished after about 6 wks, approx. the same time the latest wave of cyano came on again. The latest wave, more brown color, didn't respond to the Chemiclean like the first and heavier reddish wave did.
Algae eaters are a great type of fish. Before you take them home see if they eat normal food - if they wont, skip that one. They might starve out without the algae to eat.

- lighting consists of a 250w halide and 2 24" t5's. I've been running a couple different 10k MH lamps because I like the mid-sunny day look (reminds be of being under the wanter in Hawaii), but recently changed back to a 14k lamp, though it still looks pretty close to 10k. The T5's are on for 12hrs a day, the halide about 8. The fixture is a good 18" above the tank at the moment. 300w is a lot of light over a 35gal shallow reef but I wanted to have a lot of light for when I could get things back in order and safe to have clams again. The tank used to be the same footprint at 30" x 24" but it was 24" tall and when I downsized I re-used the light fixture and just lifted it higher above the tank to reduce intensity.
Old lights huw can degrade with time. I'd swap for new at least once a year & maybe more often. I was running T5s but switched to LEDs (Kessils) to get away from the bulb switches. There are Pros and Cons, I miss the light from the T5s but my lights are hassle free.

- yes I run RO/DI, but if I skip the carbon isn't that just asking for premature wear on the more expensive RO membrane?
Leave the carbon in the RO/DI. I thought you were talking about running carbon in the sump. Carbon in the RODI cleans the water just fine. You don't need to add anymore after that unless you are specifically cleaning something from the water in the tank. Old ro/di membranes can become problematic I hope they aren't all that old.

Hope these details will be helpful. I've been at this so long it would be nice to finally have a clean tank to work with again.
Stick with it and trouble shoot it....
Ironically I've got a RO 110 and it skims like a champ. I have looked at upgrading to other types (which are all probably good) but my RO has convinced me to try to stay with them. Being frugal with this hobby is important, I am on the hunt for a larger RO.

Thanks again

Hope that helps?

[hfp75]

Ya, really :) The algae was due to things dying. Water changes cleared it up.


IC, so the GHA was from excess nutrients in the water then.

[reef-keeper]

I would try a product called Re-Fresh from DrTim'saquatics.com. It is a bacteria to fight the Cyanobacteria. We all know that algae is a high nutrients problem and when you kill the Cyano you create more organic nutrients that cause a never ending cycle. So water changes more frequently and testing the phosphates every couple days. Will help lots. Re-Fresh is what I found help my massive 9 month ordeal with algae. All this with a phosphate reactor should do the trick I believe. Hope this helps.

[Aquattro]

IC, so the GHA was from excess nutrients in the water then.

Correct. sunlight has hit my tanks for 5 years, I had HA for 2 weeks after a large loss of fish

[jostafew]

hfp75 thank you very much for all the info it is very helpful, and to the other replies as well. I've got a good idea where I need to go from here, will report back with results after some time.

[jostafew]

3 week update.

Status: tank still not pretty, but very little cyano growth, diatoms significantly reduced (still wide spread, but not as thick), GHA is still there but it is hurting. I can tell the GHA is not healthy because it was coming off the rocks easier during the big cleanup tonight than it has in the past.

Changes: brought up the Alk a bit (was on the low side), continued with usual water change schedule (still struggling a bit to find time for the tank), but the big change is that I began carbon dosing. I was considering bio balls but after some reading I felt that vodka or vinegar would be easier to manage and cheaper to run, and generally gave better results. So pulled out the dosing pump, grabbed a jug of vinegar, and began dosing 7.5mL once per day (50gal total system volume). After one week I increased to two doses, and after 2 wks I increased to three. I just finished the 3rd week, and no sign of bacterial problems so I just increased to four doses per day. As much as I would like a sand sifting star, aside from the odd person's own experience all my reading tells me that it's going to be tough on the star and tough on my sand bed so I think I will hold off on that one. I do intend to pick up a goby to sift the sand though (orange diamond or similar) the next time I can get out to J&L.

The skimmer is pulling more junk out of the tank now so that tells me that the bacterial colonies are growing and as I harvest them I'm slowly pulling nutrients out of the tank. I'm sure that in the past with such established algae in the tank, the flora would consume any nitrate / phosphate / silicate before the other processes could take care of it, hence why I've never measured any detectable amounts of these substances in the tank. I feel like I'm seeing a slow and steady improvement now and will continue on this path for a while. Will update in a few weeks again.

Once more, thanks for everyone's input.

[reef-keeper]

It is a long road you are on and sounds like you are going in the right direction. I know because I'm still on that road. The road to great tank. My war seam to be a never ending , seems I win a battle then lose a couple.