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View Full Version : Another Moorish Idol bites the dust


naesco
02-28-2015, 02:09 PM
Brad, thanks for reminding all the members of this board that a Moorish Idol is one of those almost impossible to keep species that cannot be kept alive even by an experienced fish keeper like you.
We simply do not know the foods and care required to keep them alive yet. Scientists in our hobby are experimenting with their care but do not have the answer yet.

As difficult as it was for experienced reefers to patiently await the inevitable end to this MI, the result is that newbies will not go to their LFS demanding that they start bringing them in again and it's early demise meant that far fewer newbies took up the same challenge of tring to keep them

A kinder, gentler, Naesco

Aquattro
02-28-2015, 04:12 PM
A kinder, gentler, Naesco

No, same old Wayne :)

Reviewing the MI thread on RC, many people have successfully kept these, some in excess of 5 years. My last one was almost 2 years in tank, did well until I left town with no notice and forgot I had turned my pumps off.

Ordered a replacement, let's see how that goes.

And now I have a Queen song stuck in my head. thx for that :)

Madreefer
02-28-2015, 04:17 PM
I'm confused with this thread. You haven't posted in months and you come back with this. Is it a dig at Brad or just another reminder of ways to get asked to leave and never come back to our LFS?
Unfortunately most newbies won't listen to experienced reefers and will buy whatever they please cuz it "looks cool and just gotta have it"
Brads thread was useful as there was some good points raised that many of us had never been discussed on this site.

Aquattro
02-28-2015, 04:28 PM
We have to remember that many people have many different views. My view is regardless of what I do or don't do, people will always buy hard to keep fish. And they will often die.
I feel I've learned enough, and from past experience, know these can be kept, and have ordered a replacement net caught MI.

My decision was intentional, Ii didn't happen past a fish at the store and go wow, I want that there purdy fish.

My first MI was in tank for 2 years. Happiest fattest fish ever. When I moved it to my display, I turned off 2 of my 4 pumps, and the remaining were set at 10% flow. 6 hours later my daughter was airlifted to Children's Hospital and I had to leave with no notice and forgot to turn pumps back on. That is exactly what killed a fish that would have spent many more years in my tank, regardless of who wants to argue it. Low O2 killed all my large fish over my absence. Period.
From my recent experience, I have a few lessons learned, and will try again next week.

I will not argue morality with ANYONE that keeps ANY fish in a glass box in their livingroom.

Aquattro
02-28-2015, 04:57 PM
Did you know, in some countries our ornamental fish are their food. ?

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd101/reef_raf/achilles_zpsxgauw3es.jpg

Tell me the difference. I killed one MI, 2 anthias and 4 halibut this week. The first three had some chance at a partially full life in a box. The last 4 never had a chance.

straightrazorguy
02-28-2015, 05:19 PM
Tell me the difference. I killed one MI, 2 anthias and 4 halibut this week. The first three had some chance at a partially full life in a box. The last 4 never had a chance.

I agree with your reasoning, Brad. Still, I feel like a criminal every time I lose a fish...

Aquattro
02-28-2015, 05:30 PM
I agree with your reasoning, Brad. Still, I feel like a criminal every time I lose a fish...

Ya, I feel awful. I don't even think about the money, just aww, poor fish. But that's the hobby we chose. If we really felt that bad, we wouldn't have tanks.

straightrazorguy
02-28-2015, 05:34 PM
But we have tanks because most critters we put in live. Some even thrive. That's what keeps me going.

Aquattro
02-28-2015, 05:39 PM
But we have tanks because most critters we put in live. Some even thrive. That's what keeps me going.

Ya, but let's be honest here. It's a selfish endeavor. These fish would be much happier on a reef. Well, until they got eaten by something.

In the end though, everything dies. My MI may have been eaten if the fisherman hadn''t interrupted the food chain. I might have given it another 2 weeks. Maybe. Maybe not.

Keeping anything captive is wrong. It's how much wrong we can live with at the end of the day and still sleep at night.

Doug
02-28-2015, 05:40 PM
Gawd thats a terrible picture. But then reality sucks.

Aquattro
02-28-2015, 05:58 PM
But then reality sucks.

It does. And we lie to ourselves to hide from it. In between posts I'm cooking omelets for the family. Using eggs from cage raised chickens, topped with dead pig. For dinner, I'm having those dead halibut from further up in the thread. In my house built of wood that killed many things in it's acquisition. Typing using electricity from dams that killed how many creatures? ya...

Please don't preach to me about a MI taken from the ocean, with a dialogue on my experiences that just might help save just one that will be purchased regardless of Wayne's views on the world.

straightrazorguy
02-28-2015, 06:19 PM
Ya, but let's be honest here. It's a selfish endeavor. These fish would be much happier on a reef. Well, until they got eaten by something.

In the end though, everything dies. My MI may have been eaten if the fisherman hadn''t interrupted the food chain. I might have given it another 2 weeks. Maybe. Maybe not.

Keeping anything captive is wrong. It's how much wrong we can live with at the end of the day and still sleep at night.

Yup, it's selfish, all right. And captivity is wrong.

And I agree, fishing for food is far more destructive. So, by eating less fish I can keep more in my tank, right? I'd rather go all vegetarian than give up my tank.

Aquattro
02-28-2015, 06:23 PM
Yup, it's selfish, all right. And captivity is wrong.

And I agree, fishing for food is far more destructive. So, by eating less fish I can keep more in my tank, right? I'd rather go all vegetarian than give up my tank.

Yes. If you eat nothing but carrots, you can have a moorish idol. :)

Fishing for fish is pretty destructive, regardless their use. We all want the cheap fish, which are almost all caught with cyanide. These cyanide fishermen are not overly selective in what they blast. Cyanide tang from Phillipines, $2. Net caught tang from Hawaii, $20. Which one gets consumed by our hobby the most?

Aquattro
02-28-2015, 06:29 PM
I'll add this, in defense of my recklessness.

Talking to the supplier last night, he estimates about 20% success rate with MIs.

So let's just, for argument's sake, assume Sam and I are not entirely insane and O2 levels for these fish is a factor. Now anyone trying a MI adds an airstone, or some other mechanism to increase O2. Success rate jumps to 25%. Is that not a good thing?
Let's face it, the fish will get caught, they will get sold, and they will be a constant in the market. Always have been, always will be. My irresponsible act might save a couple more per hundred caught, because I talked about it.

I can sleep at night with this.

straightrazorguy
02-28-2015, 06:35 PM
I'll add this, in defense of my recklessness.

I can sleep at night with this.

I'll second that!

garwood
02-28-2015, 07:05 PM
if you really want to see what a dispicable species we really are go to MERCY FOR ANIMALS web site and look at the videos.

Aquattro
02-28-2015, 07:18 PM
Here's another scenario. This evolves from me keeping birds years ago.

I'm house sitting for a friend in Costa Rica, out watering the garden. Overhead goes a flock of parrots, which look a lot like some I used to keep. I watched them fly over the canopy, across the lagoon and miles into the distance. What size cage is appropriate to keep these birds in? We do this with fish....

I have to say, I do admire Wayne's passion to speak up about things he strongly believes in. More people should. Maybe one day we won't keep things locked up. Sadly, most of us will never see that day...('cause we're really old hehe)

naesco
02-28-2015, 08:51 PM
No, same old Wayne :)

Reviewing the MI thread on RC, many people have successfully kept these, some in excess of 5 years. My last one was almost 2 years in tank, did well until I left town with no notice and forgot I had turned my pumps off.

Ordered a replacement, let's see how that goes.

And now I have a Queen song stuck in my head. thx for that :)

I am sorry. I really try to keep on top of all things marine but it looks as though I missed the study or article that changed the chances of MI survival. Were scientists or experts able to develop some type of new food or figure out how to keep them alive in some manner?
Would you please share the link to the study or article so we can all benefit?

I know you intended the tang pic to be humour but the pic was very hard for me to to look at.

Wayne

Aquattro
02-28-2015, 09:14 PM
I am sorry. I really try to keep on top of all things marine but it looks as though I missed the study or article that changed the chances of MI survival. Were scientists or experts able to develop some type of new food or figure out how to keep them alive in some manner?
Would you please share the link to the study or article so we can all benefit?

I know you intended the tang pic to be humour but the pic was very hard for me to to look at.

Wayne

Not sure I posted an article, or suggested an article, or otherwise gave anything but a stat based on feedback from a supplier.

Many people report 5 years plus with these using NLS pellets. Only one guy reports feeding sponge regularly.
I bet a lot more clownfish die in captivity than moorish idols. I don't see you championing their cause.
Sorry Wayne, but your "opinion" means squat to me, as long as you have/had a tank of your own. I killed a fish, you torture them for longer periods.

And no, the pic wasn't meant in humour at all. It was meant as a glimpse into where fish end up. They're food for humans. Sometimes we adopt them and keept them trapped in a box for our enjoyment, but they're fish. They have been removed from the ocean since we figured out how, and they will be removed for as long as they or us exist.
If my keeping a fish and posting about it helps save one that is going to get purchased anyway, I'm glad.

Lastly, I have no problem discussing ethics of fish-keeping, or life for that matter, but if you're going to be a dink in your replies, I have no interest in talking to you.

jorjef
02-28-2015, 09:22 PM
Sorry Wayne, but your "opinion" means squat to me, as long as you have/had a tank of your own. I killed a fish, you torture them for longer periods.




BOOM..... Plus one million, billion, zillion. Put that in your ethical pipe and smoke it.

Wheelman76
02-28-2015, 11:15 PM
Not sure I posted an article, or suggested an article, or otherwise gave anything but a stat based on feedback from a supplier.



Many people report 5 years plus with these using NLS pellets. Only one guy reports feeding sponge regularly.

I bet a lot more clownfish die in captivity than moorish idols. I don't see you championing their cause.

Sorry Wayne, but your "opinion" means squat to me, as long as you have/had a tank of your own. I killed a fish, you torture them for longer periods.



And no, the pic wasn't meant in humour at all. It was meant as a glimpse into where fish end up. They're food for humans. Sometimes we adopt them and keept them trapped in a box for our enjoyment, but they're fish. They have been removed from the ocean since we figured out how, and they will be removed for as long as they or us exist.

If my keeping a fish and posting about it helps save one that is going to get purchased anyway, I'm glad.



Lastly, I have no problem discussing ethics of fish-keeping, or life for that matter, but if you're going to be a dink in your replies, I have no interest in talking to you.


Well Said Brad

kien
02-28-2015, 11:20 PM
It's a sad, sad truth, but marine fish "bite the dust" all the time.. Even in the hands of well intentioned and educated hobbyists a clownfish can "bite the dust" :cry:

reeferfulton
02-28-2015, 11:25 PM
brad.
i agree with the above statement.
none of us can judge anyone else if we have fish in a glass box. and that includes tank raised fish.
as all fish would have better lives or at least the lives they were ment to have if they were in the wild.

That's why all fish keepers alike should just keep the fish they want. regardless of tank size. i think tank size is less of a factor then people.make it out to be.

would an extra 50 or 100 gallons have made a difference. with this MI .....not likely.

good luck with the next MI.

kien
02-28-2015, 11:29 PM
Also, don't throw stones if you swim in a glass-box.

Proteus
03-01-2015, 01:03 AM
We've all killed a few fish. For me though it's how the fish came to its end. I take every precaution I can to prevent unnecessary deaths, Imo and strictly Imo if you killed a fish out of neglect then I would really suggest not buying another. If you did what you could to save a fish but it still perishes then no issues trying again.

intarsiabox
03-01-2015, 01:03 AM
Did you know, in some countries our ornamental fish are their food. ?

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd101/reef_raf/achilles_zpsxgauw3es.jpg

Tell me the difference. I killed one MI, 2 anthias and 4 halibut this week. The first three had some chance at a partially full life in a box. The last 4 never had a chance.

This reminded me of the photos Dez posted awhile back. He went spear fishing someplace tropical (can't recall where) and posted photos of him eating tangs and said they were delicious! I never really got why some people think it's okay to eat ugly fish but not pretty fish. People just eat what's in their own back yards. I wonder if habitants in the Philippines complain about us eating salmon? Good luck with MI2!

lockrookie
03-01-2015, 01:21 AM
Good luck with MI2!


I read that as mission impossible 2 now I have the urge to watch the movies.

I too wish you luck I still want a MI if anyone can do it you can

Aquattro
03-01-2015, 01:38 AM
This reminded me of the photos Dez posted awhile back.

He posted the fish display at Walmart in Cabo. Bunch of tangs.

Aquattro
03-01-2015, 01:39 AM
We've all killed a few fish. For me though it's how the fish came to its end. I take every precaution I can to prevent unnecessary deaths, Imo and strictly Imo if you killed a fish out of neglect then I would really suggest not buying another. If you did what you could to save a fish but it still perishes then no issues trying again.

Agreed. I have a strong feeling I know what happened, and it's something to avoid next time. In a nutshell, I think I poisoned the whole QT. All fish are now gone.

Reef Pilot
03-01-2015, 03:02 AM
I was a meanie today, too. Caught a nice looking cutthroat off my dock. But after getting the hook out he flipped out of my hand and back into the water. Lucky him, I was looking forward to a nice trout meal tonight, although he wasn't the biggest (just a 12 incher). Heading out there tomorrow again, maybe he has a bigger brother that I can catch.

TimT
03-01-2015, 04:08 AM
Seeing the bucket of Achilles reminded me of a joke I heard once.

"How do you pronounce Achilles? ... I kill these." Said by a large importer of tropical fish in LA.

Speaking of low oxygen levels at night in aquariums. It might be an idea to not dose carbon sources late evening and at night because the bacteria consume a lot of oxygen. They also lower the redox.

Aquattro
03-01-2015, 04:11 AM
You're killing me Tim :) lol

Ya, I think it's well known not to dose carbon at night for that reason. Gonna add don't treat CP in QT with lots of zoas in the tank :)

Nobody really believes the O2 theory other than Sam and I, but I'm confident I can keep one of these in my tank.

TimT
03-01-2015, 04:20 AM
Gonna add don't treat CP in QT with lots of zoas in the tank

That's the problem with being on the bleeding side of a cutting edge hobby. It's knowledge by experience.

Don't feel bad... I once learned the hard way not to acclimate boxfish with other fish. Also Frogfish can eat fish larger than themselves and Frogfish will eat Lionfish the same size. No respect amongst lawyers oops I mean predators. ;)

Aquattro
03-01-2015, 04:24 AM
That's the problem with being on the bleeding side of a cutting edge hobby. It's knowledge by experience.

Don't feel bad... I once learned the hard way not to acclimate boxfish with other fish. Also Frogfish can eat fish larger than themselves and Frogfish will eat Lionfish the same size. No respect amongst lawyers oops I mean predators. ;)

Ya, lessons are hard in this territory. But if my hypothesis is correct, I'll have better luck, or worse case, learn something else. If keep killing things tho, I might need to hire a lawyer. Know any?

Reef Pilot
03-01-2015, 04:46 AM
Experience is a hard teacher. First comes the test, then the lesson... A flying saying that could apply to reefing, too.

mikellini
03-01-2015, 04:31 PM
You're killing me Tim :) lol

Ya, I think it's well known not to dose carbon at night for that reason. Gonna add don't treat CP in QT with lots of zoas in the tank :)

Nobody really believes the O2 theory other than Sam and I, but I'm confident I can keep one of these in my tank.

I'm telling you, reducing temp a little (to 77-78) might be worth a shot too...

I bolus dose my kalk-vinegar just before lights on... should I be waiting til middle of the day? I actually thought that when I get the dosing pump set up, I would split it into three doses over the course of the night to give pH a little boost... now I'm second guessing that

Aquattro
03-01-2015, 04:35 PM
No, temp is fine. It's 78-79, which gives me better growth on the coral. O2 levels that Sam and I are talking about are not in that 3% range you mentioned.
Dosing just before lights on is probably not an issue, and with most fish in a tank not heavily stocked, likely not really an issue after lights out. Could be, but not likely, depending on load.